lpg - which one?

[john le quesne]

We have just bought our 1st motorhome - a pioneer Magellan 2005. It came with no gas bottles and now that I have retired, I am keen to try and set up a system which will allow a couple of months travel abroad on a regular basis, with minimum hassle re the gas situation. After years of drifting around the French coast in old boats we converted our little cooker to Camping Gaz as it was always so available even in the more remote areas. However the fittings on the van are for 2x 6kg propane bottles with a truma regulator. Is propane easy to find in Europe, or should I change the fittings to camping Gaz? I think that the appliances will work off either butane or propane. I would welcome any advice! john

[shallowthroat]

It's not cheap and I'm a bit of a newbie myself but I've decided on a Gaslow refillable bottles system. I too have two 6kg cylinders and when one shows empty (there's a guage that tells you) I shall fill up at one of the many petrol stations and gas suppliers which sell LPG gas. When you fill up it automatically fills up both cylinders to 80% of their volume - this is some kind of safety feature it seems.

 

You use I believe, a propane/butane mixture and it's the same pump for filling up the growing number of cars and vans that run on LPG. In my neck of the woods there are many suppliers including the nearest petrol station, which is one mile away.

 

Advantages - no more lugging heavy cylinders and worrying about different systems and cylinder replacement when abroad. Much cheaper gas!

 

Disadvantages - only one that I can think of, the initial cost, which may be about £350.

 

Finally, I shall always carry a length of tubing with a Camping Gaz regulator attached so that in the very unlike event of not being able to find LPG, I can always buy a Gaz cylinder, but from what I've read I doubt that I'll ever need to call on it.

[Mel E]

As an alternative, try MH Autogas (advertise in MMM and are at most shows). When I compared prices, they were significantly cheaper than Gaslow for a somewhat better system. Their cylinders incorporate a float which gives a genuine reading of how full the cylinder actually is - a major boon compared with pressure devices that simply do not work.

[robin]

shallowthroat - 2006-12-06 11:16 AM

 

It's not cheap and I'm a bit of a newbie myself but I've decided on a Gaslow refillable bottles system. I too have two 6kg cylinders and when one shows empty (there's a guage that tells you) I shall fill up at one of the many petrol stations and gas suppliers which sell LPG gas. When you fill up it automatically fills up both cylinders to 80% of their volume - this is some kind of safety feature it seems.

 

.

 

We have used Gaslow cylinders for 18 months, and generally it has worked out fine filling up with Autogas here and in France. Make sure you get the external refillable kit fitted, as many places frown on the practice filling up the bottles directly.

 

I have had a couple of problems filling up - I am told that the supplier forecourt pumps need replacing regularly, otherwise they don't provide sufficient pressure to release the valve on the consumer filler. I don't how true that is, but it fits with my experience.

 

You also have to be careful with the butane / propane mix in southern Europe. Apparantly, you can get a high propane level, which will then not gas in cold climes.

 

[Guest Frank Wilkinson]

I thought that propane is the one that will gas in colder weather? I too am having Gaslow fitted. It should have been done on Monday but there's one part missing from the order. It will have a filling point in the wall of the MH and adapters for France and the rest of Europe.

[david lloyd]

Hi John and welcome to the wonderful world of motorhoming.

 

We changed our motorhome this year and decided to invest in two 11kg gaslow refillable cylinders.

 

I had them fitted at Autogas2000 in Thirsk, North Yorkshire. Steve there used his own filling point which is much smaller than the gaslow one and fitted it in the side skirt (which is quite heavy gauge aluminium) but I would avoid having one fitted in the gas locker door as the continual flexing of the hoses can cause them to leak eventually.

 

Have to say it has changed our life somewhat in that we no longer worry about running our of gas here or abroad, no more lugging cylinders about or even changing the regulator over to the spare bottle as we have a manual changeover with gas gauge incorporated in it.

 

The price of the gas is about half that we were paying for calor and is widely available.

 

There is a small issue with regard to filling abroad. Generally, the further south you go the more butane is added to the mix (in the pumps) - this works fine over there in the milder climate but, if you tried to use the same mix here in mid winter you are likely to have a problem as the butane does not gas below freezing. Lpg supplies here are (I believe) 100% propane so that isn't a problem and we just make sure we don't bring back two full cylinders of gas from southern europe in the depths of winter! So far we have not encountered a problem.

 

Good luck with the new van and enjoy your trips, Regards, David

[livewire]

Frank Wilkinson - 2006-12-06 2:05 PM

 

I thought that propane is the one that will gas in colder weather? I too am having Gaslow fitted. It should have been done on Monday but there's one part missing from the order. It will have a filling point in the wall of the MH and adapters for France and the rest of Europe.

 

No, it's butane. It has a larger molecule than propane and therefore has the higher boiling point.

[Dave Newell]

Just for the record, butane has a higher calorific value of 121 MJ per cubic metre, is stored as a liquid at 1.9 Bar (28PSI) and its boiling point is +2 to -2 degrees C. Propane has a calorific value of 93-95 MJ per cubic metre, is stored as a liquid at 6.8 Bar (100 PSI) and has a boiling point of -42 to -45 degrees C.

 

D.

[Mickt]

Whoes been on a gas course then (lol)

[Dave Newell]

Mickt - 2006-12-06 3:35 PM

 

Whoes been on a gas course then (lol)

 

That'll be me then. (lol) (lol) (lol)

 

D.

[Brian Kirby]

john le quesne - 2006-12-06 10:13 AM We have just bought our 1st motorhome - a pioneer Magellan 2005. It came with no gas bottles and now that I have retired, I am keen to try and set up a system which will allow a couple of months travel abroad on a regular basis, with minimum hassle re the gas situation. After years of drifting around the French coast in old boats we converted our little cooker to Camping Gaz as it was always so available even in the more remote areas. However the fittings on the van are for 2x 6kg propane bottles with a truma regulator. Is propane easy to find in Europe, or should I change the fittings to camping Gaz? I think that the appliances will work off either butane or propane. I would welcome any advice! john

All the following (except 7) assumes you have a fixed, bulkhead mounted, regulator giving 30mb pressure and suitable for either butane or propane.  If not, you'll need different regulators for the different gases, and may need to confirm your appliances are suitable for use on either.

1 Go for propane, not butane, as advised above.  Propane will always gas, butane may not do so when it's cold.  Camping Gaz is butane.

2 Consider what time of year you expect to be travelling, and for how long.  2x6Kg bottles should be fine for 8-10 weeks in summer - provided you use mains hookups where available, don't use the gas endlessly for hot water and don't always cook 3 course meals with roast joints!  In winter you'll need the heating more often, so gas consumption will rise.  But then, spring in Norway is a bit chillier than spring on the Med, so the wheres and whens of your proposed travels are relevant.

3 Consider buying one gas cylinder in France.  The gas is generally cheaper than in UK, and so is the cylinder hire contract.  (Look at the supermarkets for what is popular, though Butagaz seems fairly widely available.)  You'll need a new flexible hose to match the French bottle union (called a "lyre" in French).  You're almost bound to cross, or dip into, France as you come and go, so exchanging cylinders shouldn't be a problem.  The other cylinder can then be changed as and when in UK, and you can play with which is the service, and which the reserve, bottle, for best effect.

4 Consider also the translucent BP gas bottles.  Lighter than the metal ones, and you can see how much gas you have.  They are supposed to be being rolled out across Europe, so in theory can be exchanged across frontiers, but I don't know how comprehensive the cover is at present.  Doubtless BP gas will know.

5 I'd only say look hard at the arithmetic before shelling out for a Gaslow system.  The payback is only the difference between the cost of a bottle of gas from Bloggs gas, and the same amount of Autogas.  It just seems to me you'd have to buy an awful lot of Autogas to recoup the cost of the Gaslow installation.

6 Also be aware that Autogas formulations vary around Europe.  So far as I know, all Autogas is a mixture of propane and butane.  Some people appear to have had problems with the liquid butane content accumulating in their bottles in cold weather because it can't gas off.  This has the effect of reducing the space available for propane, and so erodes the total capacity of your reserves.  Annoying in winter when you want the maximum available!  It also seems the formulation may be changed in some countries - presumably the colder ones - in winter, to a mix with a higher propane content.  Whereas this is generally fine, it ain't that much use if what is in your bottles was bought in summer, and has a high butane content.

7 If you want to travel far and wide without reference to time of year, you'd probably get better value for money, and definitely greater flexibility and capacity, by installing a bulk gas tank rather than Gaslow.  They fill with Autogas, so the same caveats re formulation apply.

Hope this helps.

[robin]

david lloyd - 2006-12-06 2:31 PM

 

Steve there used his own filling point which is much smaller than the gaslow one and fitted it in the side skirt (which is quite heavy gauge aluminium) but I would avoid having one fitted in the gas locker door as the continual flexing of the hoses can cause them to leak eventually.

 

 

David,

I think our Weinsberg is a re-baged version of the Knaus Sun Ti - I can confirm that the side skirt is heavy guage aluminimum, it took the fitter a 'significant' amount of time (and two drill batteries) to drill through for the Gaslow filler.

 

I also agree with the gas locker door comment, we has that on our previous 'van and I was never happy with it.

Cheers

 

[john le quesne]

Many thanks for your very detailed and helpful reply, it has given me much to think about. my first instinct is to go with your suggestion of sticking with propane - and buying one of our cylinders from France as you recommend. This will at least give us a "starting kit" until we have got used to this new way of living !

[Clive]

Took the hint then Dave?

 

We went to a proper bolted underneath steel bulk gas tank, this has an external (in the cab) accurate level gague. The bits came from MTH Autogas. Featured some months back in MMM.

 

Have a look at :-

http://www.motts.dsl.pipex.com/GASKIT.htm

 

[jupe]

Yes we went through all the options and like Clive also decided to have a bulk tank fitted underneath by MTH but we had them do the work. We are about to go away now for 6 months but one thing we are not sure about is the availability of lpg in Spain as a couple of people have said it's harder to find there. Haven't been successful in finding any info re garage locations - anybody able to help.

Thanks - Jupe (also WORMS and Basingstoke based).

[Don Madge]

jupe - 2006-12-09 4:18 PM

 

Yes we went through all the options and like Clive also decided to have a bulk tank fitted underneath by MTH but we had them do the work. We are about to go away now for 6 months but one thing we are not sure about is the availability of lpg in Spain as a couple of people have said it's harder to find there. Haven't been successful in finding any info re garage locations - anybody able to help.

Thanks - Jupe (also WORMS and Basingstoke based).

 

Hi Jupe,

 

Here's a couple of sites that might be useful.

 

http://tinyurl.com/3zftp

 

http://www.spainautogas.com/

 

http://www.gas-tankstellen.info/menu.php?language=en_US then select Spain.

 

if you are going any where near Portugal it's freely available on the Algarve.

 

Don

[michele]

Dear Mr Gas Man Dave ,

 

As Oxygen is a Gas I take it we will be ok up the mountains ? & on reading all of this which mostly has gone over my head I have tried very hard to understand as it really is interesting . We use Propane I asume that this will not freeze in Chamonix or any where we hit the colder weather . Have I got this correct .

 

Regards

[Clive]

Yes,

 

[michele]

Thanks clive ,

 

Was a little worried we don't go away long enough yet to worry about running out of gas so two 13kg cylinders do us just fine . The oxygen I have asked before I don't remeber the reply other than it was sensible and a good reply informative . It's old age or Dyslexia which one I am not sure .but my brain is in a jumble I know what I want to say but does not always come out right.

 

Cheers Clive.

 

[Dave Newell]

Hi Michele, the oxygen shouldn't be a problem for you and propane is the right gas to use in cold weather.

 

If I remeber correctly you're about the same age as me so I sincerely hope it isn't old age.

 

D.

[michele]

Your right probably the dyslexia. I try with all my heart to understand most i always like to read and learn . i think it's aman thing but i don't want to put down the women that do understand it . It's just me that has a problem i usually get the jist of it but sometimes it becomes to technical for me .

 

usually Hubby is in the background he is like you lot so when I get stuck about something someone say's i usually ask him . He then tut's and explains. In between sleeping and work . I do like to read though then try to get my head around it all. :-( not sure if I always come to the right conclusion .

Ha ha. better to ask ...regards