Has anyone tried joint ownership?

[Chaswick]

I've already posted a new thread asking why there is such a price difference in price between Autotrail and Elddis, but I also have another question.

 

We are considering buying a motorhome jointly with another couple. We realise that it will have to be registered and insured (with named drivers) in one name only, but it seems a good way of maximising its use.

 

Both couples are sixtyish, "semi-retired", with grown-up children. We can take time off from our part-time jobs for extended holidays, but not to such an extent as disappearing to southern Spain for the winter.

 

At the moment we are envisaging that engine/tyre/mechanical repair costs would be apportioned to each couple depending on the mileage each has done in a year, but there are other costs to take into account. For instance, in an extreme (but unlikely) case one couple might take-off most weekends to a site just down the road - incurring little mechanical wear but obviously contributing to internal wear (and tear!).

 

Another scenario could be that one couple spends two months driving right round Europe, clocking up a huge mileage. Although they would be penalised by contributing more for mechanical repairs this doesn't take account of the reduction in the residual value of the motorhome due to the high mileage.

 

This brings me on to another difficulty. What happens when one couple wants to get out of the arrangement, and the other wants to buy them out? How do you fairly value the motorhome at that stage?

 

Has anyone any experience of this kind of arrangement? The other couple are great friends of ours and we'd like to keep it this way. The last thing we want to happen is for it all to end in tears! :-S

[Nobby]

The other couple are great friends of ours and we'd like to keep it this way. The last thing we want to happen is for it all to end in tears! :-S

 

In that case it's quite simple really - forget the idea. If the friendship is as important as that, then you must do what you can to protect it and that means avoiding such a high risk proposition.

 

You have outlined some of the potential problems yourself, so I suspect you already know the answer here anyway.

 

If you want to fall out with your friends without incurring any initial expenditure - try wife swapping! (not speaking from personal experience).

 

Nobby

[michele]

Chaswick,

 

I hate to put a dampner on things but you say you would like to remain good friends . What do you do if say the other couple go away for 2 months clock up the milage have a breakdown pay for the repairs come home. you then take it for a weekend and the same problem occurs where it has not been repaired correctly and it's going to cost that much again ? Who get's the blame . Would you not find yourself in the position of saying well it broke when you had it . The couple saying yes but we had it fixed and now you have to pay for it . You would feel hard done by if this happened on a couple of occasions. I know this is the worst case senario but its hard to remain friends .when real cash comes into it . just a thought ?

 

Could you not both buy a cheaper model each and holiday together enjoying each others company ? Or a smaller model .

 

Good luck anyway in what ever you decide to do .

[Guest JudgeMental]

This reminds me of when a few years ago a question arose in the media about the feasibility of the “tour de France” starting in London. A straw pole of Parisians answered yes! yes! yes! – a great idea! Then the interviewers came to London. Oh no the disruption the crowds the traffic! Terrible, terrible...

 

Go for it, of course sharing can work as long as ground rules are set. As I have children in school and my wife works in education if I could find some one who was interested in off season (outside school holidays) use it could work for me as well. Obviously there could be problems but surely not insurmountable ones. :-D

[mansell]

I agree with that, we have no intention of going anywhere while the kids are on holidays, done that got the teashirt so in a case like that it might work. The problems I see are STUFF we have stuff that lives in the van if you see what I am saying.

[enodreven]

Hi,

 

They do it quiet a lot with narrowboats, but from what i can understand they draw up specific aggreements on the use e.g. you perhaps have full use on say Jan,Mar,May,July etc and your friend the other months they also agree pickup points and have agreed routes it all seems to work very well, but I do think they spend a lot of time each year in making specific aggreements, I don't think it would work if its just left to when and if you feel like it ?,

 

Hope that helps

 

To fiond out more do a search for Ownerships and narrowboats it should give you some ideas

 

Brian

[Clive]

Its hard enough sharing it withe the wife!!!

 

Not on your nellie if it were me.

 

Have to agree with Michelle, totally spot on.

We have LOADS of STUFF and its all very personalised and much of it installed semi-permanently to suit our individual needs.

 

We wouldn,t share a narrowboat either. (Nearly bought one 20 years back.)

[Brian Kirby]

Charles

You've had the idea.  You've done most of the analysis.  You can see the pitfalls looming.  You may, however,  have forgotten the fundamental law that says whatever you can foresee will not happen, but something unforeseen will!  I think your analysis is spot on, and I think you already know where it leads!

The problems you foresee suggest, at least to me, that either you know something about your own plans you think may cause trouble, or you suspect something in your friend's plans may do likewise!  This suggests to me that there is just a bit of a gap in confidence or trust. 

If the above is/seems true, don't do it!  At least not if you value your friendship!

[Chaswick]

Oh dear! I don't want to give the impression that I don't trust our friends. Far from it. I just wanted to describe some "worst case scenarios". I really need now to point out what seem to be some of the considerable advantages of shared ownership.

 

First of all, we cannot justify the cost of a decent motorhome just for our own use. As a couple, we hired a 5-berth motorhome in Spain last summer, and came to the conclusion that if we ever bought our own we would like at least a 4-berth with an over-cab bed.

 

Even when shared between us, it won't be used all the time, and we are sufficiently good friends to sort out who uses it and when. We envisage that in the summer one couple might cross the Channel with the motorhome for a holiday, at the end of which the other couple could take a cheap flight out to swap over.

 

Apart from reducing the initial cost by 50%, shared ownership would also reduce all the fixed overheads such as insurance, road tax and annual servicing by the same proportion.

 

As for "stuff" - I am sure we can agree what items we need to leave aboard permanently. After all, we flew out to Spain to a rented van and managed quite happily without taking loads of stuff with us.

 

Thank you JudgeMental for your vote of confidence, and thank you Enodreven for your excellent suggestion about investigating canal boat shared ownership. I will certainly do this. But in the meantime, surely there must be someone out there who has shared the ownership of a motorhome? We would love to find out your experiences.

 

Chaswick :-D

[StAubyns]

Yes I have, with my brother. We have had no problems, but we get on extremely well.

 

I cannot think that I would do it with anyone else.

 

regards

 

Geoff

[RonB]

Chaswick

 

Your wife was your friend before you married her wasn't she? Obviously you judged correctly if the friendship and marriage have lasted, so why should it not be so with other friends? It's a matter of trusting your own judgement with a little legal backup. If your friendship is strong enough nobody should object to a few rules being drawn up in case of the unforeseen.

 

I speak from the experience of having bought a Spanish property with three other couples, and friends, around twenty years ago and we've never had a problem. I also wish that I had a pound for every other friend who has since said 'If only we had.....'.

 

Have fun

 

Ron

[Mel B]

Have you actually contact an insurance company to ask them if they are happy with such an arrangement? Also, if buying on HP/loan etc, you'll need to make sure that you are all responsible for paying it off.

 

What happens if you fall out, unfortunately it can happen, or if one of you dies etc? Not nice to think about I know but you do need to plan for such instances to avoid problems with probate, inheritance tax etc - you can, as far as I am aware, only have one name on the registration document.

 

I hope it works out for you all, sounds like fun! :-)

[StAubyns]

The motorhome is registered to my brother and I am on the insurance as an additional driver. We have a joint bank account and each of us pay a fixed monthly amount into it by direct debit to cover the running costs. The van is paid for 50/50 and we use the van as and when we want - a phone call does it. Obviously for holidays of a week or more, this is arranged in advance. My brother has been on the continent for 3 months this year with no problem. We dont count days of use or anything like that. The only thing that we do do is to leave it full of fuel after use, so we always pick the van up with a full tank.

 

regards

 

Geoff

[Mel B]

Hi Geoff

 

Sorry if I've confused you, my response was meant for the poster.

 

Regards

 

Mel B B-)

[Ranger]

Our first motor home was converted by my best friend and I, He was a garage proprieter so it worked very well. Now 40 years on we are still the best of pals, but now each have our own 'vans. I then owned one half and half with one of my daughters, when we go out nothing has been put back where it belongs, it takes a couple of days to get it right again. Very frustrating!!! The wife and I have given up and given our half to her on permanent loan, and bought another for us. So sharing is not always a good thing. Try it and see, as long as you have a "get out clause"

[Brian Kirby]

Chaswick - 2006-12-11 3:02 PM Oh dear! I don't want to give the impression that I don't trust our friends. Far from it. I just wanted to describe some "worst case scenarios".  Chaswick :-D

I think the advantages of sharing are quite clear, it makes it all affordable.  For that reason it is a powerfully seductive idea, and a strong temptation.  I wasn't, therefore, so much implying that you don't trust your friends, as that you may not trust your view of what might happen.

For example, if the vehicle were to be damaged or abused.  Were it your vehicle alone, and you undertook  extended trips, so reducing it's second hand value, you would have had the pleasure so would (reluctantly) accept the loss.  Should you snag it on something, you'd have to live with the damage, or with the cost of repair.  With joint ownership, such things become more complex, and the enthusiastic long distance continental traveller could come to be resented by a less adventurous, more stay at home, co-owner, who generally only travelled a few hundred miles from home. 

Also, not everyone gets on with motorhomes, although many dream of ownership.  Just look at the number of newish vans for sale, with only a few miles on the clock.  Someone bought them , hardly used them, and is now selling them.  Suppose you, or your friends, don't take to driving a motorhome.  You'd have to sell, or one would have to buy out the other's interest.

Choosing motorhomes is quite tricky.  Some of those low mileage sales of newish vans are the result of bad decisions.  People who only come to realise what they'd really wanted, when they discovered the shortcomings of what they'd bought.  Research is essential, but some things just don't come to light until you try living with the thing.

Worst case scenarios are much more tricky.  For example, the van gets side swiped while parked and no one sees who did it.  Side of van opened up and van off road for considerable time while repairs carried out.  Co-owners holiday plans all have to be cancelled.  Claim made, insurance costs increased.  Who pays extra premium?  Can you re-claim the lost tickets etc on holiday insurance?

Before going any further I'd suggect both parties should try hiring and touring, for at least a couple of weeks, to see what works for them individually, and what doesn't.  To arrive at a van suitable for both of you, you may need to do this more than once, comparing notes and agreeing likes/dislikes.  After all, all four of you can't have identical personalities!

If you really want to do this, how about forming a company, or a formal partnership, with its own bank account, to own the 'van, and buying, registering, taxing and insuring it in that name, with driving limited to specified drivers?  Then you could each pay fixed amounts into the company by standing order to cover purchase, tax, insurance, servicing, repairs etc.  Duplicate bank statements sent to both principals would allow each to be confident the kitty was adequate.  This has the advantage of complete transparency, so no doubts on eithre side.

It isn't that it can't be done, it is just that it is liable to be difficult to get the right balances and, unless that is done, it seems liable to end in tears.

[Mel E]

Everyone seems to see only the negative side, so let me put the POSITIVE side.

 

It is, of course, a very common way of owning aircraft and gliders - it reduces the cost to each syndicate member and increases usage. There are thousands of such aircraft/glider syndicates around the UK. I am a member of one such at present, and financially we work it like this (very common practice):

 

- each member pays a monthly fee that covers the annual costs - insurance, parking, the annual check

 

- then the running costs (tyres, time or mileage based maintenance) are paid per mile.

 

You would need a rule that the fuel tank is always left full (best anyway, as it avoids water condensing in the tank).

 

Of course it will work if you get on well together. GO FOR IT!

[segarrett]

I must also emphasise the positive side of sharing.

 

The advantages of sharing a motorhome are obvious to you: reduced costs and probably a better motorhome than you would buy on your own.

 

As people have written above, the principle is well established for boats and for aircraft and increasingly popular for property.

 

You are concerned about the possible risks and these can be reduced to a level most people consider acceptable if you discuss all the issues carefully before drawing up a contract between you. Make sure your spouses also agree with everything. This may seem like overkill between friends, but sharing arrangements between friends are sometimes prone to problems because the friends don’t want to discuss some things because it implies a lack of trust. You must. The very process of drawing up the contract and discussing all the issues means that you are much more likely to end up in a good sharing arrangement. Once you’ve thrashed out how the arrangement will work and signed your contract, you should be able to put it into drawer and forget about it. If you can’t agree things easily, politely find a way out and don’t buy the motorhome together.

 

As you’ve indicated, some of the key areas that you need to agree are the exit strategy (how you might end the agreement) and how you will apportion costs. On the issue of costs, you will probably need to agree a fixed annual/monthly/quarterly payment to cover insurance, servicing and expected maintenance, and a variable cost based on mileage to cover the increased servicing caused by major trips – unless you are sure that the likely mileage is similar. I would suggest that you start with a mileage cost and then if this turns out to be very similar over time, move it into the fixed costs.

 

There are several other things I would add: how are you going to agree the times you will use the motorhome?. Can all your friends and families also use it? Are you all sufficiently like-minded, in taste, ability and willingness to pay for unforeseen extras, do you have the same views on pets coming into the motorhome or smoking in the motorhome? Do you both want the same things from your motorhome? Is it going to be easy to find one that you both like?

 

I believe the advantages far outweigh the possible disadvantages provided you do your homework first. The fact that you’ve posted this means that you are taking time to investigate and consider how to do this properly, so I think you should be fine.

 

Good luck