Towing - weight and power

[candapack]

So, after considering and then rejecting swapping our coachbuilt for a PVC, we're now checking out the possibility of towing a small car on a trailer.

Our Apache 632 has been uprated to 3,850kg, which involved fitting rear air suspension. It's towing limit is 1,250kg, it's power unit is a 130hp 2.3 litre Ducato (2015). I reckon we use most of the payload, and the van drives very well with not too much gear changing except on particularly long or steep climbs.

I've checked out possible cars - eg a Skoda Citigo - and they have kerbweights of around 900 - 950kg. That, combined with a suitable trailer from (eg) Brian James, takes the combined weight of both well above my towing limit. (I also need to be able to put 2 bikes on the trailer, as I wouldn't be able to use my current towball mounted bike carrier).

Am I missing something, looking at things the wrong way, are there much lighter cars and trailers around, does my van have an unusually low towing limit?

Answers to these and any other unasked questions, and any info/advice, would be appreciated.

[tonyishuk]

I have similar inspirations to you ! One thought that I have in my equation is;

 

a) Having a car that can tow its own trailer, It might be a situation that has to occur, or even parking up on site if needed.

 

b) A tow bar on the car means that a tow ball mounted bike rack can be used to take bikes to bike friendly rides.

 

A couple of cars on my list are Fiat Panda, and Suzuki Jimny. The latter is quite small, light, and can get to places, most other cars cannot.

 

Rgds

 

 

 

[nowtelse2do]

You should have a look at your vehical weight plate, it will tell you your gross trailer weight. That will be max that your vehical + trailer + load (car) can weigh off, but you must stay in the confines of your motorhome's fully loaded weights and not exceed any axle weights

 

Dave

[Rayjsj]

I towed with a Savannah, which had a 1060kg tow limit, Toyota Yaris 1030 kg, Car-a-tow A-frame 25kg.

 

I did have the 150bhp 2.3 engine, but it towed it effortlessly, a chipped 130 would do it too.

I didnt have the choice of a trailer, no one made one light enough. My Savannah was 4250kg.

 

My advice , ditch the trailer. Hard to load/unload, unstable, (unless you get a heavy 4 wheeled one). And no-where to put it onsite. A-framed for 4 years with no problems. But only in the UK.

[StuartO]

Your MH has a low towing limit.  Mine can tow 1600kg and a higher limit of that sort makes a big difference to your options if you want to use a trailer.  MH towing limits are determined either by MH chassis limitations or by power train factors and you might be able to get it uprated, although probably not.

 

The lightest towing options involve using an A frame rather than a trailer and if you only plan to tour in UK that's an option.  Lots of people do it.  You could also probably carry your bikes on the car so this arrangement might well be your best bet.

 

Having an A frame professionally supplied and fitted does however cost as much as buying a new trailer, perhaps even more.  Whereas you can sell a trailer quite easily, I'm not sure that you can recover much of the cost of an A frame when you want to dispose of it - but you might feel that you would have had the value out of it by then.

 

I tow a Toyota iQ on an Ifor Williams single axle trailer.  Too heavy for you but it works extremely well for me.  Not difficult to load, follows the MH beautifully and is easy to reverse.  I haven't had any difficulty parking the trailer somewhere or other on a campsite if the pitch is small and the single axle makes it easy to push it around too.  On level tarmac I can even push it with the car loaded.

 

[Budgie823]

I also drive an Apache but uprated only to 3650 kg and with a 2.3 150 bhp engine and comfortmatic gearbox. For several months I have towed a Peugeot 107 using an A frame with a combined weight, including the frame, of approx 850kg. It handled perfectly and you really didn't know the car was on the back, even on a decent climb. In fact the main concern was remembering that you were towing it.

 

I recently changed the car to a DS3 which weighs about 300kg more but still within about 100kg of my towing limit of 1250kg. Until I tried it I was a little concerned with towing the extra weight and the effect on the towing performance of the motorhome but having now done my first trip I am much happier. That said, you can feel the extra weight and the motorhome works noticeably harder especially on the hills.

 

I concur with the comments from Ray outlining the benefits of the A frame but would strongly recommend that you don't go too close to your limit. Other than Stuart's comments for carrying the bikes I am not really able to offer any suggestions.

 

Whichever option you finally chose I wish you the best of luck with your travelling.

 

Ian

 

[candapack]

Thanks all for the responses.

Most of the towing would be in Europe, including Spain, so an A-frame isn't viable. (Although we did meet a couple in Spain this year who did tow with an A-frame but once they got to Spain they split up and drove the car and MH in convoy).

It also seems that a trailer/car combo will just be too heavy, so I think we'll have to forego taking a car.

Now, does anyone know if you can get a carrier for a Border Terrier to fit on a scooter? :-D

[Billggski]

A classic mini is less than 700Kg, and you will look cool as well!

[StuartO]

Remember it's the kerb weight of the towed car you use to calculate the trailer load, not the gross weight.

[nowtelse2do]

nowtelse2do - 2016-10-08 8:56 PM

 

You should have a look at your vehical weight plate, it will tell you your gross trailer weight. That will be max that your vehical + trailer + load (car) can weigh off, but you must stay in the confines of your motorhome's fully loaded weights and not exceed any axle weights

 

Dave

 

Just to clarify an error I made in this post.

 

I should have said.....Gross Train Weight.......and not gross trailer weight... Sorry about any confusion I may have caused. :$

 

Dave

[goldi]

Billggski - 2016-10-09 3:02 PM

 

A classic mini is less than 700Kg, and you will look cool as well!

 

 

good evening ladies and gentlemen,

 

 

Defo.

 

norm

[flicka]

If it's mainly for use in Spain & you like open top motoring, with a bit of fun thrown in.

http://www.arielmotor.co.uk/atom/specification/

 

nnly 520kg so should give a suitable allowance for a trailer.

 

However looking at the prices, it would be cheaper to hire a car in Spain

[Derek Uzzell]

A French motorhome-with-car-on-a-trailer approach is shown here

 

http://www.garage-vivant.fr/Voiture-sans-permis/services/remorque-porte-voiture,i452.html

 

It comprises a ‘no-driving-licence-needed’ Aixam car carried on a special lightweight trailer that can be hinged up parallel with the motorhome’s rear wall when not being used to transport the car. The video-clip on this link shows how the system works

 

http://www.garage-vivant.fr/Voiture-sans-permis/actus/infos/camping-car,i451.html

 

The total weight of the Aixam + trailer is around 550kg, well within the 750kg trailer-weight limit of the basic “B” driving-licence entitlement that most French drivers have.

 

However - as will be seen from here -

 

http://www.labissonnette.fr/tarifs-remorque-voiture-bissonnette

 

buying a new La Bisonette car+trailer combination is far from cheap.

[Billggski]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35210572

[Rayjsj]

Derek Uzzell - 2016-10-10 9:02 AM

 

A French motorhome-with-car-on-a-trailer approach is shown here

 

http://www.garage-vivant.fr/Voiture-sans-permis/services/remorque-porte-voiture,i452.html

 

It comprises a ‘no-driving-licence-needed’ Aixam car carried on a special lightweight trailer that can be hinged up parallel with the motorhome’s rear wall when not being used to transport the car. The video-clip on this link shows how the system works

 

http://www.garage-vivant.fr/Voiture-sans-permis/actus/infos/camping-car,i451.html

 

The total weight of the Aixam + trailer is around 550kg, well within the 750kg trailer-weight limit of the basic “B” driving-licence entitlement that most French drivers have.

 

However - as will be seen from here -

 

http://www.labissonnette.fr/tarifs-remorque-voiture-bissonnette

 

buying a new La Bisonette car+trailer combination is far from cheap.

 

And to me it looks far from stable, far far better to tow the car on its OWN 4 wheels, with an A-Frame, but then I am biased. Because thats exactly what i did for 4 years. European strange laws apart.

[pepe63xnotuse]

flicka - 2016-10-09 10:45 PM

 

If it's mainly for use in Spain & you like open top motoring, with a bit of fun thrown in.

http://www.arielmotor.co.uk/atom/specification/

 

nnly 520kg so should give a suitable allowance for a trailer.

 

However looking at the prices, it would be cheaper to hire a car in Spain

 

Although not a "proper" car. I was going to suggest something like the Qpod

http://www.qpod.co.uk/qpod-vehicle.php ...

 

I was also going to suggest a 'Moke...'til I saw how much they go for!? 8-)

http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/list/82/moke/

 

[Derek Uzzell]

The Qpod type of vehicle is normally towed on a special draw-bar that causes the vehicle’s front wheels to be raised off the ground. Although these vehicles are very light and easy to tow, they also have brakes and, as ‘trailers' with brakes have to have those brakes operating when being towed, the Qpod towing system (that does not involve operational brakes) fails to comply with UK towing law, never mind overseas regulations.

 

Some time ago I contacted the Qpod sales people and asked for confirmation about the legality of their draw-bar towing arrangement. I was told that it could legally be employed for ‘emergency use’ only.

[candapack]

Thanks again for the replies.

The La Bisonette setup is interesting, but not for me. Partly cost, partly the car, partly nerves re the stability.

A-frame also a no go, due to the law in Spain and, I believe, coming to other countries in Europe in due course.

As to hiring, we did that earlier in the year in Spain for 3 days, no problems but quite expensive as we took out the "extra" insurance. Since then, we've taken out cover with "insurance4carhire", and are just about to put it to the test. We hired a car in France last month, 9 days at £180 which I thought was OK. Car was supplied by Avis, but I arranged it through an internet broker, Car del Mar. Everything went well, until one day I "kerbed" it and chewed up a plastic hub cap. What I didn't realise at the time was that I had also scraped the bottom of the front bumper. It was literally a scrape, no denting or cracking, if it was my car I'd have painted it out.

Avis charged me the thick end of £400!!, which I hope to get back from insurance4carhire

This is partly why I have been investigating having our own transport. Firstly by changing to a PVC plus drive-away awning, but sitting in a few dissuaded us - too used to the extra space of our coachbuilt. Then by looking at towing.

As long as I get my £400 back, I think we'll stick to hiring as and when required.

Cheers,

[tonyishuk]

Love the French.

 

Coming up with something more dangerous that the danger they want to ban. ;-)

 

Rgds

[Derek Uzzell]

Tony

 

I think you are under the impression that the La Bisonette Aixam+trailer concept is intended solely to sidestep the French motoring regulations that prohibit a A-framing in France - that’s not the case.

 

Most French motorcaravanners will have a basic “B” driving-licence entitlement that (just like the “B” entitlement in the UK) permits a vehicle up to 3,500kg Maximum Technically Permissable Laden Mass (MTPLM) with up to 8 passenger seats to be driven, with a trailer weighing up to 750kg. (Heavier trailers can also be towed provided that the total MTPLM of the vehicle+trailer does not exceed 3,500kg.)

 

Because of the “B” licence’s vehicle-weight limit the vast majority of French-registered motorhomes have a MTPLM of 3500kg and most of these vehicles will probably weigh close to that when normally loaded. The effect of this is that there’s only 750kg available for anything being towed by the motorhome and most cars weigh more than that on their own, never mind the weight of a trailer to carry them on.

 

If a motorcaravanner has just a “B” entitlement (not a B+E) then towing a car on an A-frame would most probably break the 750kg weight-barrier unless (as was discussed above) an exceptionally light car were chosen. As I said above

 

"The total weight of the Aixam + trailer is around 550kg, well within the 750kg trailer-weight limit of the basic “B” driving-licence entitlement that most French drivers have.”

 

As the La Bisonette car+trailer weighs less than 750kg the trailer does not need to be braked and, although the combination looks top-heavy, it’s worth remembering that an Aixam weighs well under 500kg.

 

What La Bisonette offers is a very light totally unmodified car that (in France) does not require a driving-licence to drive, carried on a very light simple trailer, with none of the complication, potential reversing challenges and questionable pan-European legality issues inherent in an A-frame system. But it’s the “B” licence’s 750kg towing-weight limit that La Bisonette addresses not A-framing being forbidden in France.

[Brian Kirby]

tonyishuk - 2016-10-11 5:38 PM

 

Love the French.

 

Coming up with something more dangerous that the danger they want to ban. ;-)

 

Rgds

Further to Derek's points above, it is not the A-frame that is illegal in at least France, Spain and Portugal, it is the act of towing one road vehicle with another. The means by which the tow is effected is immaterial, only authorise tow vehicles may tow another road vehicle, except in an emergency when the tow must comply with specified conditions. Trailing your car to Spain for your hols just doesn't quite do it! :-)

[tonyishuk]

tonyishuk - 2016-10-11 5:38 PM

 

Love the French.

 

Coming up with something more dangerous that the danger they want to ban. ;-)

 

Rgds

 

I took a look at the links, and felt that the arrangement looked (shall we say ) very French ! Also sort of trailer would like to follow at a distance ! Hence my remarks. Thanks for the information on a French view of driving licences and road law

 

That said and going slightly off topic, I am a advocate of French engineering; I thought the idea of upturning the trailer onto the towball was really clever, Also a fan of their bridges, certainly down towards Rouen with the themed characters.

 

However. the collaboration between the English and French, in designing and building the Millau Bridge takes pride of place in my book.

 

Rgds