2.8 JTD Ducatto starter issues.

[Noody]

Occasionally when I turn the ignition key to start the engine I just get a click, mostly next go the engine starts. Occasionally I might need a few tries before the starter kicks-in.

 

It isn't to do with batteries or the battery connection because I installed new batteries last year and the van is always hooked-up.

 

I can't hand the problem over to my garage because it's an occasional problem even though it's been going on for eight years since I bought the van.

 

You might think that if it's only very-occasional then why my concern. On some occasions it's been embarrassing because of the number of failures to start has been so many that I wondered if it had finally given up but then it starts and may not do it again for six months.

 

Any ideas?

[thebishbus]

I presume you have already tried the battery negative / /chassis / engine connections and leads. Common failing.

 

Brian B

[Noody]

I had thought about this though considered if the engine negative was poor then other symptoms would show. I'll do a continuity test again though as I mentioned, six months could pass before the symptom occurs.

 

Thank you for the help.

[Barney123]

Hi Noody, I did have the same problem a few years ago, its was not with a Ducatto but with a Merz.

It would always happen in the worst possible situations and never when you took it to the garage to sort out. The last time it happened was on our way back through Spain, we stopped overnight in one of our usual spots and in the morning it happened. No switching off and on would get it to function. I called out my breakdown service, the guy arrived shortly, jumped into the cab, switched on and it started. He claimed there was nothing wrong despite me trying to explain the problem. I insisted he lead me to the nearest Merz garage, which he reluctantly did. He then told the garage what he had done (switched on), the garage took his word and said I didnt have a problem. I further insisted they took a deeper look into the problem which they shrugged their shoulders and agreed to. After about 20 minutes of switching off and on and a guy under the engine with a meter, their was a cry from under the van of Eureka. He found the problem, the starter motor was on its way out and needed replacement. That was done on the spot and I have not had the same problem since.

Worth a try

 

[Noody]

Thanks for that Barney, your visit to the garage sounds like several I have made and whilst they suggested I replaced the starter I wasn't convinced because it was working and did so for another six months.

 

Yes, thanks. It is another possible solution.

[Robbo]

Barney123 - 2016-10-23 3:59 PM

 

Hi Noody, I did have the same problem a few years ago, its was not with a Ducatto but with a Merz.

It would always happen in the worst possible situations and never when you took it to the garage to sort out.

 

Your post has triggered a distant memory with a Fiat Ducato 2.8 JTD.

 

Same symptoms, intermittent non-starting. On the last occasion, I had to cancel an MOT appointment because it wouldn't start. I called in the RAC and the guy diagnosed it as a faulty started motor solenoid. He managed to get it started after giving the solenoid a good thump.

 

I had the starter motor replaced which cured the problem.

[Noody]

Again, thanks.

 

I'm not tight-fisted when it comes to repairs and replacement though I am against premature replacement after making assumptions, for example: my exhaust system was condemned eight years ago but lived on by fitting the short downpipe. I just had a stainless steel complete system fitted and the fitter said it was only the short downpipe that was terminal.

 

So, £400 outlay means I need to wait another month or so before replacing the starter though I don't have a clue how much this will cost.

 

On our last trip where the starter was used several times a day it got worse, I always thought if corrosion was the issue it would get worse with occasional use..

[Robbo]

You can buy a starter motor for your model on eBay for £80.

 

I think the starter motor I had replaced was a reconditioned unit and the total bill with fitting was in the region of £150.

[Noody]

Thanks Robo, sounds about right though if an E-Bay starter is £80 I bet our garage needs to charge £120. I don't begrudge our garages charges if it's work I can't do, they have to support a lot of expensive equipment and they deserve my trust whilst they are reliable.

 

I've been saving up to pay for an underneath wire-brushing and waxing session, the exhaust got the way of that. Now the starter is calling for attention.

[Alanb]

I had a similar problem on our first motorhome a Pilote R390, based on a 2.5 litre Talbot Express. The fault never occured at home, but at filling stations, and after booking into camp sites. I eventually removed the starter, taped up the main positive lead, but extended the solenoid and earth connections to the starter motor on the ground. With assistance, I checked the voltage at several points along the route to the solenoid. (I had an after market alarm/immobiliser, and a separate immobiliser switch fitted.) There was no obvious fault, voltage was gradually lost along the route.

 

I reasoned that as the problem only occurred with a warm engine, it was due to increase in the solenoid resistance when the starter got heated by conduction and radiation from the engine. (The starter was surrounded by a heat shield, and close to the turbo!)

 

On that vehicle, I found it relatively easy to install a relay in the solenoid connection, taking the solenoid power from a point close to the battery.

 

End of starting problems with that vehicle, but I did subsequently read about identical problems in MMM.

 

My current motorhome is a 2006 IH Tio R with 2.8 JTD. Unfortunately I do not think that it would be as easy to carry out a similar mod on the 2.8 JTD, if it was deemed necessary.

 

The earth connection for the battery routes directly to a starter mounting bolt, and continues to the chasis earth point, so not so likely to be a problem, but worth checking at the starter mounting connection, if not included in previous checks.

 

While the starter and turbo are on opposite sides of the engine on the 2.8 JTD, and thermal problems are not so extreme, it is possible that a faulty ignition switch or faulty connectors could be resulting in marginal operation of the solenoid. Checking the voltage at the solenoid when energised may resolve this possibility. (While investigating the problem on my Talbot Express, I fitted a temporary monitoring lead.)

 

 

 

[Noody]

Alan hello and thanks for the detail of the analytical process you went through, I'm not good laying on my back under a van and whilst I do the odd job it's usually in desperation.

 

Regarding the ignition switch, I had wondered if that might be the cause though from experience most motorhome problems have history if you bring those problems to a forum for discussion.

 

When a starter fails to engage through low voltage the symptoms are well know, presumably if the solenoid fails there is also a symptom. When I turn the key in the ignition I just get nothing, do it again and the starter engages. Or maybe again and again.

[MikeyGMT]

Very similar problem on my Fiat Ducato 2.0 JTD / Knaus 501L 2005. The van had probably been sat for a while before we took it on.

 

We had 2 issues which were easily conflated. The Car Battery itself would not retain charge, unless I was on hookup every night. Secondly we had an intermittent starter problem, it simply would not turn, even after replacing the car battery. So I'm thinking it's that age now, it needs a new starter, alternator and so on maybe this is a grand to spend.

 

We read online about the Calira Charger used on German campers, and they are over £600 to replace! It was actually charging fine, keeping me going by plugging in at home, so it wasn't an issue. The car battery looked fairly old, maybe it was the original, no idea. So, knowing they are only guaranteed for 5 years max, I replaced the battery, but on a hunch - it did not make sense that the battery would not keep charge for long without hookup.

 

It behaved well for a week after replacing the car battery. We found ourselves in Ross On Wye, returned to head off before the car park gate closed at 5pm. Wow, no chance, it would not fire the starter, really stubborn, nothing, no matter how many retries. Battery level looked ok. Of course, when the breakdown chap arrived, it frustratingly started first time! Now feeling embarassed!

 

I have to say though, he was a great! It wasn't thanks, off you go now. He took the time to look for the route cause of the problem. He had me retry a few times, measuring various outputs here and there. We were getting wildly varied readouts via the multimeter, 13v then 4v then 10v. It turned out the earth lead (flat plastic coated lead about 2cm wide and 2 mm thick) between the clutch housing and the vehicle body roughly near the front of the passenger side wheelarch. It was attached to the body with a weedy and very rusty 10mm bold; both corroded.

 

He got us going, by gently tightening the rusty bolt, and he offered to replace the strap the next day at his depot. We stayed locally and as soon as we arrived, and the chap was ready and waiting for us. He put on a very much hefty power (10mm round) copper cable and attached it to a big fat bolt on the body and directly to the starter housing. The cost of replacing this power lead was massively less than replacing the starter, alternator and a calira box. The starter now fires straight away without any hesitation or sluggishness. Fingers crossed, we're sorted.

 

We got to find out that the chap who came to rescue us was Graham Baker, the owner of the company. A proper old school mechanic, it was refreshing not to get fobbed off as you do sometimes, I have to say he and his team were brilliant. Many thanks to Graham Baker Motors Team of Ledbury.

 

[Tracker]

We had the same issues on a 2.2 Peugeot powered van.

Fortunately it was just under three years old and when I explained the problem to the Peugeot dealer (Warners Tewkesbury) they changed the starter under warranty even though they were unable to replicate the fault.

They would not be drawn but I suspect I was not the first with that issue?

We kept that van for another 3 years without it ever doing it again?

[Noody]

This thread coming back to life threw me.

 

I eventually had a new starter fitted even though the original starter worked most of the time and never actually let me down.

 

The new Bosch starter has never thrown a dud start yet after six months so presumably it was just down to the solenoid that throws the gear forward. The garage that looks after my van had always said to fit a new starter but it didn't fail that often and never a total failure.

 

 

[MikeyGMT]

Yes, soz @Noody, perhaps I should have started a new thread, but seemed to relate nicely here, just in case someone else had the same.

[Noody]

Just read through this thread again in case I missed something, yes I did. The starter I fitted wasn't a Bosch. It was a no-name brand with a Bosch part number. Cost me £100 delivered. The vendor claimed it was a Bosch starter made in the same factory in Italy.