Harbottle Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 Hi all, New to the forum but not motorhoming! I have 2007 Ducato x250 2.3 130 multijet, which had developed a misfire and hestation whilst driving along with rough idle. Firstly I scanned the ecu which showed up lamda sensor fault. Replaced that and symptoms remained. Researched on here and from various posts, replaced egr valve and control solenoid, replaced throttle body, maf sensor, pressure regulator, fuel filter, temperature sensor, and have carried out injector leak test. Scanning ecu shows no faults! I have taken apart the rusty junction blue connector under the fusebox which showed sgns of corrosion, cleaned these with a toothbrush and some switch cleaner, but symptoms still persist! I've als checked the loom under the l/h headlamp for chafing and found non so far. Further scanning shows egr valve opening on idle and whilst driving although evry so often the egr valv closes and the re opens. All other parameters appear normal. Disconnecting egr solenoid improves idle but the misfire is still present when driving. Idling remains rough and sometimes the rpm hangs when changing gear also power suddenly surges when driving. I've not looked at the turbo yet but I'm not suspecting that at the moment. I'm thinking of now doing wiring checks or replacing the rusty junction blue connector under the l/h headlamp! Appreciate any thoughts or comments please! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trevor166uk Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 Hi I think you would be best waiting for Nick (euroserv) to see your post and hopefully offer his wisdom. From my meagre knowledge I think you have tried all the logical things. I think replacing the rusty blue connector would be a sensible thing to try but wonder also about the engine earth strap, which can cause problems. And I would also have a really good careful look at the wiring under the nearside headlamp. I know you have looked, but you may have missed something. I remember I thought I had looked at mine, but was checking a while ago and found some chafing I hadn't previously noticed. I'm sure Nick will come up with something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 You don't mention replacing earth lead, but I guess you have. Another easy thing to check that can cause odd effects, is where cable to doors pass throu door pillar, there is a second hole behind main one which has no grommet. Aside from that Nicks your best bet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harbottle Posted November 1, 2016 Author Share Posted November 1, 2016 trevor166uk - 2016-11-01 12:06 PM Hi I think you would be best waiting for Nick (euroserv) to see your post and hopefully offer his wisdom. From my meagre knowledge I think you have tried all the logical things. I think replacing the rusty blue connector would be a sensible thing to try but wonder also about the engine earth strap, which can cause problems. And I would also have a really good careful look at the wiring under the nearside headlamp. I know you have looked, but you may have missed something. I remember I thought I had looked at mine, but was checking a while ago and found some chafing I hadn't previously noticed. I'm sure Nick will come up with something. I've only looked at the wiring briefly. I pulled apart the looms as best I could at the time. There wasn't any chafing apparent on the wrapping around the looms and when I pulled some of it apart it was dirty inside but no obvious damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harbottle Posted November 1, 2016 Author Share Posted November 1, 2016 colin - 2016-11-01 1:04 PM You don't mention replacing earth lead, but I guess you have. Another easy thing to check that can cause odd effects, is where cable to doors pass throu door pillar, there is a second hole behind main one which has no grommet. Aside from that Nicks your best bet. Earthing strap on order! However original looks in fair nick, I've yet to do a resistance check on it though as I see from forum postings it's a possible cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted November 2, 2016 Share Posted November 2, 2016 Sorry i am late; sooo busy right now! If you don't have any clues such as a warning light or a fault code stored; the secret to diagnosing a fault is to start at the beginning. You have to go as far up-stream of the process of combustion as you can in order to find the problem. Once you have decided that you have a consistent and reliable supply of fuel, and you assume that all of the relevant permissions were granted by the ECU before it was allowed to start; you have fuel, you (presumably) have compression, engine turns over..... explosions commence and the engine is now self supporting. The most likely cause of a mis-fire is a problem with the injectors or the electrical connections to the injectors. A poor connection would probably have caused a warning light to illuminate but an incorrect spray pattern or leak from the injector will not. A 'back-leak' test will only demonstrate just that; excessive back leak or not but it will not tell you if the injector is 'dribbling' (not shutting off completely) or if it is under or over fuelling while running. Faults of this nature are often visible by excessive smoke from the exhaust but not always. What would i do? First, if the fuel filter has not been changed for more than 2 years or 20,000 miles; i would change it. Next i would put some good quality injector cleaner into the fuel tank and run that through. If neither of these have any effect i would give the vehicle to a Bosch injector specialist and let them determine the next course of action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harbottle Posted November 5, 2016 Author Share Posted November 5, 2016 euroserv - 2016-11-02 3:03 PM Sorry i am late; sooo busy right now! If you don't have any clues such as a warning light or a fault code stored; the secret to diagnosing a fault is to start at the beginning. You have to go as far up-stream of the process of combustion as you can in order to find the problem. Once you have decided that you have a consistent and reliable supply of fuel, and you assume that all of the relevant permissions were granted by the ECU before it was allowed to start; you have fuel, you (presumably) have compression, engine turns over..... explosions commence and the engine is now self supporting. The most likely cause of a mis-fire is a problem with the injectors or the electrical connections to the injectors. A poor connection would probably have caused a warning light to illuminate but an incorrect spray pattern or leak from the injector will not. A 'back-leak' test will only demonstrate just that; excessive back leak or not but it will not tell you if the injector is 'dribbling' (not shutting off completely) or if it is under or over fuelling while running. Faults of this nature are often visible by excessive smoke from the exhaust but not always. What would i do? First, if the fuel filter has not been changed for more than 2 years or 20,000 miles; i would change it. Next i would put some good quality injector cleaner into the fuel tank and run that through. If neither of these have any effect i would give the vehicle to a Bosch injector specialist and let them determine the next course of action. Thanks for getting back to me Nick. I must admit I am suspecting injectors too. I've already replaced the fuel filter and have put injector cleaner into the fuel! On scanning I note the egr valve is opening on idle, as far as I understand it should be closed at that time and a scan on freinds ducato (same model 2.3 130) shows that this should be so! I'v also looked at rusty junction and found some corrosion and cleaned that up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harbottle Posted January 13, 2017 Author Share Posted January 13, 2017 An update on my misfire problem.... Replaced cab battery it was original one 10 years old. Replaced earth strap between engine and bodywork, did resistance check 0 ohms so all good there, checked earth strap from battery to bodywork again 0 ohms. Now had injectors removed and tested no problem there apparently. Testing company strongly suspect ecu, does anyone recommend a good company for testing the ecu? Also on scanning with multiecu the throttle pedal sensors show a different millivolt reading between the two tracks. Is this normal? The voltage difference between track 1 and 2 is about half, so track 2 is half the millivolts as track 1! Thoughts please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordonaldson Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 Classic signs of Crank Angle Sensor problem. Does a wobbly as it heats up...Doesn't even ring up a fault code...Spend money here there everywhere.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordonaldson Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 Just thinking about your erratic running. If your van had had Erratic rough running AND difficult starting with cutting out this would have been a fuel pressure issue. But here the erratic running is a clue to a sensor doing a wobbly. Yes fuel rail Sensor giving the wrong readings to ECU... Have you got an answer yet so can add to great Diesel Library of faults. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 Harbottle - 2017-01-13 11:29 AM Also on scanning with multiecu the throttle pedal sensors show a different millivolt reading between the two tracks. Is this normal? The voltage difference between track 1 and 2 is about half, so track 2 is half the millivolts as track 1! The throttle pedal has two tracks and the voltages from the pair are supposed to be different. The values are combined by the ECU to get a more accurate interpretation of the actual position. So this seems to be OK. Thinking about the 'misfire' you describe; this may be just a matter of 'running rough' rather than an actual misfire and while this is a non-classic symptom of throttle body failure, it is not uncommon. If the flap in the TB is not where the ECU has told it to be, it will cause the solenoid valve and the EGR valve to be 'hunting' a lot to try and acheive the desired pressure levels in the manifold. This can make the engine do many strange things. I think if this were my vehicle i would be swapping the TB and the solenoid valve. If it has an early (original) TB it's amazing that it has lasted this long to be honest. They were terribly unreliable. N Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harbottle Posted January 20, 2017 Author Share Posted January 20, 2017 Thanks for the input everyone, an update on my problem.... I've changed the throttle body to the later type with adaptor cable. Also chanegd egr valve and solenoid. Fuel pressure regulator and fuel filter changed. Replaced MAF sensor and water temp sensor. Renewed earth strap between engine and bodywork and carried out resistance check.. Zero ohms! Had injectors removed and tested all spray pattern and operation normal, no signs of wear. As stated previously looked for wiring damage and pin corrosion on connectors. Currently have ecu removed and sent for testing, well get a replacement and try that. If problems remain, I can rule ecu out. Also replaced cab battery with new as old one was original when vehicle was built (2007) Fitted secondhand throttle pedal just in case. If ecu change doesn't solve the problem then all I can think of it has to be wiring somewhere!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OXY Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 Got a similar problem that I can't find an answer to. Slight flat spot just above 2000 revs. Had new injectors etc amongst other things last year and just changed the Turbo waste gate actuator and fitted new injector plugs on the advise of euroserv with the longer leads, but still the problem persists. Very annoying. Taken to another injection specialist but they can't find the problem or make the fault really happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derek pringle Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 hi, Could it possibly be bad fuel, considering you have virtually rebuilt everything else. Iknow my car has run rough a few times with supermarket fuel. Best of luck derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harbottle Posted January 28, 2017 Author Share Posted January 28, 2017 Final update!! All fixed!! Replaced ecu finally and all back to normal! MOT passed etc! Used ecu doctor and very pleased with their services! Thanks for all advice from everyone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 Thank you for the update. It is always valuable to know what actually caused problems. Hope it didn't cost too much - you seem to have had to change an awful lot to get to the bottom of a problem that one might have hoped a Fiat Professional garage would have been able to isolate quite quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harbottle Posted February 6, 2017 Author Share Posted February 6, 2017 Brian Kirby - 2017-01-29 7:03 PM Thank you for the update. It is always valuable to know what actually caused problems. Hope it didn't cost too much - you seem to have had to change an awful lot to get to the bottom of a problem that one might have hoped a Fiat Professional garage would have been able to isolate quite quickly. Problem was the ecu was showing no faults! So had to start somewhere! So tried to go the cheapest option route after researching on the internet. But, that obviously wasn't the case! Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bop Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 Hi Phil, This question is just for my learning but what was the condition of your TB, Inlet and EGR system in terms of soot deposits etc. I know nothing about the Ducato lump but from my experiences of modifying Landrover Defenders the addition of the EGR system often caused problems with the health, efficiency and life span of the engine. Cheers, Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harbottle Posted February 11, 2017 Author Share Posted February 11, 2017 Bop - 2017-02-07 9:38 AM Hi Phil, This question is just for my learning but what was the condition of your TB, Inlet and EGR system in terms of soot deposits etc. I know nothing about the Ducato lump but from my experiences of modifying Landrover Defenders the addition of the EGR system often caused problems with the health, efficiency and life span of the engine. Cheers, Andrew Hi Andrew Condition not to bad only 31000 miles on vehicle. But the bolts on the egr valve were a real pain to get out as they had rusted quite badly. If you are doing it yourself make sure you replace the bolts with new ones and put copaslip thread lubricant on the threads before you re install them. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bop Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 Harbottle - 2017-02-11 10:03 PM Bop - 2017-02-07 9:38 AM Hi Phil, This question is just for my learning but what was the condition of your TB, Inlet and EGR system in terms of soot deposits etc. I know nothing about the Ducato lump but from my experiences of modifying Landrover Defenders the addition of the EGR system often caused problems with the health, efficiency and life span of the engine. Cheers, Andrew Hi Andrew Condition not to bad only 31000 miles on vehicle. But the bolts on the egr valve were a real pain to get out as they had rusted quite badly. If you are doing it yourself make sure you replace the bolts with new ones and put copaslip thread lubricant on the threads before you re install them. Phil Cheers Phil, and thanks for the hints. All the best, Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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