Earthmover Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 Hi, As anyone got experience of Nitendo chipped braked A-frames?. Do they work, are they better than the over run type which i have used for the last 10 years with no problems, except for the weight of the actual A-frame. I am changing cars so might as well go for something thats lighter . to handle. But only if they actually work ?. Any installer recomendations? Approx Cost? Please don't bang on about trailers. Regards Em, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 Not going to comment about other Frames as i have only used Car-a-Tow overrun type. But be very careful of how unit is attached to the front of your Car, some types only use existing towing eye on car, and tack on another on the other side. This is NOT strong enough, personally i think the heavier the better, a proper heavy gauge steel frame attached to the front of the car. I also think that some of the frames themselves are a bit puny for the job they are doing, but thats just Belt and Braces me. Happy A- framing ! I have now downsized to a PVC, so dont tow now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peedee Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 I have just changed from the heavy Car-A-Tow frame to an electronic braking system from Tow Bars 2 Tow for similar reasons to what you are thinking Earthmover. The weight is half that of the Car-A-Tow frame and I think the electronic systems don't wear the car brakes out quite so much as the overrun systems. Tow Bars 2 Tow do a very neat job but not cheap and I find the system a little more fiddly to attach to the front of the car and to hook up to the van if you are doing it solo but I think I will get better at it with practice.Nevertheless I think it a good system. I don't agree with Ray about using the towing eye after all that is what it is meant for and attaching another eye will half the load on both eyes. Not sure how TB2T attach the eyes, could depend on the car model. peedee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 peedee - 2016-11-17 7:31 AM I don't agree with Ray about using the towing eye after all that is what it is meant for and attaching another eye will half the load on both eyes. Not sure how TB2T attach the eyes, could depend on the car model. peedee Towing eyes are only designed to tow a vehicle in a straight line and should never be used off axis. They are only meant to tow the vehicle onto a recovery vehicle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peedee Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 lennyhb - 2016-11-17 11:37 AM peedee - 2016-11-17 7:31 AM I don't agree with Ray about using the towing eye after all that is what it is meant for and attaching another eye will half the load on both eyes. Not sure how TB2T attach the eyes, could depend on the car model. peedee Towing eyes are only designed to tow a vehicle in a straight line and should never be used off axis. They are only meant to tow the vehicle onto a recovery vehicle. Maybe you're right, I honestly don't know. I have never bothered to yet have a good look at the mechanics of my installation but will do and post a response but if you look at TB2T's web site they detail how their system operates and all the testing done. Those interested in this system could also phone them for more information. I certainly have no qualms about using it. peedee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave C Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 Look here - no problems at all. (Not cheap though - you get what you pay for!) http://www.smart-tow.com/towframe.htm Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteH Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 Or? How the Americans Do It:- http://blueox.com/recreational-commercial-flat-towing Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 Looking at 'towbars 2 tow' website I came across this statement in the FAQ's With this approval of the UK D.o.T. under the Vienna convention on Transport 1958 any vehicle registered in the UK is allowed free passage in all EU states for up to 6 Months in any one period. The only exception to this being Spain which never ratified the agreement As VSA don't believe this to be true I do question how they can state this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 Ah, the good old Vienna Convention argument... This was discussed here http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/A-frames-in-Europe-update/37428/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 lennyhb - 2016-11-17 11:37 AMpeedee - 2016-11-17 7:31 AMI don't agree with Ray about using the towing eye after all that is what it is meant for and attaching another eye will half the load on both eyes. Not sure how TB2T attach the eyes, could depend on the car model.peedeeTowing eyes are only designed to tow a vehicle in a straight line and should never be used off axis. They are only meant to tow the vehicle onto a recovery vehicle. So when I see the AA and RAC towing a car using a towing bar attached to the towed vehicle's towing eye they are getting it wrong? I suspect you are underestimating what that towing eye will tolerate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muswell Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 StuartO - 2016-11-18 9:28 AMlennyhb - 2016-11-17 11:37 AMpeedee - 2016-11-17 7:31 AMI don't agree with Ray about using the towing eye after all that is what it is meant for and attaching another eye will half the load on both eyes. Not sure how TB2T attach the eyes, could depend on the car model.peedeeTowing eyes are only designed to tow a vehicle in a straight line and should never be used off axis. They are only meant to tow the vehicle onto a recovery vehicle. So when I see the AA and RAC towing a car using a towing bar attached to the towed vehicle's towing eye they are getting it wrong? I suspect you are underestimating what that towing eye will tolerate. A towing bar loads axially but an A frame also applies shear load. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgnbuk Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 "So when I see the AA and RAC towing a car using a towing bar attached to the towed vehicle's towing eye they are getting it wrong?" There is a big difference between occasionally towing a broken down vehicle a short distance to get it to a safe place or a garage, and towing for long distances regularly. Changing the structure of the front of a car to strengthen it to withstand the additional loads imposed by towing in this manner will invalidate any saftey homologation for that car. I am suprised that insurance companies allow such untested changes to be made, as the crash characteristics of a modified car must be substantially different to an unmodified vehicle. I don't tow a car at present & don't see myself doing so in future, but should circumstances change I am in the "a trailer is the only safe way to tow a car" camp. I appreciate that others don't share this view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 mgnbuk - 2016-11-18 4:09 PM "So when I see the AA and RAC towing a car using a towing bar attached to the towed vehicle's towing eye they are getting it wrong?" There is a big difference between occasionally towing a broken down vehicle a short distance to get it to a safe place or a garage, and towing for long distances regularly. Changing the structure of the front of a car to strengthen it to withstand the additional loads imposed by towing in this manner will invalidate any saftey homologation for that car. I am suprised that insurance companies allow such untested changes to be made, as the crash characteristics of a modified car must be substantially different to an unmodified vehicle.( Yes, its much stronger in a crash !). I don't tow a car at present & don't see myself doing so in future, but should circumstances change I am in the "a trailer is the only safe way to tow a car" camp. I appreciate that others don't share this view. I certainly dont, but i also dont agree with cars being towed on a regular basis by just by a towing eye either ! I believe a strong frame attached to multiple points on the front of the vehicle (but under the bodywork) make it perfectly safe to tow. The homogolation argument is differant entirely and is one of the reasons i voted to leave the EU ! What about front mounted winches on land rovers ? Plently of them around here ! Or tractors with large spikes sticking out of the front !, plenty of them too. No, A-frames are perfectly safe (the op did say no arguments about trailers). My argument is purely for ones that are stong enough for the job. And dont rely on the welding ability of who might weld on the extra towing eye ! And its strength.As for insurance, i had no trouble insuring both car and motorhome with full disclosure of modifications fully comprehensively withe the Caravan Club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peedee Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 peedee - 2016-11-17 7:31 AM Maybe you're right, I honestly don't know. I have never bothered to yet have a good look at the mechanics of my installation but will do and post a response peedee Well it certainly does not use a towing eye, the car never came equipped with one. It is difficult to see what has actually been done without comparing it to a similar car which has not. If additional pieces have been added to the chassis it has been very well done. peedee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witzend Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 found this on another forum the only legal and safe way to transport a car behind a motorhome is to put it on a car carrier trailer. http://questions.assemblee-nationale.fr/q14/14-42452QE.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muswell Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 No ambiguity there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peedee Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 Earthmover, I forgot to say you can of course reverse the outfit far easier using the electronically braked frame than the overrun system. peedee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 witzend - 2016-11-18 7:52 PM found this on another forum the only legal and safe way to transport a car behind a motorhome is to put it on a car carrier trailer. http://questions.assemblee-nationale.fr/q14/14-42452QE.htm This relates to the legality under French motoring law of a motorhome towing a car on an A-frame and - although many of the observations apply to 'A-framing’ generally - it doesn’t alter the UK Department for Transport’s opinion that the A-frame+car assembly may be classified as a ‘trailer’ within the framework of UK legislation. Historically two A-frame systems were sold in France, being marketed by offshoots of the UK companies “TOWtal” and “Car-a-Tow” http://www.campingcar-bricoloisirs.net/towbar.html but more recently a 3rd system has appeared http://www.systeme-bleu.com/ Since A-frame systems began to be marketed in France every French authority with any credibility has always stated categorically that A-framing conflicts with French laws, but this has not stopped French motorcaravanners from buying those systems and using them in France. A while back it seemed that many French insurance-providers were taking note of the “A-framing is illegal in France” advice and would no longer provide cover. However, the Systeme Bleu webpage suggests that some insurers still will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 Muswell - 2016-11-18 9:48 PM No ambiguity there! Just the wrong Country and the wrong language. As for the high cost of an A-frame system, i bought a fairly new towing frame, in good condition for 200 pounds, got the car converted for 500 pounds (the most expensive bit) but cars can be bought that are already converted, if you dont already own one. Far,Far cheaper than a trailer, also my, then motorhome didnt have the towing allowance for a car AND a trailer. The ideal system for towing a car in the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike B. Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 Not getting involved in the eternal slanging match but I have towed a Citroen C1 on an A-Frame from Towbars-2-Towcars for 9 years so far without any problems. This system has the electronic braking and works perfectly on mine The service from T-2-T was very good and on the 1 occasion I needed help and a spare part they were very quick to respond (the spare part was a cable that I damaged) Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earthmover Posted November 21, 2016 Author Share Posted November 21, 2016 Hi Guys, Thanks for all the replies, Much food for thought. If it came down to the fact that I had put the car on a trailer , I personally would not bother. I sometimes think that some of those who condemn towing with an A-Frame, just haven't tried it.?. I have also towed a caravan for twenty or so years but the stability when towing with an A-frame is much, better in comparison. The legal issues are something that will be decided sometime in the future. Have a safe journey where ever your heading. cheers Em Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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