Grip Track

[Mike-the-red]

Hi,

 

I am considering investing in the yellow grip track, as using the van all year round inevitably we get stuck on grass pitches sometimes.

 

Is it any good or should i consider the more expensive rope ladder type.

 

Any thoughts

 

Mike

[Mike Chapman]

Hello Mike,

 

Have not used the Grip Track myself but have seen several postings on the forums to say that the problem with it is that as you accelerate the grip track is often driven out from under the wheels instead of the vehicle moving forward.

 

I carry a couple of old rubber door mats and have used these many times without problems. they need washing off after but so do Grip Tracks.

 

Regards,

 

Mike.

[Bill Ord]

I've got a pair of grip tracks and the one time I needed them the drive wheels just spat them out from underneath and the 'van stayed where it was. It seems a common fault with them and the only solution would be to pin the mats to the grouind. I've never used them again in anger but they still travel with me as they take up next to no room but they are of questionable value.

[Brambles]

All I can add, is if you manage with grip mats or runner mats, you would have managed with out them. Its a bit like the wee man wearing corks around his hat to keep flying elephants away. Does it work? Well have you seen any flying elephants today?

Rubber mats just sink into the mud and the tyres just slip on then when wet, just use them as a door mat to wipe your feet getting into van. You need something that spreads the load and is much more rigid. I am told and also read the base cut from plastic bread trays from bakers work. You coild also use large planks of wood or something that looks akin to a rope ladder. Sorry to sound negative.

Jon.

[enodreven]

Hi, I have been stuck twice both times it has been on grass and its been my fault due to stopping, on both occasions i knew the ground wasn't that firm but we had no choice so i reversed up my ramps as close to the tarmac road as possible, and in the morning on both occasions just as i started to move away so the person in the next MH wanted to talk and like a fool i braked and that was it, the next time i went to move the wheels just spun, and i can say the the holed rubber mats that you can get from places like QD's etc got me out they really worked well just put one under each wheel and it gripped and we were on the tarmac

 

Hope that helps

[Brambles]

OK OK, I will qualify what I said and say as long as you don't park on them over night and they get a chance to sink in. LOL. Oh dear! but every time I have tried them I have just made a bigger mess. The trick is as mentioned to drive up the ramps so you get a run off in the morning.

Jon.

[Guest JudgeMental]

as my last camper was a 4x4 and new one on order is a front wheel drive ford. all I was going to do was carry some pieces of ply and reverse onto them. any experience with this method?

 

[Brian Kirby]

I think something that you can park on, which spreads the load on the ground, will be more successful.

The grip mats may work well on compacted snow or ice, where the problem is simply insufficient traction. 

On soft ground, however, the problem is that the ground yields under the weight on the tyres, so not only is friction reduced by wet grass/mud, but the van also has to climb out little pockets under each tyre.  That is a bit like mounting a kerb, starting with the tyre in contact.  Never easy.

If the ground is soft when you arrive the best and obvious bet is to avoid it. 

If it appears OK at first, but the van doesn't roll freely while "pitching", just go straight into reverse and off without further debate or consideration.  If it is borderline and you stop, you'll sink!  Far easier to get out then, and have a look.  If you can see your tyre tracks on the ground think again, if not go back in.  Far quicker than getting bogged!

The greatest problem is when you arrive in the dry, and everything seems fine, but you then hit a wet spell.  We found that water from the roof ran off the coachbuilt front profile and straight down over the front wheels, to extensively water the ground at each front wheel.  A day or so of that, and the ground waterlogs, then softens, and the front wheels begin to sink.  Naturally this results in a slight forward curtsey and, guess what, even more water delivered to the front wheels!

Pitching on pieces of stout ply about the width of your ramps, and just long enough to allow you to get the ramp onto the ply just behind/in front of the wheels, should be enough. 

Then, if reasonably level, park in the middle.  If sloping, position the van just onto the ply, position the required ramp/s on the balance of the ply and drive/reverse up as necessary. 

When leaving you can then retrieve the ramp/s with the wheels still on the ply, and just drive straight off the ply onto firm ground, going back to pick up ramp/s + ply.

[lizken]

I carry 4 grip tracks, and if the ground is wet, I park on them, which spreads the load enough. I have never been stuck after doing this, but if the vehicle has sunk, and you attempt to get out of the trough by using the grip tracks, it usually requires higher revs to climb out, causing the grip tracks to be thrown away by the spinning wheels, creating a bigger hole, and bigger problem.

Always park on the grip tracks

Ken

[Mickt]

For me the best way is the bottom from an old bread basket, cut this in two and place under your wheels when you park up if the ground looks suspect. *-)

[chas]

I also think that if your drive wheels are at the front and you have a van with end kitchen /fridge/ ect your chances of getting stuck are far greater, vans with double rear wheels and rear drive are nearly as good as 4x4, but of course today the vans are nearly all front wheel drive. chas

[Pat]

Be very very careful with anything like short planks of wood or ply as when you drive off them they invariably tip up and can dig into your body work or worst still if you reverse and they flip up you could pull off the front cap or bumper as they will dig in!

 

Regards Pat

[Mel E]

I really do think that a few simple precautions are better than all the planks, rubber mats, etc., which still leave the camp pitch torn up!

 

1. NEVER park so you have to reverse out; reverse is the lowest gear of all and much more likely to cause wheel spin.

 

2. If the grass is soft or very wet, don't park on it - certainly not overnight. There's nearly always a bit of dead-end road or lay-by on most sites that the wardens would much rather you use than create a problem causing them to have to reconstruct the pitch.

 

3. If, however, you are unexpectedly in a position where you need to get off a slippery pitch, use the highest gear you can. Start with third, apply the revs incredibly slowly (diesel engines have enormous torque, even at low revs) until the van starts to move, then hold the revs until you are on firm ground. If third causes the engine to stall, try second. But never start in first in these circumstances.

 

4. Once the wheels have started to slip, you need real help. The tyres are full of slimy mud and will have no adhesion. Best solution is a tow assist from someone on the nearest hard top. If there's no adjacent hard top, you're on your own!! You shouldn't have parked there!!

 

Hope that helps.

[Pat]

I agree with Mel be very careful where you park always try to park where you can drive straight out preferably downhill also keep going if you stop you are in trouble! Rear wheel drive is preferable but if front wheel drive reverse in will definitely help!!!

 

Regards Pat

[Brambles]

Hi Mel,

 

"1. NEVER park so you have to reverse out; reverse is the lowest gear of all and much more likely to cause wheel spin. "

 

Incidently, and I am not picking holes in what you have said but just want to correct this, Reverse gear is usually higher that 1st, and sits between 1s and 2nd ratios. For example on the ducato 1st ratio is 3.73, 2nd 1.95 and reverse is 3.15, all approx.

 

It is usually generally accepted on front wheel drive revesing out of a slippy situation is better as weight is transferred on to driving wheels as you start moving. I totally agree with rest, and when wheels start to slip, give up and try another tactic. I usually find if you just gently ease back and forward to try and make a longer dip, then eventually you can 'rock' enough to climb out of the dip or get enough momentum to keep going.

 

[Mel E]

Brambles,

 

I stand corrected about reverse ratio! But on the figures you give, reverse is much closer to first than it is to second, so my advice stands, since, on slippy ground, you always start in second or third - just as you should on snow or ice.

 

You say:

<>

 

I'm sorry, but I really do not understand this - can you (or someone else, perhaps) please explain it? I'm actually saying the exct opposite - always drive forward in the highest possible gear!

 

Incidentally, another cause of this 'getting stuck' problem is if the motorhome is heavily loaded at the back, especially behind the rear axle - scooter racks and fully laden rear garages are especially bad. This reduces the weight over the front axle on FWD vehicles, reducing the available traction.

[Mel E]

Brambles,

 

It should say: You say:

 

"It is usually generally accepted on front wheel drive revesing out of a slippy situation is better as weight is transferred on to driving wheels as you start moving. "

 

The system seems to eliminate anything quoted between <> marks.

 

Mel

===

[livewire]

Personally I always take a 12v tyre pump. At any sign of slipping, let the drive wheel tyres down to 10psi. You can usually drive out, then use the pump to re-inflate.

[Brambles]

Mel, generally it is accepted you are best to park with the vehicle (fwd) front up hill, and then reverse down the slope. If you are on the flat you are still best to drive on and reverse off, but there is a big argument against all this in which is as your view and drive off also because the front driven wheels have far less distance to go to the solid road again where they will get grip to haul your back wheels out of the mud.

Obviously it is best not to get stuck in the 1st place but it is always easy to be say that in hindsight after you are stuck.

 

Like the idea of carring a 12 volt pump, but does take a long time to pump tyres up again to 50/60 psi but not all pumps are particularly reliable and would not like to put my faith in it coping and surviving the arduous task.

Jon.

[Brian Kirby]

Just a rider to the above, but I am very unimpressed with the traction given by Michelin XCs on soft/slippery surfaces.  Since motorhomes tend to do low mileages, and their tyres require replacement more often as a result of age than wear, I do wonder why we don't have a half decent M+S type tyre fitted as standard.

I know the true effect of tread blocks is somewhat marginal, but I believe it is generally accepted that a more self cleaning pattern assists traction in the soft.  The XC tyre tread gives me the impression of a tyre designed for high mileage rather than maximum grip.  This does not reflect a general motorhome problem, but one of the problems we almost all experience at some time is soft ground or snow.  I'd sooner throw the tyres away after 5 years (or whatever) with a bit less tread left on them having got myself off the soft a few times, rather than with loads of tread on after having needed towing off an equal number of times. 

For what it is worth, I also think the tyre sections are a bit skinny, which has the effect of increasing the point load on the ground, and thus the tendency of the tyre to sink in the first place.

What we really need is big, fat, chunky rubber on the deck.  A bit more tyre noise on the road probably, but much greater traction where it really counts.

What do you chaps/chapesses think?  Anyone know a good contender?

[Mike Chapman]

Brian Kirby - 2006-12-17 6:53 PM

For what it is worth, I also think the tyre sections are a bit skinny, which has the effect of increasing the point load on the ground, and thus the tendency of the tyre to sink in the first place.

What we really need is big, fat, chunky rubber on the deck.  A bit more tyre noise on the road probably, but much greater traction where it really counts.

What do you chaps/chapesses think?  Anyone know a good contender?

Hello Brian,Unfortunately yet another urban myth.For the same weight of vehicle whether the tyre is "Skinny" or "Fat" the amount of rubber on the road is just about the same. the only thing that changes is the shape of the footprint. For narrow section tyres a longitudanal shape and for wide section tyres a more lateral shape.The amount of grip given depends on the surface. A narrow tyre will actually have more grip on slippery surfaces, especially flooded road surface where the wide section will be more prone to aquaplaning. If you follow rallying you will notice that in very slippery conditions the cars run on narrow section tyres which additionally are often studded for hard ice conditions.In dry road conditions the wider tyre gives better grip and a more controlled turn in. The manufacturers take a great deal of time getting the tyre size balance correct according to the vehicle only to see the Boy Racers fit wide low profile tyres and upset the road holding, grip and ride comfort.Regards,Mike.

[Brian Kirby]

Mike

All true, but the problem of sinking into, and getting off, soft ground is none of those.  Yes, for a given weight, and assuming the tyre is correctly inflated, the footprint will be much the same.  However, the assumption here is that only the tyre yields under the pressure, the nice strong tarmac remaining undistorted.  

But, the reason we have problems with motorhomes on soft ground is that the ground does indeed yield under the load on the tyres.  The tyres thus tend to form depressions in the ground when the load over the tyre footprint exceeds the bearing pressure of the ground.  As the ground yeilds, the tyre sinks, and as it does this more of its circumference comes into contact with the ground, so effectively enlarging its footprint, until the load on the footprint area has fallen to a figure the ground can sustain.  Then, all things being equal, equilibrium is reached and the sinking stops.  Our problem is that you then have to drive up out of those depressions.  The simplest way to avoid this problem would be through increased footprints, hence lowering the bearing pressure.

Increasing the potential footprint under these circumstances could be achieved by fitting larger diameter wheels, but wheel arch clearance problems would probably intrude, to say nothing of speedometer readings.  However, taking a leaf from users of vehicles who frequent soft ground regions, especially desert regions, suggests that wider section tyres can be just as effective in reducing the ground bearing pressure, with the added advantage that if the ground does begin to yield, the wider tyre gains its increased footprint at a reduced ground depression.  Hence, driving off is simplified.

It is a question of practicality and degree but, as the ad says, every little helps.

[Mike Chapman]

Hello Brian,

 

Now its starting to get interesting.

 

I accept most of what you say except that fitting a tyre to specifically get your motor caravan off soft ground would have detrimental effects for other forms of driving. Take a 4x4 with off road tyres and see the difference in normal road use against a multi-purpose or road tyre. Apart from grip and road holding differences, especially under heavy braking on a wet road, the off-road tyre will have a considerably shorter mileage life if used mainly on-road.

 

The only tyre that will guarantee a reasonable chance of getting off soft ground at the heavy weights of an average motor home is one with a grip/block type tread. The factors determining grip will be weight to be moved, gradient,tyre pressure and the tread pattern of the tyre. As has been said earlier in this thread the problem is with the tread filling with mud and then becoming in essence a slick tyre offering little to no grip. Using a wide section tyre will have very little effect on this grip and I stand by my comment that a narrow section tyre will in many cases provide better grip.

 

The problem with comparing tyre types, as we are, is that there are many ground/road conditions that have to be coped with. Your comment about

vehicles that frequent soft ground regions is correct but these vehicles especially in desert regions use specialised and often low pressure tyres. This is also generally understood in countries where snow conditions are regularly found by the changing to a Mud & Snow tyre for winter use.

 

The answer to the questions raised in this thread seems to be, think about where and how you park and anticipate what would happen if that lovely dry summer weather hard mud/grass pitch suddenly turns into a morass caused by heavy rain. Carry some form of mat, track, chain to give grip if the worst happens and even ask if the site has a vehicle to tow units off muddy pitches. I once spent a whole day extricating motor caravans and cars from a site where flooding had caused most vehicles (including a brand new Hymer 6 wheeler) to sink up to their axles in liquid mud and where even a farm tractor could not shift them. In the end a power winch and scaffold boards were the only solution.

 

Regards,

 

Mike.

[Brian Kirby]

Ah well Mike, what I'm after is an improvement to the present position, and not an amphibian!

M+S yes, that's what I'd proposed above.  Then raise the section by a size or two, possibly also going up on rim width by half an inch or so to maintain stability, and I think you'd get off more sites than previously.  Thus, your chances of getting stuck are somewhat reduced, though not eliminated.

It shouldn't be pursued to the point at which handling is seriously eroded, but does it really matter if wear rates are a bit higher?  After all, how many vans actually wear out their tyres?  Development of the vans/tyres does not relate specifically to motorhome use, and I still maintain the XC tyres are formulated and patterned for high mileages on tarmac and not sufficiently for soft ground traction. 

It will always have to be a compromise between the conflicting demands but, provided you can cruise in reasonable comfort at 60/70 mph, who is really interested in the outer reaches of rally performance on a motorhome?  However, in my opinion, getting off a soft site unaided would be a good swap for several thousand miles of wear that will never be used, and I'd just like to see the compromise skewed in favour of that a bit more than at present.  Year round M+S type tyres therefore seem about right to me.

Regards

[Ranger]

Make up some snow chains but instead of chain over the tread, use 3" circumference rope, Nylon, hemp, Sisal, what ever you fancy. Easy to fit onto front wheel drives, but a bit messy to get on the rear wheels when kneeling in the mud. That gives about an inch thick cleat across the tread. a bit messy to clean after but does give good grip. A good pair of water proof trousers or leggings are a good thing to carry to wear when fitting the mud chains and when washing them clean afterwards.