buttmonkey Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 hello all i am wanting to get an A-FRAME for my motorhome, i am looking at getting it done at ARMITAGES. . i have talked to them and definitely know there stuff. has anybody used this company, if have any feedback would be greatly welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aultymer Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 Might be worth doing a search including armitage and locksmith before you splash out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxy Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 Had a tow bar and scooter rack fitted by them, after a teething problem had no problems and was well satisfied. If going abroad you may want to check on legality as they are not legal in Spain. Foxy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 aultymer - 2017-02-09 11:05 PM Might be worth doing a search including armitage and locksmith before you splash out! The forum discussions that are generally viewable regarding the ‘Armitages/locksmith’ incident are here: http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/search/query.asp?action=search&searchforumid=3&keywords=armitage&author=locksmith&days=&Submit=Search (There are a couple of other related forum threads that were Moderator-moved to an Admin-only forum, but they aren’t really significant.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 Please be careful about buying an A-frame set-up if you intend to use it abroad, more and more countries are now clamping down on their 'illegal' use there so you could end up buying something that you can only use in the UK in the future. Please also do NOT take what the selling companies say about use abroad being okay and giving you a load of paperwork/waffle about it ... they have NO jurisdiction in other countries so it isn't worth the paper it's written on and won't prevent you being fined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJay Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 Wise words from MEL It's good to see she has come back to us, as well PJay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerC Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 With an eye on the caveats mentioned and an even closer eye on intent (if any) to use an A frame abroad I can honestly say, as a purchaser from new of an Armitage's 'A' frame and necessary conversion work with our Smart car we never once regretted having it done. In fact we now have a Peugeot 2008 and are in the process of looking into having that converted for 'A'framing and should we decide to go ahead then we will have no hesitation in going back to Armitages. Seeing as they are in W Yorkshire and we are in Wiltshire (400+miles round trip) that should tell you the degree of confidence we have in them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aultymer Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 Just to balance the more pessimistic comments on "A" frames - we have towed extensively through France , Italy, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Belgium and Germany without a problem. We don't need an excuse to avoid Spain so their rules don't bother us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 Mel B - 2017-02-11 10:45 AM ...more and more countries are now clamping down on their 'illegal' use there so you could end up buying something that you can only use in the UK in the future... Mel Would you like to expand on that warning, please? Fine-wise Spain has always been a risky country in which to tow a car on an 'A-frame’. Over the years there have been very occasional instances where a UK motorcaravanner was fined for A-framing in Germany. French authorities have repeatedly stated that A-framing conflicts with the French ‘Highway Code’ but (as far as I’m aware) no motorcaravanner (French or ‘foreign) has been prosecuted there so far. So, putting aside Spain (a definite no-go area for A-framing), Germany and potentially France, which are the "more and more countries that are now clamping down”? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 Might I also add that the premise upon which most converters were advising potential customers of an 'A' frame was the piece of legislation in European law that (broadly) said if your vehicke meets all the legal requirements in your country then it is legal throughout other EU countries and that the conversion basically made the towed car a trailer which, they believed, met the requirements of trailer construction and use regulations in the UK. There has been considerable debate on the interpretation and application of this but in a short while - we won't be part of the EU. As for Armitages, I had my rear air suspension fitted there and they made a first class job at a reasonable price. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 david lloyd - 2017-02-12 9:35 AM Might I also add that the premise upon which most converters were advising potential customers of an 'A' frame was the piece of legislation in European law that (broadly) said if your vehicke meets all the legal requirements in your country then it is legal throughout other EU countries and that the conversion basically made the towed car a trailer which, they believed, met the requirements of trailer construction and use regulations in the UK. There has been considerable debate on the interpretation and application of this but in a short while - we won't be part of the EU. As for Armitages, I had my rear air suspension fitted there and they made a first class job at a reasonable price. David The law they quote is the Vienna convention, which pre-dates the EU laws, this is the law that allows foreign registered trucks to tow trailers that show differant registration numbers on the rear of a trailer than that of the vehicle towing...Thereby making the driver almost impossible to trace, unless paperwork is impeccable, which it isnt. A disgrace IMO. Anyway, it allows UK caravanners to tow Caravans which arent themselves registered in the EU, but at least the driver is easily traceable. As for A-frames, the best method of towing a car with a motorhome, no matter what stupid Spanish law states. A very safe method. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 Very simply stated, the Vienna Convention on International Traffic says that if a vehicle, or trailer/vehicle combination, is legal in its country of registration, it must be admitted to the roads of all convention signatories. A frames present two difficulties when trying to cite the Vienna convention. First, in a number of European countries - see posts above - it is illegal to tow one vehicle with another. The only exceptions to this are in an emergency, when a vehicle can be towed to remove an accident risk, or towed to a garage for repair - in which cases speed must be kept low (40kph comes to mind), the hazard flashers must be operating, and the towing device must be a rigid tow pole. Otherwise, only authorised recovery vehicles may tow other vehicles. Second, there is no legal proof that towing a car on an A-frame is legal in UK. There is only opinion from the Department of Transport that the towed car can be accepted as a trailer - providing it fully complies with the trailer regulations. The regulations require a trailer over 750kg to have operative brakes that function when the towing vehicle brakes, to have the same registration number as the towing vehicle, to have lighting that functions when the towing vehicle lights (including brake lights) are operated, and to be capable of being reversed without mechanical intervention (for example to operate a brake lock-out) from the driver of the towing vehicle. From this two, further problems arise. First, this is opinion, and has never been tested in the courts, and there is no specific legislation authorising A-frames for towing. Second, it is highly debatable that a towed car can be made to fully satisfy the trailer regulations, especially insofar as the reversing requirement is concerned. There are claims, but in the absence of regulatory standards, there is no test, and so no proof, that the claims are justified. Thus, under UK law, the combination is not illegal (because illegality has not been established), but equally cannot factually be stated to be legal. It therefore falls into a "grey area" legally, where it is neither proved legal, nor declared illegal, but is merely deemed legal until proved otherwise. Unfortunately this concept, of deemed legal until proved otherwise, does not meet the tests for legality applied in most continental countries, where a practise is not legal unless specifically provided for by regulation. So, A-frames are not illegal in UK, and can be used on UK roads, but if used on continental roads, are liable to challenge by the local police. One is then at the mercy of the local police who, in many cases, appear to "turn a blind eye" to the practise but, since police forces answer to their individual governments, and through them to their legal and regulatory frameworks, cannot be relied upon to do so in all countries, or even all parts of an individual country. It is futile, and somewhat unhelpful, to call the laws in other countries stupid. Whatever one's opinion of them, they are the laws of those countries, and one is liable to be penalised for infringements as one is in UK - and not all our laws seem consistently flawless. Rather then resenting such restrictions, it would be wiser to understand the differing legal frameworks in the countries one visits, and observe them with due care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 PJay - 2017-02-11 7:43 PM Wise words from MEL It's good to see she has come back to us, as well PJay Just dip my toe in the OAL water occasionally PJay. :-D A lot of memories get stirred up when I come onto this forum, some of them not so good from the 'trolls' and some sad now that Eddie's no longer with us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 Derek Uzzell - 2017-02-12 8:26 AM Mel B - 2017-02-11 10:45 AM ...more and more countries are now clamping down on their 'illegal' use there so you could end up buying something that you can only use in the UK in the future... Mel Would you like to expand on that warning, please? Fine-wise Spain has always been a risky country in which to tow a car on an 'A-frame’. Over the years there have been very occasional instances where a UK motorcaravanner was fined for A-framing in Germany. French authorities have repeatedly stated that A-framing conflicts with the French ‘Highway Code’ but (as far as I’m aware) no motorcaravanner (French or ‘foreign) has been prosecuted there so far. So, putting aside Spain (a definite no-go area for A-framing), Germany and potentially France, which are the "more and more countries that are now clamping down”? There is the likelihood that French will start to clampdown on/fine them in the (nearer) future - a very well respected professional in the UK leisure industry on another forum who has an A-frame set-up (but has nothing at all to do with the selling of A-frames) has recently been told by a couple of French friends involved in the French leisure industry (one owns a couple of campsites and the other sells 'camping cars') that it is now illegal there and advised him not to bring his car (ie on an A-frame) to France as I he could be fined. This therefore begs the question of how, if France are no longer willing to allow the use of A-frames how most of those who have them will get to their destination countries if they don't go through France ... Holland maybe? Far from an ideal scenario. I'll pm you with details of who it was so you know I'm not talking b*llocks! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 Mel B - 2017-02-12 1:39 PM..................................There is the likelihood that French will start to clampdown on/fine them in the (nearer) future - a very well respected professional in the UK leisure industry on another forum who has an A-frame set-up (but has nothing at all to do with the selling of A-frames) has recently been told by a couple of French friends involved in the French leisure industry (one owns a couple of campsites and the other sells 'camping cars') that it is now illegal there and advised him not to bring his car (ie on an A-frame) to France as I he could be fined.............. Hello Mel, welcome home! :-D Re the above, it has been illegal to tow a car (or any other vehicle) with a motorhome (or any other vehicle) - except as I described above - since before A-frames were invented. As I have said ad nauseam, it is not the A-frame that is illegal, it is towing one vehicle with another. Hitherto, with a few early exceptions, the French police seem, generally, to have turned a blind eye (I assume with at least tacit support from the government) to foreign vehicles infringing this regulation. If that is to change, it will be because the government has decided to insist on enforcement, not because the legality of the act has changed. Not to diminish your point, but just so people can understand the distinction - I hope! :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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