First coach built motorhome

[mathgears]

Hi I'm new to the forum so a bit of background about myself. I have owned multiple panel van conversion and even a demountable and toured Europe a good couple of times. Now we have two kids (0 and 3) we are super keen to jump on the coach built motorhome wagon. Myself and wife are both teachers so we will get plenty of use and we are even lucky enough to have the opportunity to spend 5 months touring Europe this spring and summer this year. So the task is to buy a motor home within our budget. We are Bristol based ideally want to spend between 15 - 25k, been looking for 2 weeks so far but must have something purchased before our trip in 6 weeks. I'm really struggling to place value on vehicles but have been doing a lot of reading and think I'm starting to get somewhere. I'm pretty flexible on layout but would like it comfortable for 2 adults 2 kids and something that hopefully doesn't give us too much trouble.

 

This one caught my eye because the coach looks quality, it looks tidy, it's got the bunks and big seating area, private seller (6 years owned and then 1 previous to him), 2.8 engine.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/322429843626

 

Reservations are -

 

the first owner did 3000 miles on first 8 years only (but I guess this second owner would have uncovered any faults in his 24000 miles he did)

 

He hasn't got any habitation checks done and serviced himself but claims it's problem free and has caused him no trouble except a flat tyre and someone blocking the toilet with wet wipes

 

It's plated at just over 3800 and I don't have a c1, I believe I can down plate but it won't leave me much payload, he said he loaded it with stuff for the holiday but empty water tanks and it weighed 3300 on a weight bridge

 

It's a 2003, not so worried about driving that age of cab but more availability of future parts.

 

 

Any thoughts about my reservations or anything I have not considered ? It's about an hour a half from me which is closer then most. Most vans i like seem to be 4 hours plus away.

 

Thanks

 

[Keithl]

mathgears - 2017-02-22 7:01 AM

 

It's plated at just over 3800 and I don't have a c1, I believe I can down plate but it won't leave me much payload, he said he loaded it with stuff for the holiday but empty water tanks and it weighed 3300 on a weight bridge

 

 

Hi Mathgears and welcome to the forum,

 

I'm afraid I would be rather suspicious of his fully loaded figure and ask to take it to a weighbridge in a 'known' state, ie empty of all personal possessions and water, waste, etc and with either an empty or full fuel tank so you can calculate figures from a known starting point.

 

There are general guideline figures for how much payload is required per person but I can't remember them right now. Hopefully someone else can enlighten you on what is the norm.

 

My personal view is you may be better finding a smaller van (that Laika is 7 berths so a fair size) that is already under 3,500 kg and giving a better payload.

 

Keith.

 

edit to add: It is a Laika Ecovip 2.1 Classic and appears to have a Mass In Running Order (MIRO) of 3,218 kg so IMO would have an unusable payload at 3,500 kg. A full explanation of MIRO is given at the bottom of this page...

 

http://www.southdownsmotorcaravans.co.uk/2003laika/2003ecovip/ecovip21classic/ecovip21classicspec.html

[PJay]

Agree with Kieth. get something within your licence cat.

Be aware of the need to fit child seats Not like a car only one side, so two side by side difficult. You probably need a dinette lay out, for this purpose , as you can't fit to side facing seats.With 2 small children, you are going to need a lot of basics to carry, so weight will be very important.

 

I wish you luck in your search, but personally, I would go for a caravan, in your circumstances. Long holidays (teachers) you will find you need other transport, on occasions !! You can carry a lot more in caravan and car! Also you don't have to Tax and service a n engine in a caravan!

 

PJay

 

[colin]

If that is the size of van that appeals then taking c1 would seem the best option.

[Brian Kirby]

mathgears - 2017-02-22 7:01 AM

 

Hi I'm new to the forum so a bit of background about myself. I have owned multiple panel van conversion and even a demountable and toured Europe a good couple of times. Now we have two kids (0 and 3) we are super keen to jump on the coach built motorhome wagon. Myself and wife are both teachers so we will get plenty of use and we are even lucky enough to have the opportunity to spend 5 months touring Europe this spring and summer this year. So the task is to buy a motor home within our budget. We are Bristol based ideally want to spend between 15 - 25k, been looking for 2 weeks so far but must have something purchased before our trip in 6 weeks. I'm really struggling to place value on vehicles but have been doing a lot of reading and think I'm starting to get somewhere. I'm pretty flexible on layout but would like it comfortable for 2 adults 2 kids and something that hopefully doesn't give us too much trouble.

 

This one caught my eye because the coach looks quality, it looks tidy, it's got the bunks and big seating area, private seller (6 years owned and then 1 previous to him), 2.8 engine.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/322429843626

 

Reservations are -

 

the first owner did 3000 miles on first 8 years only (but I guess this second owner would have uncovered any faults in his 24000 miles he did)

 

He hasn't got any habitation checks done and serviced himself but claims it's problem free and has caused him no trouble except a flat tyre and someone blocking the toilet with wet wipes

 

It's plated at just over 3800 and I don't have a c1, I believe I can down plate but it won't leave me much payload, he said he loaded it with stuff for the holiday but empty water tanks and it weighed 3300 on a weight bridge

 

It's a 2003, not so worried about driving that age of cab but more availability of future parts.

 

 

Any thoughts about my reservations or anything I have not considered ? It's about an hour a half from me which is closer then most. Most vans i like seem to be 4 hours plus away.

 

Thanks

I echo with Keith's comments above, especially on payload. Simply put, it won't work. The clue is in the present owner's tendency to travel with the water tank empty. With two small children, would you travel with no water on board? Unless the toilet has a separate tank, you would be unable even to flush the toilet. Say 100L water tank, so 100kg weight of water. Take 100kg off the present approximate payload and what is left? So, even without down-plating, the payload is, to me, simply insufficient.

 

Aim for 500kg payload or better, which dictates a MRO (mass in running order) of 3,000kg or less. Be aware that whatever the MRO was for the van when new, owners will probably have added options/accessories (for example an awning) which will have added to the basic MRO, so be very attentive to the actual weights, and make quite sure you know what people are talking about.

 

Given where you are now, with a trip presumably booked in 6 weeks time, I think it would be preferable to delay buying until later. Do we understand that you are presently "vanless"? If not, make do with what you have until after the Easter holidays, and spend the time researching availability. Two weeks is less time than most people take to find a suitable new van, so I'm afraid I think you're being very optimistic indeed in hoping to find a suitable van, get it taxed, insured, and re-registered, and fully de-bugged, before setting off abroad in it in six weeks time. Also remember the van will be tall, wide, and long, and you won't have driven it very far before you hit at least France in the Easter holidays, when roads (and campsites) will be busier than normal, and everyone else will be driving on the right! Possibly a bit of a steep learning curve for all round peace of mind?

 

You would, IMO, be wise to plan on at least one, albeit short, shakedown trip in the van, allowing sufficient time to get any faults sorted before you go off on a longer continental trip. Don't forget that we are now approaching the time of year when dealers are at their busiest, with new stocks coming in, and with customers awaiting preparation of their new vans. Not a good time to try to get workshop time allocated to fixing problems on vans that have been removed from the dealer's premises.

 

Even if you are vanless, I'd still say don't buy before you go because, realistically, there is insufficient time to complete all the above.

 

Re children, be aware that many older vans don't have seatbelts on rear seats, and that even those which do are usually difficult to pair with child seats or restraints. Also, bear in mind that retro-fitting seatbelts is in many cases impossible as the anchorage points cannot be installed and, even where anchorages could be installed, the seat bases themselves can lack sufficient strength. In most (all?) vans with rear belts, the seats are supported by an underlying steel cage to which the belts are attached, and it is the cage that is through bolted to chassis members.

 

Personally, I'd aim smaller to get the MRO down so as to leave a realistic payload (those children will, after all, grow, and begin to "need" all kinds of extra clutter!), and concentrate on 4 berth vans with 4 belted seats. Shortlist all you can identify, and then start looking at examples offered for sale.

[mathgears]

Thanks a lot guys,

 

think im feeling quite clear now that the Laika is out of the question really, in my time frame anyway due to the payload being a no go and me not really wanting to complecate things with a c1 license (my wife has one at least she could do the driving i suppose). I think the points about the payload not being feasible are very valuable.

 

I would have given myself more time to prepare for the trip but the opportunity to get time off work has only just come up really so I am full steam trying to get ready. I am not so worried about driving on the other side of the road in big vehicles as I've driven all sorts all over the world most of my life and feel comfortable adapting quickly, il certainly been keen to get it on a weekend or two away to test all things work, its a good point you make about service centers being busy.

 

We still have the current panel van conversion so we at least have 4 wheels and seats if it comes to it, I also have a good car that can tow, so a caravan with that could be a possible combo. Its not really preferable to our way of travel I have to admit as we like to move around often and at a whim and often free camp when opportunities arise. We are rather free spirited and its always worked great. I worry that a caravan would change our way of travel. But id take it over not going at all of course.

 

I think you are probably right though about looking for something smaller. We are used to dealing with far less space so even a four birth is going to seem like luxury!

 

The search continues and hopes stay hi.

[mathgears]

im thinking of something along the lines of one of these.

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ace-Milano-4-5-Berth-Motorhome-2005-lez-compliant-/172536297479?hash=item282bf6f807:g:878AAOSwUKxYmN4c

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Chausson-Welcome-9-4-to-5-Berth-with-Double-fixed-French-bed-and-4-Seat-Belts-/351975862770?hash=item51f36571f2:g:MyUAAOSwNnRYmXml

 

any thoughts on these two?

[Brian Kirby]

The Chausson has very low mileage, which can lead to problems with brakes etc. as it will have stood for long periods. I'd suggest you check the tyres for age and condition.

 

The Milano is wrapped in plastic inside. The mileage indicates regular use, and the replaced clutch seems about right - providing the whole assembly was done and not just the plate. Was puzzled by this comment "These are on the forecourt for 22,000 with 40/50 thousand on them." Is this a bona fide private seller? Just wondering. The reg No is visible, so verifying tax/MoT status should be easy.

 

Both are Luton bodied, so will be over 3.0M tall, so will cost you and arm and a leg if you go on French autoroutes!

 

I'd go for the Ace if it is genuine, as the 2.3 engine is a cracking little SOFIM commercial unit and not a de-specced car unit. The old 2.8 JTD is a tough engine, but it's a bit of a boozer, and a bit of a rough old nail by comparison! Just my opinions, of course! :-D

[globebuster]

If you're giving the Ace some serious consideration then check very, very carefully for damp.

 

Pay particular attention to the underside around the side skirts - and more importantly the whole width of the rear section.

 

I guess you are considering an overcab or bunks for the little ones? - with your budget I think you could be looking at a newer X250 cab with a bit of effort.

[shaggy]

If you want bunk beds, look out for a chausson flash 03 , we have one which we have had since new and have been very happy with it. It is 6.5m long has bunk beds at the back with reasonable storage under the bottom bunk, large overcab bed ( still under 3.0 m high) has a central dinette and 6 belts. There's a large shower room ideal for kids. I weighed ours with some water and fuel plus me in it at 2780kg so plenty of available weight still left. By the way mines not for sale if anyone thinks this is a sales pitch.

You should be able to find one around the £20k mark , they were very popular.

[mathgears]

Thanks guys, loads of good things to think about.

 

I have head good things about the 2.3 fiat engine so would be great if we did get one of those.

 

I have looked at a couple of x250 chassis models, i was a bit worried about the judder issue, and also it seems like I would have less choice or be fairly lucky to be getting one for under 25k that had a nice habitation unit on it? maybe I'm wrong on those points. I did test drive one and it was great to drive, had a flimsy scuttle and no engine cover though.

 

Like the sound of the flash 03 have definelty been eyeing up some of those but haven't found a genuine one in my price range yet.

 

Might look further into that ace one but interested in the french tolls situation, il do some further reading. We get charged a fair bit more then a car (almost twice as much i believe) even in the high top transit so if there another price above that for luton cabs that would be expensive.

 

Can anyone shed any light on why seats are plastic wrapped? is that to keep moisture off in winter or something?

 

I think if I'm buying private I will only do so subject to habitation check being done. I take it I should be able to get an engineer to come do this if I pay for it right? better to loose 200 quid then 20 000 on a poor van with issues.

 

Im not opposed to low profile at all, I actually prefer the look. My problem is making sure I have enough comfortable beds for all 4 of us. A small double would be alright for me and the mrs, but the kids would need either the overhead cab to give them space to fidget or bunkbeds. or two singles in some way. I could put the youngest one on the floor in the cot but we might out grow that situation in a year or two. I haven't found many vans with four decent sleeping beds 4 proper seat belts without an overhead cab (unless your looking at the 30k plus ones with the brilliant drop down beds over cab, thats what i would buy if i could)

 

again thank you for your help, your opinions are very valued

[Violet1956]

Apologies if you've already seen this one and ruled it out. A grand over your top end but you never know the dealer might want to shift it. Two hour drive away from you though and others on here caution about finding a dealer as close as you can so that it's easy to deal with any problems that arise.

 

I'm a newbie too so I have no idea about whether this would be truly suitable for you and your family. You mention a cot for the little one so small enough to require a proper baby seat. Don't know if the seatbelts on this are the right ones.

 

www://motorhomes.autotrader.co.uk/used-motorhomes/chausson/flash-03/2008-chausson-flash-03-diesel-poole-mfpa-2c929b9a598ce99a01598e291dcf2037/makemodel/make/chausson/model/flash-03

 

Wishing you luck in your endeavours.

 

Veronica

[mathgears]

hi veronica, thanks that one does look really nice and pretty much ticks all boxes. I kinda hoped to go private sale and save a bit of money but that doesnt seem a bad deal considering all the boxes it ticks. Il save that one to the list. Also seriously thinking about that ace milano.

The seat belts on both car seats (newborn and infant) fasten with a standard 3 point seat belt. I would check the fit when viewing but all I can assume untill then is it will fit if they are modernish 3 point belts.

 

That milano has a 50 liter water tank the guy also claims its the best spec motorhome he has, anyone got any idea how good the milanos are? high medium or budget end of spectrum.

 

So many options, so excited though still! gonna check out the nec motorhome show at weekend so it will give us more feel for size and layout. Just have to remember what we buy wont be so new

 

 

[Violet1956]

mathgears - 2017-02-23 12:39 PM

 

hi veronica, thanks that one does look really nice and pretty much ticks all boxes. I kinda hoped to go private sale and save a bit of money but that doesnt seem a bad deal considering all the boxes it ticks. Il save that one to the list. Also seriously thinking about that ace milano.

The seat belts on both car seats (newborn and infant) fasten with a standard 3 point seat belt. I would check the fit when viewing but all I can assume untill then is it will fit if they are modernish 3 point belts.

 

That milano has a 50 liter water tank the guy also claims its the best spec motorhome he has, anyone got any idea how good the milanos are? high medium or budget end of spectrum.

 

So many options, so excited though still! gonna check out the nec motorhome show at weekend so it will give us more feel for size and layout. Just have to remember what we buy wont be so new

 

Just a few ideas that come to mind from our experience.

 

We had much the same budget when we were looking last year for our first van. I looked at a few private deals but as me and the OH havent got a clue really about MHs I decided to go to a dealer with a dealer warranty in the end. Glad I did because an unforseen mechanical issue arose in the first three months which they fixed that would have cost us around £200+ at a guess. Important to remember if you are looking for a van than will be up to 10 years old is to check whether the tyres have been replaced at anytime. If the tyres are as old as the van itself then you may need to factor in the cost of replacing them even though the tread appears to be ok. Beware the slick gloss application to the outer walls of tyres which can obscure cracking. A full new set fitted (with a spare) set me back around £500 a few weeks ago. If I'd looked more closely at the MOTs that were present I would have noticed that cracking of the tyres had been observed previously and would have either asked the dealer to come down a bit more on the price or replace them. I also insisted the dealer change the cambelt on ours before we bought it having checked and found that it was due to be replaced soon.

 

I think when I asked for advice on here I was warned that there may be some issues that can be quite costly to resolve with any van that is getting on a bit. You may wish to factor this in when considering the budget.

 

Veronica

 

 

[mathgears]

back to the chausson 03, at the 20k mark? are we talking 2007 or newer or sub 2007 for that? thanks

[Violet1956]

mathgears - 2017-02-23 2:17 PM

 

back to the chausson 03, at the 20k mark? are we talking 2007 or newer or sub 2007 for that? thanks

 

From what I've seen on autotrader it would have to be sub 2007 to get closer to the £20K mark. But remember I claim no special expertise I rely on just my typing fingers and google ;-)

 

I don't even know when they started making them. Help anyone else whose knowledge exceeds mine?

[flicka]

Hi Mathgears

As an alternative to the previous Chausson, on Ford Transit chassis & within budget :-

http://motorhomes.autotrader.co.uk/used-motorhomes/chausson/flash-03/2007-chausson-flash-03-diesel-southampton-mfpa-2c929b9b59b106650159cb040d376770/makemodel/make/chausson/model/flash-03

 

Regarding the Ace Milano, they were the budget range from Swift & discontinued 2007/8 although some later models may have been first registered in 2009.

Swift, at that time, produced the Ace, Swift & Bessacarr range.. Basically same body shell for each model within it's range. The Ace models were the budget range habitation specification & different fabrics, with Bessacarr being the highest. So there are also alternative Swift & Bessacarr models with the same layout as the Ace.

Although almost any make of coachbuilt can be susceptable to damp issues, around that time Swift's did have problems regarding damp issues, particularly around floor to wall joint areas, rear wheel arches & entry step mountings. A search on the "Swift-Talk" forum holds lots of information.

Ace Milano alternatives were the Swift Sundance 590RS & Besscarr 435, there were also dealer "special" which further enhanced the "kit", generally based on the Swift named models. (i.e. Suntor = Brownhills, Lifestyle = Marquis),

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

mathgears - 2017-02-23 7:25 AM......................Can anyone shed any light on why seats are plastic wrapped? is that to keep moisture off in winter or something?..................

No, but the seats and the carpets are all wrapped. So, possibly someone with dogs but, more likely I suspect, is that the seller is in fact a trader. That odd comment I picked out about (apparently) other vehicles. If it is a trader, one might reasonably ask why the van is "posed" in a residential street (other than to create the impression of a private sale). Misleading your potential customer about your credentials isn't the most confidence inspiring opening pitch. It also begs a few questions about why the van isn't on a business premises, and whether the seller actually has the resources to cater for any problems that might arise. It just struck me as odd, so I thought it worth flagging-up my reaction. It may, of course, be totally genuine, and an amateur's cock-up in copying information from someone else's advert! However, in view of John's (flicka's) very detailed appraisal of the maker's vans at that period, the Ace is probably best passed over! Even if there were a cast-iron guarantee (do such things exist! :-)) on the whole vehicle, who needs the grief of trying to get a rotting motorhome repaired, just to recover some of its purchase value?

[shaggy]

mathgears - 2017-02-23 7:25 AM......................Can anyone shed any light on why seats are plastic wrapped? is that to keep moisture off in winter or something?..................

 

I believe gypsys keep the plastic on the seats in their caravans, at least on every caravan interior shown on Big Fat Gypsy wedding tv program had plastic on the seats.... Beware!

[shaggy]

 

 

Here's a chausson Flash 03 for sale in the motorhomes for sale section on this web site just over £15000

Mk7 transit as well.

 

 

https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/motorhomes/for-sale/motorhomes/ford-transit-chausson-22-flash-03/934000

[PJay]

shaggy - 2017-02-24 12:35 AM

 

 

 

Here's a chausson Flash 03 for sale in the motorhomes for sale section on this web site just over £15000

Mk7 transit as well.

 

 

https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/motorhomes/for-sale/motorhomes/ford-transit-chausson-22-flash-03/934000

 

Looks too cheap, to me!!

The biggest problem for the OP, is getting two child seats , side by side on the bench seat. IMO.

because there is only one side to the seat, the child seat can slip sideways. !

i remember seeing in a magazine some time ago, the danger of child seats , in this set up. May have been MMM

IMO motorhomes are not suitable for carrying young kids, hence most of us, are OLD retired peeps.!!

PJay

[Keithl]

PJay - 2017-02-24 9:05 AM

 

The biggest problem for the OP, is getting two child seats , side by side on the bench seat. IMO.

because there is only one side to the seat, the child seat can slip sideways. !

i remember seeing in a magazine some time ago, the danger of child seats , in this set up. May have been MMM

IMO motorhomes are not suitable for carrying young kids, hence most of us, are OLD retired peeps.!!

PJay

 

One solution to that is to put one child seat in the front passenger seat then the passenger sits next to the other child seat in the back with the seat against the wall.

 

Not absolutely ideal but does give the added bonus that the passenger can keep an eye on the kids.

 

Just my thoughts.

Keith.

[mathgears]

yeah i don't trust that 03 chausson a bit, looks about 10 grand too cheap to me, I'm a big optimist but I don't trust that one I'm afraid. That would be a dream if it were true.

 

yeah the guy with the milano was a bit suspect, he told me he bought it private 4 months ago so he could sleep in it when working in london but now has a flat to live in for the next 18 months for free so wanted to sell it cheap and quick. When I asked him what the previous owner was like he said he didn't now cause he never met him as he got it straight from the dealer, I mentioned I thought he said he got it private and he back tracked slightly claiming the dealer was a friend so qualified as a private sale....... could be honest but I'm inclined to agree with your instincts it looked a bit suspect and if the honesty is up at 99% what else is being hidden? anyway its sold now so don't need to worry about that one. The search continues!

 

been reading on the car seat thing, what a nightmare, I guess we could put one up front no worries and one on window side, that could work well.

 

The adventures will be worth the pay off of all these logistical nightmares, I'm getting a good idea of what I'm looking for at least now!f

 

[Violet1956]

I think PJ makes a good point about how practical motorhomes are for those with tiny children and her observations have started me thinking about our experiences as tuggers when our children were as young as yours. All our wandering was done from a base caravan which had a full awning - handy for all those extra bits of kit the babies and young children need e.g. their ride on toys/kid size chairs etc. We used to stow our bikes and a ride on kid’s tractor in the van on our journey. If you like to cycle with your kids how are you going to fit the bikes with the baby seats attached - will they fit easily on a cycle rack at the back of an MH or will you require a more elaborate/expensive set up to accommodate them? If you don’t have a C1 and you are going under the 7m mark I think you might find it toddler hell from time to time without a full awning and that would restrict your ability to wander at will anyway. Things to think about include (i) how practical would it be to read them a bedtime story if they were in bunks/bed at the back of the van with you cramped into an uncomfortable floor space beside them (ii) how easy will it be to wash them in a cramped shower room or change a nappy in a small motorhome especially one with a dinette layout (iii) does the little one need space to crawl or steady themselves without the risk of colliding with the furniture (iv) How will you keep both of them far enough and for long enough away from the stove when cooking?

It’s your call of course and you know your children’s needs and wants better than I do. I don’t take any pleasure from pointing out the possible negatives as I fully understand why you find owning a motorhome an exciting prospect. Just offering some food for thought before you buy something that is way more expensive to buy and maintain than a caravan. On top of that older vans are becoming more and more restricted when it comes to entering city zones as some recent posts regarding restrictions in France on here demonstrate. You may have to forget rolling up close to some major attractions in Europe unless you have a modern van.

 

Veronica

 

[PJay]

Violet1956 - 2017-02-25 11:52 AM

 

I think PJ makes a good point about how practical motorhomes are for those with tiny children and her observations have started me thinking about our experiences as tuggers when our children were as young as yours. All our wandering was done from a base caravan which had a full awning - handy for all those extra bits of kit the babies and young children need e.g. their ride on toys/kid size chairs etc. We used to stow our bikes and a ride on kid’s tractor in the van on our journey. If you like to cycle with your kids how are you going to fit the bikes with the baby seats attached - will they fit easily on a cycle rack at the back of an MH or will you require a more elaborate/expensive set up to accommodate them? If you don’t have a C1 and you are going under the 7m mark I think you might find it toddler hell from time to time without a full awning and that would restrict your ability to wander at will anyway. Things to think about include (i) how practical would it be to read them a bedtime story if they were in bunks/bed at the back of the van with you cramped into an uncomfortable floor space beside them (ii) how easy will it be to wash them in a cramped shower room or change a nappy in a small motorhome especially one with a dinette layout (iii) does the little one need space to crawl or steady themselves without the risk of colliding with the furniture (iv) How will you keep both of them far enough and for long enough away from the stove when cooking?

It’s your call of course and you know your children’s needs and wants better than I do. I don’t take any pleasure from pointing out the possible negatives as I fully understand why you find owning a motorhome an exciting prospect. Just offering some food for thought before you buy something that is way more expensive to buy and maintain than a caravan. On top of that older vans are becoming more and more restricted when it comes to entering city zones as some recent posts regarding restrictions in France on here demonstrate. You may have to forget rolling up close to some major attractions in Europe unless you have a modern van.

 

Veronica

 

I am glad you agre with me Violet, BUt we are looking at it from a Mums point of view. We've been been there. done that , as the saying goes!

PJay