Bulletguy Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 The government has been defeated after the House of Lords said ministers should guarantee EU nationals' right to stay in the UK after Brexit. The vote, by 358 to 256, is the first Parliamentary defeat for the government's Brexit bill. That's a sizable majority. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39133400 Estimated cost (up to now) for UK to exit is €60 billion. Not to mention we will still need to continue paying even when, and IF, we leave. https://www.channel4.com/news/government-defeated-on-eu-nationals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starvin marvin Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 More important Man City have defeated Huddersfield Town! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted March 1, 2017 Author Share Posted March 1, 2017 Oh dear...... (lol)(lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 Yes as it says in the clip a €60bn bill and having to pay in after we leave certainly wasnt on the side of the £350m a week bus. Again its something else that was kept from the public. They certainly didnt vote for this thats for sure. This news surely makes the referendum null and void or at least requires a second one once the public are informed of the true cost of Brexit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet1956 Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 One thing the other member states should consider is enacting directive that preserve the rights of European citizens to reside in another EU state who find themselves in such an invidious position when their country of origin or the one in which they now reside decides to withdraw. It is wholly unacceptable for hundreds of thousands of people to be used as bargaining chips in the negotiations that will follow the triggering of Article 50. The UK does not bear the entire responsibility for that. The EU could act quickly in order to secure certainty for all those nationals who are lawfully exercising their freedom of movement rights. What more pressing matters could they possibly have on the agenda that could not be set aside so that this could be dealt with now? I can’t see that there is any justification for the EU’s insistence that this has to be left until Article 50 is triggered. By doing so are they not undermining the freedom of movement principle which they to hold dear? Who would ever feel safe exercising their freedom of movement rights if they were at risk of having to give up their jobs, their home or take their children out of an education system that for many is the only one they have known, the timing of which could be critical to their satisfactory progression? I don’t think our government alone is to be criticised over this issue. Are they not hide bound by the EU’s insistence that this cannot be settled before Article 50 is triggered? There is no guarantee of reciprocity if we take unilateral action by granting the current compliment of EU citizens the right to remain before we trigger article 50. How could we be certain that the majority of member states would give their to support it? Veronica Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 Time to upload about a 100 temporary Lords methinks B-) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 Barryd999 - 2017-03-01 10:18 PM Yes as it says in the clip a €60bn bill and having to pay in after we leave certainly wasnt on the side of the £350m a week bus. Again its something else that was kept from the public. They certainly didnt vote for this thats for sure. This news surely makes the referendum null and void or at least requires a second one once the public are informed of the true cost of Brexit. You forget we will be asking for our share of the assets that we've paid for ;-) .........But I guess they can keep the CD collection :D ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted March 2, 2017 Author Share Posted March 2, 2017 pelmetman - 2017-03-02 8:13 AM Barryd999 - 2017-03-01 10:18 PM Yes as it says in the clip a €60bn bill and having to pay in after we leave certainly wasnt on the side of the £350m a week bus. Again its something else that was kept from the public. They certainly didnt vote for this thats for sure. This news surely makes the referendum null and void or at least requires a second one once the public are informed of the true cost of Brexit. You forget we will be asking for our share of the assets that we've paid for ;-) .........But I guess they can keep the CD collection :D ....... You need to watch and listen carefully to that Channel 4 clip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 Barryd999 - 2017-03-01 10:18 PM Yes as it says in the clip a €60bn bill and having to pay in after we leave certainly wasnt on the side of the £350m a week bus. Again its something else that was kept from the public. It certainly makes you wonder why David Cameron kept it from the public. :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted March 2, 2017 Author Share Posted March 2, 2017 malc d - 2017-03-02 4:20 PM Barryd999 - 2017-03-01 10:18 PM Yes as it says in the clip a €60bn bill and having to pay in after we leave certainly wasnt on the side of the £350m a week bus. Again its something else that was kept from the public. It certainly makes you wonder why David Cameron kept it from the public. :-| Neither side were given the full facts Malc which to me is all the more reason why either a second referendum should be called, or the decision made in Parliament. Brexiters were sold a pig in a poke and many now realise that, but understandably it's hard to accept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerC Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 Bulletguy - 2017-03-02 5:09 PMmalc d - 2017-03-02 4:20 PMBarryd999 - 2017-03-01 10:18 PMYes as it says in the clip a €60bn bill and having to pay in after we leave certainly wasnt on the side of the £350m a week bus. Again its something else that was kept from the public. It certainly makes you wonder why David Cameron kept it from the public. :-|Neither side were given the full facts Malc which to me is all the more reason why either a second referendum should be called, or the decision made in Parliament. Brexiters were sold a pig in a poke and many now realise that, but understandably it's hard to accept. Rather presumptuous to say many realise the 'pig in a poke' scenario. Clearly some feel that way but there are equally, if not more, now determined to want to leave given the stance (domineering, dogmatic....even dictatorial) of the EU mandarins. Junker did the exit side a great 'service'...the arrogant fool. The so called 'polls' never seem to take into account if those responding voted in the referendum or not. Bearing in mind that only 72.2% voted in the referendum that leave a potential 13,000,000 non voters in the referendum to now comment and appear as though they have changed their minds. The bottom line is that if democracy is to be valued, accepting that their were falsifications, misrepresentations and crystal ball predictions emanating from both sides, the competition was there, it was open for all to partake and add their argumentative/persuasive value and resulted in the populace voting 'out'. End of story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 Bulletguy - 2017-03-02 5:09 PM malc d - 2017-03-02 4:20 PM Barryd999 - 2017-03-01 10:18 PM Yes as it says in the clip a €60bn bill and having to pay in after we leave certainly wasnt on the side of the £350m a week bus. Again its something else that was kept from the public. It certainly makes you wonder why David Cameron kept it from the public. :-| Neither side were given the full facts Malc which to me is all the more reason why either a second referendum should be called, or the decision made in Parliament. Brexiters were sold a pig in a poke and many now realise that, but understandably it's hard to accept. Hahahahaha........The scaremongering continues (lol) ........Watcha yer gonna do Mrs Merkel if we dont pay?....... Invade? :D ...... Perhaps that's why they suddenly decided they need a European army? ;-) .......Old habits die hard dont they? >:-) ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 O.K. - so let's suppose we have another referendum. If the result of that is 52% remain and 48% leave - what will be the next step ? :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 malc d - 2017-03-02 9:00 PM O.K. - so let's suppose we have another referendum. If the result of that is 52% remain and 48% leave - what will be the next step ? :-| Perpetual motions :D ...... The sh*t continues part two (lol) ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted March 2, 2017 Author Share Posted March 2, 2017 RogerC - 2017-03-02 7:20 PM Rather presumptuous to say many realise the 'pig in a poke' scenario. Clearly some feel that way but there are equally, if not more, now determined to want to leave given the stance... The so called 'polls' never seem to take into account if those responding voted in the referendum or not. Bearing in mind that only 72.2% voted in the referendum that leave a potential 13,000,000 non voters in the referendum to now comment and appear as though they have changed their minds. By the same token that also means 13 million potential extra voters for your Brexit camp Roger which would give you a huge, and certainly a more credible majority, in a second referendum. If so absolutely sure of this Nirvana which Brexit is going to take us all to.........what would you have to fear from calling a second referendum? :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted March 2, 2017 Author Share Posted March 2, 2017 malc d - 2017-03-02 9:00 PM O.K. - so let's suppose we have another referendum. If the result of that is 52% remain and 48% leave - what will be the next step ? :-| Unfinished business Malc! (lol) Personally i now feel more certain than ever it would go Remain but with a sizeable percent majority. Why else do you think Brexiters are now chomping at the bit to get Art 50 triggered asap? They know they only just scraped in by a whisker and now running scared witless at the thought of it being overturned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 malc d - 2017-03-02 9:00 PM O.K. - so let's suppose we have another referendum. If the result of that is 52% remain and 48% leave - what will be the next step ? :-| I would say it would show that the public is having second thoughts and the whole thing needs putting on hold for maybe five or ten years. I honestly think if there were a vote now that would probably be the result. All the polls indicate so. Reading between the lines I think its also apparent that a lot of Brexiteers are certainly having doubts now if they were honest about it but of course they deny it but the cracks are starting to show, certainly in the people I talk to. I dont blame them for that, they thought it was a good idea at the time but the longer it goes on, the drop in the pound, prices rising, the facts coming through that its unlikely to reduce immigration, its going to cost a fortune and certainly the NHS wont be getting £350m a week out of it the shine has gone off. If there was a second referendum and it was still a vote to leave I would reluctantly accept it but I really think it needs to be a much more decisive than it is. Really the answer to the question, "Does the UK want to leave the EU" right now is, we dont know. Leave now on one single and questionable vote and it will cause an irreparable rift and division in our country for sure. The hard core leavers dont seem bothered about that though. They want Brexit at any cost, they simply dont care. There is nothing stopping us having a referendum in five or ten years time but right now we are on the fence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muswell Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 Barryd999 - 2017-03-03 11:51 AM malc d - 2017-03-02 9:00 PM O.K. - so let's suppose we have another referendum. If the result of that is 52% remain and 48% leave - what will be the next step ? :-| If there was a second referendum and it was still a vote to leave I would reluctantly accept it but I really think it needs to be a much more decisive than it is. . Well you couldn't do much better than the conditions for voting set out in the Trade Union Act 2016 The main provisions of the Act: increase to 50% the voting threshold for union ballots turnouts (while retaining the requirement for there to be a simple majority of votes in favour of industrial action); introduce an additional requirement that 40% of all those entitled to vote in the ballot must vote in favour of industrial action in certain public services such as health, education, fire and transport (see below); Surely the decision to leave the EU is as important as this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 Bulletguy - 2017-03-02 9:44 PM malc d - 2017-03-02 9:00 PM O.K. - so let's suppose we have another referendum. If the result of that is 52% remain and 48% leave - what will be the next step ? :-| Unfinished business Malc! (lol) Personally i now feel more certain than ever it would go Remain but with a sizeable percent majority. Why else do you think Brexiters are now chomping at the bit to get Art 50 triggered asap? They know they only just scraped in by a whisker and now running scared witless at the thought of it being overturned. The pigs are flying low over Cheshire today :D ........ Roll on the 15th march......Think I'll have a party B-) ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave225 Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 There was possibly one bit of good news that I read in one of the papers. The EU has stated that if we leave, as we will, then it will refuse to pay the pensions of UK ex EU personnel. If that meant Kinnock, Mandelson and all the other gravy train troughers were to lose some of their gross entitlements, then that would be something to cheer. Maybe explains why they are so desperate to try and keep us in. Nothing to do with the 'moral high ground' then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted March 3, 2017 Author Share Posted March 3, 2017 pelmetman - 2017-03-03 12:53 PM Roll on the 15th march......Think I'll have a party B-) ...... You've just proved my point in both those posts so thanks for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted March 3, 2017 Author Share Posted March 3, 2017 Dave225 - 2017-03-03 2:58 PM There was possibly one bit of good news that I read in one of the papers. The EU has stated that if we leave, as we will, then it will refuse to pay the pensions of UK ex EU personnel. If that meant Kinnock, Mandelson and all the other gravy train troughers were to lose some of their gross entitlements, then that would be something to cheer. Maybe explains why they are so desperate to try and keep us in. Nothing to do with the 'moral high ground' then? Are you wishing to deprive "poor" Mr Farage of his pension too? ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerC Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 Bulletguy - 2017-03-02 9:35 PMRogerC - 2017-03-02 7:20 PMRather presumptuous to say many realise the 'pig in a poke' scenario. Clearly some feel that way but there are equally, if not more, now determined to want to leave given the stance...The so called 'polls' never seem to take into account if those responding voted in the referendum or not. Bearing in mind that only 72.2% voted in the referendum that leave a potential 13,000,000 non voters in the referendum to now comment and appear as though they have changed their minds.By the same token that also means 13 million potential extra voters for your Brexit camp Roger which would give you a huge, and certainly a more credible majority, in a second referendum.If so absolutely sure of this Nirvana which Brexit is going to take us all to.........what would you have to fear from calling a second referendum? :-S 13 million more exit voters? Don't be so facetious. Clearly there are those who would vote in/out or as last time not bother..... so your comment really is of no relevance, it is merely trivialising of a rather important issue. My point is the pollsters are not making the figures to be of any consequence if they do not ascertain if people voted or not in the referendum and if those who did not vote are included in the pollsters stats then the figures are meaningless. Once more you are adding trivialisation and emotion erroneously I see. I have never said leaving the EU will bring 'Nirvana' as you put it. What I do feel is that the EU is becoming/has become a domineering entity, driven by self interested mandarins/politicians and I can see it either failing gloriously or morphing into a United States of Europe. The bottom line is IMO it is a failed experiment being propped up by the 'bigger countries' whose interest is self serving in terms of influence and power......something I feel we would be well placed to be out of. So Nirvana? No not really just the ability to prosper, or indeed fall, by our own efforts under our own rules under our own leadership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted March 3, 2017 Author Share Posted March 3, 2017 RogerC - 2017-03-03 8:55 PM 13 million more exit voters? Don't be so facetious.... I said potential.....ie, probable, develop to. It's a figure the Brexit camp could garner, nurture and persuade say 2/3rds of which would then give them an outstanding victory......something to be really proud of instead of an abysmal 3.7%. Of course it could always go to Remain..........but Brexiters are very self assured so would have no fear of that happening......or do they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candapack Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 RogerC - 2017-03-03 8:55 PM So Nirvana? No not really just the ability to prosper, or indeed fall, by our own efforts under our own rules under our own leadership. Ah, Roger. You put the case for an independent Scotland most eloquently. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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