chas Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 I have a 05 coach built motorhome with seat belts fitted for driver and passenger. The rear is the typical end lounge with side seats facing in, which of course make up a double bed. The vehicle is under 3500k in weight. Now I don't need cries of indignation from folk stating the obvious that never to carry rear passengers in unbelted seats while on the move. >:-) but I have tried unsuccessfully to find out how the law stands on this situation, I am only thinking if an emergency arose with the need to do so. How does the law stand ? Thanks for any legal comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJay Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 Do bus still have side facing seats? If so then don't see the difference re the van. Personally would not want to sit on side facing seats, but in an emergency why not? Will be interested in what the knowledgeable people on here , have to say PJay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerry McG Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 item S1 on pg2 of your V5C has No of seats (inc Driver) If it says 2, then you only carry 1 passenger in the cab - none in the Hab area. It is based on the no of seatbelts in the vehicle - my V5C says 4 and I have 2 belted seats in the dinnete area. no belt, no carry passenger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 Before the regulations regarding 'belted travel' seats was tightened up you could find rear lounge models with lap belts fitted to the side facing seats. I am not sure whether these would be deemed 'legal' if they were fitted at the time the vehicle was built but what I can say, with some certainty, is that they are definitely dangerous in the event of a collision or even when cornering. The same is true of travelling on an unbelted seat - even in an emergency. I would very much counsel against it. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 Chas It’s probably simplest if you browse through the following https://www.caravanguard.co.uk/news/motorhome-seat-belts-time-belt-10291/ https://www.campervanlife.com/vehicles/seat-belt-regulations/ Given the age of your motorhome, there does not seem to be any legal prohibition in you carrying ADULTS on the rear side-facing seats, but carrying CHILDREN as passengers in a vehicle has its own set of regulations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brock Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 I'd add to Derek's point a comment made by Lifesure Insurance, "While passengers can be carried without seatbelts in older motorhomes, it is the driver’s responsibility to make sure it is safe. Passengers not wearing seatbelts pose a risk to themselves and to others, and you may face prosecution in the event of an accident should the police deem the seating arrangement to be unsafe. Your insurer may also refuse to pay out in the event of a claim." My take on this is that the law from 2007 is quite clear for motorhomes. Prior to that, the law will be whatever a Court decides on a case by case basis based on whether the seating arrangement is judged safe or not. The driver won't be the judge. I know of no law that is interpreted differently in an emergency situation unless the emergency was catered for in the law itself eg medics in ambulances. PJay, I've posted about buses on Colin's thread about buses. Public transport is subjected to a different regulation regime based on the nature of the service, type of route, and vehicle types. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJay Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 Brock - 2017-03-08 2:54 PM I'd add to Derek's point a comment made by Lifesure Insurance, "While passengers can be carried without seatbelts in older motorhomes, it is the driver’s responsibility to make sure it is safe. Passengers not wearing seatbelts pose a risk to themselves and to others, and you may face prosecution in the event of an accident should the police deem the seating arrangement to be unsafe. Your insurer may also refuse to pay out in the event of a claim." My take on this is that the law from 2007 is quite clear for motorhomes. Prior to that, the law will be whatever a Court decides on a case by case basis based on whether the seating arrangement is judged safe or not. The driver won't be the judge. I know of no law that is interpreted differently in an emergency situation unless the emergency was catered for in the law itself eg medics in ambulances. PJay, I've posted about buses on Colin's thread about buses. Public transport is subjected to a different regulation regime based on the nature of the service, type of route, and vehicle types. I thought maybe Bus would come under a different category ! So any Mh reg prior to 2007 are not subject to this , then? Our van 2006, but does have 4 seat belts , so we could carry 2 more in the dinette, rear facing seats? In an emergency? Not that we would want to .BUT child seats would have to have belts, to hold in place So many different rules and regs !! Nothing is ever clear cut these days !! PJay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocs Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 The summing up here seems correct but with one exception. That's the one pointed out earlier about the number of seats stated n V5. If stated, no more than that number may be carried. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 The following link gives guidance on the information that needs to be provided to the DVLA when a new vehicle is to be first UK-registered. http://tinyurl.com/zequ3jy It will be seen that the advice given regarding "The ‘Number of Seats (including driver)' datum is "Take this information from the Certificate of Conformity or you can count the number of seats in the vehicle.” There are countries in which the number of people that a motorhome can legally carry has been based on a formula involving the vehicle’s payload, and (more recently) regulations referring to ‘travel seats’ have been introduced. But (to the best of my knowledge) the Number of Seats value on a V5C does not prevent a greater number of people being carried in the vehicle as long as the requisite legal requirements for passenger-carrying in that vehicle are met. So if Chas’s motorhome’s V5C has (say) two as the ‘Number of Seats (including driver)’, because his motorhome is 2005-vintage he could still legally carry (say) four people - two in the cab and two on the side-seats - as the V5C figure does not overrule the relevant passenger-carrying regulations relating to a 2005 vehicle. This has come up several times in the past (example here) http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Anomaly-on-V5C-Re-Number-of-Seats/35711/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chas Posted March 9, 2017 Author Share Posted March 9, 2017 Thanks for all the replies , I think it sums it up, the law does not make it very clear leaving a lot to common sense . Another thing I think does need addressing is why for instance are manufacturers allowed to offer say 4 berth motorhomes with only 2 belted seats ?. Should they not by law display fixed signs pointing out this to potential customers, or perhaps that as to be covered by "common sense" as well (^) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJay Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 Our v5 issued with the van, stated 2 seats 20206. The van has 4 seat belts, so can carry 4 passengers. We found on the swift forum, that others had the same, and contacted Swift, re this. We also contacted Swift, and where sent a letter stating that it did have 4 belted seats, which we should send to DVLA for the V5 to be amended, we did not bother to do this at the time, as only2 of us in van. However last year we upgraded the weight , and sent the V5 of to DVLA for amendment, with the copy of letter from Swift, re the seat belts. we now have a V5 with the new weight and the 4 belts showing.So when we come to sell the van, we have a legal 4 seats showing, though the van can sleep 5 people ! PJay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocs Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 I'm not entirely convinced that, if the V5 states 2 passengers including driver, I would want to test it in court if I am reported by a policeman. Everything I've read on this is so contradictory or confusing that I'd probably default to the lowest common denominator. But, that's just me. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 Robert This 4-page MHFacts 2014 discussion may be of interest http://forums.motorhomefacts.com/231-bailey-motorhomes/118988-what-does-say-your-v5.html It’s easy to see that you might be prosecuted for not complying with the UK’s passenger-carrying regulations - transporting small children in un-belted seats for instance. But I can’t envisage a scenario where - despite fully complying with the UK’s passenger-carrying regulations - you would be successfully prosecuted for a 'passenger-carrying' offence merely because the ‘Number of Seats’ datum on your motorhome’s V5C failed to match your motorhome’s seating arrangement. There are three separate elements here - the UK laws relating to motorhome passenger-carrying, that can be defined specifically; which seats can be legally used to carry passengers, which will vary from motorhome to motorhome; and the legal validity of the Number of Seats datum on the V5C document that (I would have thought) is highlly questionable. The obvious approach for a motorhome owner who knows (or believes) that the Number of Seats value on their vehicle’s V5C is wrong would be to get the DVLA to correct this. Once that’s done the owner can study the UK’s passenger-carrying regulations and establish how they apply to his/her usage of the vehicle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 Years ago, I used our 1990 Hymer B694 to tow a horsebox trailer full of posh picnic stuff back from a "Last night of the Proms" in the parkland of a stately home where we had set up a dining table and chairs for 26 people. We'd got someone else to tow it there but they left early, leaving us to do the towing and we also accumulated other stray people who needed a lift home. The dinner had gone well and I decided to wait until the crowds had left before setting off. I was driving and so remained TT but the passengers sat drinking sprits or liqueurs under the stars while we waited. We had the spectacle of the huge stage being dismantled and folded on to its underlying mega trailer. We set of back at about 1 am. I hitched up the trailer OK and eight passengers climbed on board, none of them entirely sober. We had three belted seats including mine and I sent the potentially disruptive drunks to the rear lounge. A committee of ladies took seats in close proximity, either to protect me or more likely to give advice. We were on dry grass and so despite the heavy load and the two front wheels pulling four more axles, we got moving. But for some inexplicable reason we could not turn left without mysterious loud banging noises, which forced me to circle to the right, which led me to the rear exit from the Park, along what turned out to be a long, tortuous and at times hilly farm track. One of the gates we had to get through was only just wide enough and I took this journey slowly and carefully. Deer crossed our path and the drunks in the back, not yet asleep because they needed a pee, demanded the opportunity to try to catch one. It took 40 minutes to reach a tarmac road, fortunately using a right turn to get on to it. I stopped and in the pitch black night, all the men lined up on the verge for a pee. Rolling again, much easier now, we only travelled a few miles on narrow and twisty country lanes when we came upon the folded stage trailer, stuck on a tight bend. We watched for half an hour while the crew got it free - and then followed it to the motorway, because they'd told us they were heading that way. Unfortunately we couldn't keep up but we found the motorway anyway and had a peaceful leg of about 30 miles at about 50 mph while my drunks all went to sleep, presumably dreaming of deer. We pulled on to our drive and left both MH and horse box as they were and I got myself a drink to unwind. The things you do when you're young eh? Well done the Hymer though, apart from refusing to turn left with the horse box on the back, the explanation for which remained a mystery, it performed extremely well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocs Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 Derek Uzzell - 2017-03-10 8:19 AM Robert This 4-page MHFacts 2014 discussion may be of interest http://forums.motorhomefacts.com/231-bailey-motorhomes/118988-what-does-say-your-v5.html It’s easy to see that you might be prosecuted for not complying with the UK’s passenger-carrying regulations - transporting small children in un-belted seats for instance. But I can’t envisage a scenario where - despite fully complying with the UK’s passenger-carrying regulations - you would be successfully prosecuted for a 'passenger-carrying' offence merely because the ‘Number of Seats’ datum on your motorhome’s V5C failed to match your motorhome’s seating arrangement. There are three separate elements here - the UK laws relating to motorhome passenger-carrying, that can be defined specifically; which seats can be legally used to carry passengers, which will vary from motorhome to motorhome; and the legal validity of the Number of Seats datum on the V5C document that (I would have thought) is highlly questionable. The obvious approach for a motorhome owner who knows (or believes) that the Number of Seats value on their vehicle’s V5C is wrong would be to get the DVLA to correct this. Once that’s done the owner can study the UK’s passenger-carrying regulations and establish how they apply to his/her usage of the vehicle. Derek You may well be correct. My stance would simply make sure I was on the right side of the law rather than leave it debatable. It would be interesting to know if anyone has actually had the DVLA increase the number of passengers above two where there are only two belted seats. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 The only valid reason I can think of for someone asking the DVLA to increase the Number of Seats figure on a vehicle’s V5C document would be (as P Jay mentions above) where the original figure is incorrect, or when additional belted-seats have been installed. My Rapido has 4 belted seats and that’s the Number of Seats on the motorhome’s V5C. Ths link https://www.gov.uk/change-vehicle-details-registration-certificate/changes-youll-need-to-update suggests that if the DVLA is notified of a change in a vehicle’s seating capacity, an inspection might not be required. I suspect that, if I deliberately misinformed the DVLA that my Rapido now has 5 seats, this would quite likely be accepted. However, if I told the DVLA it has 8 seats, they might well want to inspect the vehicle. What would be the benefit in lying to the DVLA about the number of seats a motorhome has? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will86 Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 chas - 2017-03-09 8:23 AM Another thing I think does need addressing is why for instance are manufacturers allowed to offer say 4 berth motorhomes with only 2 belted seats ?. Should they not by law display fixed signs pointing out this to potential customers, or perhaps that as to be covered by "common sense" as well (^) A berth is a bunk, as on a ship a train or a caravan. With a M/H it caters for visitors staying overnight when on a site. Not travelling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocs Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 Derek Uzzell - 2017-03-10 2:08 PM The only valid reason I can think of for someone asking the DVLA to increase the Number of Seats figure on a vehicle’s V5C document would be (as P Jay mentions above) where the original figure is incorrect, or when additional belted-seats have been installed. My Rapido has 4 belted seats and that’s the Number of Seats on the motorhome’s V5C. Ths link https://www.gov.uk/change-vehicle-details-registration-certificate/changes-youll-need-to-update suggests that if the DVLA is notified of a change in a vehicle’s seating capacity, an inspection might not be required. I suspect that, if I deliberately misinformed the DVLA that my Rapido now has 5 seats, this would quite likely be accepted. However, if I told the DVLA it has 8 seats, they might well want to inspect the vehicle. What would be the benefit in lying to the DVLA about the number of seats a motorhome has? Not sure who is suggesting lying to DVLA - shame on them whoever they are. My point was to cover the pre-2007 motorhome with two passengers on the V5. If they were able to have that amended legally, then, theoretically, they could carry more passengers without seat belts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 I don’t really understand your logic. This O&ALive link relates to motorhomes and seat-belts https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/motorhomes/articles/practical-advice/buying-owning-seatbelts You’ll see that, from 1965 to 19 October 2007, seat-belts needed to be fitted only to a motorhome’s cab seats. So, for any motorhome registered prior to 20 October 2007, there is no legal requirement for the seats in its habitation area to be fitted with belts, and adult passengers can legally be transported in unbelted habitation-area seats. The idea seems to have been put forward that the Number of Seats figure on a motorhome’s V5C document overrides general UK seat-belt law, and (presumably) even if the figure is incorrect, or seat-belt law permits passengers to be carried in unbelted rear seating, it’s the V5C datum that takes precedence. That’s clearly not the case. I’d also challenge the ‘risk’ suggestion. Let’s say a UK policeman stops a motorhome that is carrying passengers in unbelted seats. The policeman may believe that a seat-belt-related offence has been committed, but he/she cannot demand that the motorhome’s driver immediately produce the vehicle’s V5C so that the Number of Seats datum can be checked, because UK law does not allow him/her to do this. As I said earlier, it’s certainly possible for a motorcaravanner to be prosecuted for a seat-belt-related offence, but the grounds for prosecution will not be based merely on the V5C Number of Seats figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocs Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 I thought my post was self-explanatory. And logical. 8-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emmerson Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 Gerry McG - 2017-03-08 12:15 PM item S1 on pg2 of your V5C has No of seats (inc Driver) If it says 2, then you only carry 1 passenger in the cab - none in the Hab area. It is based on the no of seatbelts in the vehicle - my V5C says 4 and I have 2 belted seats in the dinnete area. no belt, no carry passenger. My S1 is blank. Does that mean I have to stand up to drive it? :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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