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Radicalised in Prison - Why allow it?


StuartO

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It seems that the Westminster Attacker was probably radicalised in prison,where there is apparently a lot of it going on.  This can only happen if prisoners are allowed to associate in private, so why do we allow this to happen?

 

Freedom of association is considered an important aspect of the humane way we deal with people in prison  But why is that, if association with other prisoners can be abused in this way?

 

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Politicians have got away with cutting prison staff and overcrowded prisons because their voters don't care what happens in prison. What they fail to realise is with 'tough' prisons, prisoners come out worse than when they went in. :-S
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StuartO - 2017-03-25 2:23 PM

 

  This can only happen if prisoners are allowed to associate in private, so why do we allow this to happen?

How can we stop it when prisons are so overcrowded there are are several in each cell, banged up 23 hours a day because there are no staff to supervise them :-S

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Violet1956 - 2017-03-25 2:42 PM

 

I think the man involved hasn't served a sentence for while. It seems the powers that be have only recently woken up to the radicalisation that was taking place.

 

Veronica

Plus we send a lot of people to prison, and our prisons are overcrowded. We also have a shortage of warders so, to keep the inmates reasonably quiescent they are allowed greater liberties. Broadly, the alternatives are send fewer to prison, build more prison places, engage more warders, or lock up inmates for longer.

 

Disadvantages? The public apparently demands criminals be imprisoned, so politically unpopular. Building prisons is expensive (especially the PFI ones), so more borrowing/higher taxes. Employing more warders ditto. Lock up for longer has been shown to result in more disturbance, so requiring more warders to maintain control, so ditto again.

 

Choices? Disappoint the electorate's demand for imprisoning criminals, borrow more, or raise taxes.

 

Government response? Steady as you are, and hope no-one notices. Only now they have. So, we either have to reduce the prison population and risk unpopularity, borrow more during austerity and risk unpopularity, or raise taxes and risk unpopularity, or a mix of all three. Different groups would be upset by each approach so one has to choose who to upset, or go for the mix and upset everyone! :-) Government is so easy, isn't it? :-D

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I think some prisoners have a better life in prison than outside

There should not be TV's just a bed and food, make it hard for them. Prison should be a punishment, not a holiday. ! possibly different kind of prison, depending on the crime? Violent crimes and say fraud, should not carry the same sentence fraudsters obviously have brains, so make them repay the money and work at some kind of. service.

Personaly I would vote for the death sentence to brough back!! (Not hanging), but a lethal injection.They have it in USA, and that is supposed to be free country! With modern science , there should not be errors. Any foreigner who commits a crime gets sent back to whence they came from, regardless of the "free" movements between countries in the EU

I am old enough to remember the death sentence, In the days when it meant what it said. Civilisation is not as civil as it was!!

re prison staff shortages, they do have to be the right type of person , and do have to have a probationary time before accepted. i have a member of family who is one, and really enjoys the job

PJay

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John52 - 2017-03-25 3:28 PM

 

StuartO - 2017-03-25 2:23 PM

 

  This can only happen if prisoners are allowed to associate in private, so why do we allow this to happen?

How can we stop it when prisons are so overcrowded there are are several in each cell, banged up 23 hours a day because there are no staff to supervise them :-S

 

Apparently *some" new prisons are going to be built. I say "some" because one article states two, whilst another says four so it's not worth linking.

 

We also need to look at sentencing and ask why many are being given custodial sentences for the craziest of "crimes"......debtors with no hope of paying off their fine, people lying to avoid paying speeding fines, shoplifters etc.

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PJay - 2017-03-25 5:33 PM

 

I think some prisoners have a better life in prison than outside

There should not be TV's just a bed and food, make it hard for them. Prison should be a punishment, not a holiday. ! possibly different kind of prison, depending on the crime? Violent crimes and say fraud, should not carry the same sentence fraudsters obviously have brains, so make them repay the money and work at some kind of. service.

Personaly I would vote for the death sentence to brough back!! (Not hanging), but a lethal injection.They have it in USA, and that is supposed to be free country! With modern science , there should not be errors. Any foreigner who commits a crime gets sent back to whence they came from, regardless of the "free" movements between countries in the EU

I am old enough to remember the death sentence, In the days when it meant what it said. Civilisation is not as civil as it was!!

re prison staff shortages, they do have to be the right type of person , and do have to have a probationary time before accepted. i have a member of family who is one, and really enjoys the job

PJay

It's not a place i'd particular choose for a "holiday"...telly or no telly!!!

 

Yes some US states have the death penalty for serious crime such as murder though often the sentence gets commuted to life. I watch loads of real life crime docs on CBS Reality, all US cases and can safely say the death penalty does not act as a deterrent at all. US deal with crime in a very different way to how we do here. If they've only got circumstantial evidence on a murder case, they will try prosecuting on the lesser charge of second degree. Plea bargaining is also common.

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PJay - 2017-03-25 5:33 PM

There should not be TV's

As I understand it, prisoners do not have a right to a TV. They are allowed to rent them out of their earnings as a reward for good behaviour, for as long as their good behaviour continues. How else do you incentivise them to conform?

We've tried Willy Whitelaw's 'Short Sharp Shock' Didn't work. Problem with 'Tough' prisons is prisoners come out worse than when they went in.

We need to ask why Britain is locking up a greater percentage of its population than anywhere else in Europe. We can't just lock up everyone who misbehaves because there are too many of them. We need to treat the cause of the problem, not the symptoms.

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Prison is extremely expensive and unsuccessful in reforming people We can't lock up everyone who misbehasves because there are too many of them.. We should be looking to reduce the prison population - at least down to the European average so we have some chance of reforming prisoners.

As the gap between rich and poor increases so does the crime rate. The evidence for that is overwhelming but the Governmment ignores it because it doesn't suit their ideology. So what else is there?

Well we could start with reforming the drugs laws. Unfortunately we come up against vested interests there too. This is what an ex policeman at the sharp end has to say (from comments section)

 

 

QUOTE: DerfelCadarn

26 Aug 2016 14:41

 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/aug/26/neil-woods-undercover-cop-who-abandoned-the-war-on-drugs

 

Im ex-police and can concur with the authors views entirely, but I would go a bit further. If you stopped the easy overtime, commendations and promotion on offer for scooping up low end drug subjects, you would see police attitudes to decriminalisation change very quickly.

 

Like any organisation being told to look at itself through the business model, no one will voluntarily give up a money and rank spinner.

 

On the beat in Hackney we had monthly targets to meet. Catching an over 18 with the drag ends of a spliff counted as one, catching a drunk driver pummelling his way out of the city, intervening in a domestic dispute before someone got killed or protecting vital forensic evidence of a murder by establishing a cordon and standing guard for six hours - all counted for nothing.

 

Fail to get 12 clear-ups a month and you were in trouble. If you were in trouble you couldn't apply for promotion, courses or a transfer to the teams that wear jeans (how cool will you look in the canteen with your non-issue chain handcuffs just peaking out from under your belt?)

 

The war on drugs is good for business - try to get funding for an operation looking at domestics, missing persons or fraud in the first nine months of the financial year. Then try an get funding for two teams each of a Sgt and six to aggressively patrol robbery hotspots in Jan/Feb/Mar, they throw the overtime at you. The increased police presence will deter robbery, which is good, but it will spring back the moment they clock off. They justify the money by turning over every likely drug addict for easy case clean ups.

 

Fighting the war on drugs costs tax payers £16 billion a year, the vast majority of that being law enforcement and detention. The costs of drug use to the public are a fraction of that total. Fraud however costs consumers, bank account holders, insurance policy holders, mortgage owners a conservative estimate of £250 billion a year. You don't get your money back when your card is stolen, the costs are passed onto all of us. Which would you prefer the Police chase? The social cancer that is domestic violence effects far more lives than chaotic drug users stumbling from fix to fix.

 

I agree that decriminalisation is an idea that will have its time. Switch the incentives to the greater ills, see what happens to social cohesion and violent/sexual crime when the gangs find their incomes dry up and let the hypocrisy of our arbitrary prohibitions grate on the conscience, then that time will come sooner.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/aug/26/neil-woods-undercover-cop-who-abandoned-the-war-on-drugs

 

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PJay - 2017-03-25 5:33 PM

 

I think some prisoners have a better life in prison than outside

There should not be TV's just a bed and food, make it hard for them. Prison should be a punishment, not a holiday. ! possibly different kind of prison, depending on the crime? Violent crimes and say fraud, should not carry the same sentence fraudsters obviously have brains, so make them repay the money and work at some kind of. service.

Personaly I would vote for the death sentence to brough back!! (Not hanging), but a lethal injection.They have it in USA, and that is supposed to be free country! With modern science , there should not be errors. Any foreigner who commits a crime gets sent back to whence they came from, regardless of the "free" movements between countries in the EU

I am old enough to remember the death sentence, In the days when it meant what it said. Civilisation is not as civil as it was!!

re prison staff shortages, they do have to be the right type of person , and do have to have a probationary time before accepted. i have a member of family who is one, and really enjoys the job

PJay

hi PJay,

I agree with this posting, adding two points,

1/ you say the death penalty meant what it said but now not even the sentence means what is said,

e.g. .any prisoner given 2 yrs in jail will serve nowhere near that.Prison should be a last resort but should mean what says goes 2yrs=2yrs.

2/ This individual,after due process where proof is undoubted in any way should suffer the death penalty and every penny it would cost to keep him in jail should be given to the victims. In my opinion this is a better way to spend the money.

cheers

derek

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derek pringle - 2017-03-26 9:20 AM

 

PJay - 2017-03-25 5:33 PM

 

I think some prisoners have a better life in prison than outside

There should not be TV's just a bed and food, make it hard for them. Prison should be a punishment, not a holiday. ! possibly different kind of prison, depending on the crime? Violent crimes and say fraud, should not carry the same sentence fraudsters obviously have brains, so make them repay the money and work at some kind of. service.

Personaly I would vote for the death sentence to brough back!! (Not hanging), but a lethal injection.They have it in USA, and that is supposed to be free country! With modern science , there should not be errors. Any foreigner who commits a crime gets sent back to whence they came from, regardless of the "free" movements between countries in the EU

I am old enough to remember the death sentence, In the days when it meant what it said. Civilisation is not as civil as it was!!

re prison staff shortages, they do have to be the right type of person , and do have to have a probationary time before accepted. i have a member of family who is one, and really enjoys the job

PJay

hi PJay,

I agree with this posting, adding two points,

1/ you say the death penalty meant what it said but now not even the sentence means what is said,

e.g. .any prisoner given 2 yrs in jail will serve nowhere near that.Prison should be a last resort but should mean what says goes 2yrs=2yrs.

2/ This individual,after due process where proof is undoubted in any way should suffer the death penalty and every penny it would cost to keep him in jail should be given to the victims. In my opinion this is a better way to spend the money.

cheers

derek

 

Yeah, all it needs to stop these suicide bombers is the threat of a death sentence *-)

So thats settled, who should we sort out next *-)

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