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Red Ken


antony1969

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What a disgrace of a party ... anti-Semitism is rife in the Labour Party from the top to the bottom ... Suspended for another year ... Him and Naz Shah should both have been thrown out ... You can bet if they had said something about Muslims or gays they would have been straight off
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I don't know if I was alone in struggling to understand why Ken Livingstone's comments were perceived as so appalling and anti-semitic as I couldn't find any articles in the British press that contained any response to his 'history" defence. However I have come across this article in "Jewish News Online" that explains how deeply offensive his remarks were and how his explanation was a partial truth which by its nature was misleading.

 

http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/ken-livingstone-hitler-zionism-and-the-misuse-of-history/

 

Veronica

 

 

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I read that Hitler had a Jewish girlfriend in his early days. Whether this is true or not Hitler always struck me as one of those politicians who needed an enemy to rouse the rabble against. The Jews made a convenient scapegoat and enemy for him at that time.

To a lesser extent Churchill and Thatcher needed an enemy - when they no longer had an enemy they were finished. Most recently Lord Howard, who needed an enemy ( Working Class Trade Unions) when in power, is now rabble rousing against the Spanish to defend tax havens like Gibraltar Making out Spain is our enemy despite over a million Brits choosing to live in Spain - about 40 times as many as there are tax exiles in Gibraltar. :-(

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The idea that people can be banned and/or excluded because their opinions or utterences are unsavoury probably isn't a modern one, but it's certainly gathering sway these days - seemingly especially amongst the politically correct left. It does of course deny and suppress free speech and argument.

 

All I've heard about this tepeat episode of Red Ken's antisemitic orientation is that he said something which is true - the Nazis did pass a law intended to facilitate emigration of german Jews to Palestine and quite a few did so.  At the same time the Nazis were being horrid to Jews as well, in all sorts of ways but it is nevertheless a true fact that the Nazis encouraged Zionism in this way for a while.

 

The Jewish objection to the truth of this seems to be based on it being only part of the truth, rather than evidence of pro-jewishness on the part of Hitler - but I don't see it as unreasonable for anyone to point out that emigration to Palestine was facilitated by the Nazis, since it clearly was.  Let the Jewish lobby point out the other side of the argument as they wish because of course Hilter and his Nazis were nontheless antisemitic even as they were doing this.

 

Whether Red Ken should be expelled is for the Labour Party because its their Party so their Rules and judgement, but if they want to retain any credibility for allowing freedom of speech they should perhaps be careful not to throw him out simply for telling a bit of truth or part truth.  Jeremy Corbyn uses the truth selectively all the time.

 

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StuartO - 2017-04-05 11:22 AM

 

The idea that people can be banned and/or excluded because their opinions or utterences are unsavoury probably isn't a modern one, but it's certainly gathering sway these days - seemingly especially amongst the politically correct left. It does of course deny and suppress free speech and argument..

 

Well the OP thinks it's a "disgrace" Stuart (or at least that's what he wants to portray) and he's never struck me as being particularly "politically correct" or "left" in his views...?

 

Maybe he's just giving Gina Miller a day off eh? (..a change is as good as a rest..and all that) (lol)

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pepe63 - 2017-04-05 12:36 PM Well the OP thinks it's a "disgrace" Stuart (or at least that's what he wants to portray) and he's never struck me as being particularly "politically correct" or "left" in his views...? Maybe he's just giving Gina Miller a day off eh? (..a change is as good as a rest..and all that) (lol)

 

I think there a sensitive caring socialist heart inside all of us somewhere; for some of us it just doesn't show very often!

 

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pepe63 - 2017-04-05 12:36 PM

 

StuartO - 2017-04-05 11:22 AM

 

The idea that people can be banned and/or excluded because their opinions or utterences are unsavoury probably isn't a modern one, but it's certainly gathering sway these days - seemingly especially amongst the politically correct left. It does of course deny and suppress free speech and argument..

 

Well the OP thinks it's a "disgrace" Stuart (or at least that's what he wants to portray) and he's never struck me as being particularly "politically correct" or "left" in his views...?

 

Maybe he's just giving Gina Miller a day off eh? (..a change is as good as a rest..and all that) (lol)

Perfectly summed up! ;-) (lol)

 

 

Stuart is right about "facilitating emigration of German Jews to Palestine" which was the 1933 Haavara Agreement signed by the Zionist Federation of Germany, the Anglo-Palestine Bank and the Reich Ministry of Economics.

 

That's an historical fact and easily found through the JVL http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/haavara

 

Jewish people themselves hold totally differing views over Livingstones remark as can be seen from this interview here; https://www.channel4.com/news/labour-launches-new-livingstone-probe

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I've not heard any one accuse Livingston of telling any lies - it seems he is only being accused of upsetting quite a lot of Jewish people.

 

From a Labour party point of view I can see that's not a good idea as it will lose votes.

 

 

:-|

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Guest pelmetman
malc d - 2017-04-06 8:45 AM

 

I've not heard any one accuse Livingston of telling any lies - it seems he is only being accused of upsetting quite a lot of Jewish people.

 

From a Labour party point of view I can see that's not a good idea as it will lose votes.

 

 

:-|

 

He needs to get on message *-) ........

 

The only ethnic minorities left in London that the loony left are allowed to criticise..... are White Anglo Saxons :-| ......

 

 

 

 

 

 

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pelmetman - 2017-04-06 12:01 PM

 

malc d - 2017-04-06 8:45 AM

 

I've not heard any one accuse Livingston of telling any lies - it seems he is only being accused of upsetting quite a lot of Jewish people.

 

From a Labour party point of view I can see that's not a good idea as it will lose votes.

 

 

:-|

 

He needs to get on message *-) ........

 

The only ethnic minorities left in London that the loony left are allowed to criticise..... are White Anglo Saxons :-| ......

Hhmmmm.........59.8% is one heck of a whacking big "minority" to criticise. :-S

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Bulletguy - 2017-04-06 4:46 PM

 

pelmetman - 2017-04-06 12:01 PM

 

malc d - 2017-04-06 8:45 AM

 

I've not heard any one accuse Livingston of telling any lies - it seems he is only being accused of upsetting quite a lot of Jewish people.

 

From a Labour party point of view I can see that's not a good idea as it will lose votes.

 

 

:-|

 

He needs to get on message *-) ........

 

The only ethnic minorities left in London that the loony left are allowed to criticise..... are White Anglo Saxons :-| ......

Hhmmmm.........59.8% is one heck of a whacking big "minority" to criticise. :-S

 

Thought white types had been in the minority for some years in that London ??? ... Maybe you can educate

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antony1969 - 2017-04-06 5:23 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2017-04-06 4:46 PM

 

pelmetman - 2017-04-06 12:01 PM

 

malc d - 2017-04-06 8:45 AM

 

I've not heard any one accuse Livingston of telling any lies - it seems he is only being accused of upsetting quite a lot of Jewish people.

 

From a Labour party point of view I can see that's not a good idea as it will lose votes.

 

 

:-|

 

He needs to get on message *-) ........

 

The only ethnic minorities left in London that the loony left are allowed to criticise..... are White Anglo Saxons :-| ......

Hhmmmm.........59.8% is one heck of a whacking big "minority" to criticise. :-S

 

Thought white types had been in the minority for some years in that London ??? ... Maybe you can educate.

You're reflecting bone idle British laziness again Antony. You are only one click away from ONS in the comfort of your armchair. *-)

 

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/ethnicity/articles/ethnicityandnationalidentityinenglandandwales/2012-12-11

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Bulletguy - 2017-04-06 5:54 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-04-06 5:23 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2017-04-06 4:46 PM

 

pelmetman - 2017-04-06 12:01 PM

 

malc d - 2017-04-06 8:45 AM

 

I've not heard any one accuse Livingston of telling any lies - it seems he is only being accused of upsetting quite a lot of Jewish people.

 

From a Labour party point of view I can see that's not a good idea as it will lose votes.

 

 

:-|

 

He needs to get on message *-) ........

 

The only ethnic minorities left in London that the loony left are allowed to criticise..... are White Anglo Saxons :-| ......

Hhmmmm.........59.8% is one heck of a whacking big "minority" to criticise. :-S

 

Thought white types had been in the minority for some years in that London ??? ... Maybe you can educate.

You're reflecting bone idle British laziness again Antony. You are only one click away from ONS in the comfort of your armchair. *-)

 

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/ethnicity/articles/ethnicityandnationalidentityinenglandandwales/2012-12-11

 

Wrong again ... I'm at work having some nosh before starting again !! ... Your hatred of the British runs pretty deep doesn't it ??

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Guest pelmetman
Bulletguy - 2017-04-06 4:46 PM

 

pelmetman - 2017-04-06 12:01 PM

 

malc d - 2017-04-06 8:45 AM

 

I've not heard any one accuse Livingston of telling any lies - it seems he is only being accused of upsetting quite a lot of Jewish people.

 

From a Labour party point of view I can see that's not a good idea as it will lose votes.

 

 

:-|

 

He needs to get on message *-) ........

 

The only ethnic minorities left in London that the loony left are allowed to criticise..... are White Anglo Saxons :-| ......

Hhmmmm.........59.8% is one heck of a whacking big "minority" to criticise. :-S

 

"At the 2011 census London had a population of 8,173,941. Of this number, 44.9% were White British."

 

That was in 2011 ;-) ........Are you suggesting the percentage has gone up? 8-) .........

 

 

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antony1969 - 2017-04-06 6:02 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2017-04-06 5:54 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-04-06 5:23 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2017-04-06 4:46 PM

 

pelmetman - 2017-04-06 12:01 PM

 

malc d - 2017-04-06 8:45 AM

 

I've not heard any one accuse Livingston of telling any lies - it seems he is only being accused of upsetting quite a lot of Jewish people.

 

From a Labour party point of view I can see that's not a good idea as it will lose votes.

 

 

:-|

 

He needs to get on message *-) ........

 

The only ethnic minorities left in London that the loony left are allowed to criticise..... are White Anglo Saxons :-| ......

Hhmmmm.........59.8% is one heck of a whacking big "minority" to criticise. :-S

 

Thought white types had been in the minority for some years in that London ??? ... Maybe you can educate.

You're reflecting bone idle British laziness again Antony. You are only one click away from ONS in the comfort of your armchair. *-)

 

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/ethnicity/articles/ethnicityandnationalidentityinenglandandwales/2012-12-11

 

Wrong again ... I'm at work having some nosh before starting again !! ... Your hatred of the British runs pretty deep doesn't it ??

You call warrior keyboard bashing on a forum all day every day "work"? :-S

 

Your hatred of being shown hopelessly wrong on your hyperbolic guesstimates runs pretty deep doesn't it? (lol)(lol)

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pelmetman - 2017-04-06 6:11 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2017-04-06 4:46 PM

 

pelmetman - 2017-04-06 12:01 PM

 

malc d - 2017-04-06 8:45 AM

 

I've not heard any one accuse Livingston of telling any lies - it seems he is only being accused of upsetting quite a lot of Jewish people.

 

From a Labour party point of view I can see that's not a good idea as it will lose votes.

 

 

:-|

 

He needs to get on message *-) ........

 

The only ethnic minorities left in London that the loony left are allowed to criticise..... are White Anglo Saxons :-| ......

Hhmmmm.........59.8% is one heck of a whacking big "minority" to criticise. :-S

 

"At the 2011 census London had a population of 8,173,941. Of this number, 44.9% were White British."

 

That was in 2011 ;-) ........Are you suggesting the percentage has gone up? 8-) .........

The factual statistics are all in the ONS link......if only you could be bothered to read through them instead of casually glancing at what "bits" best suit you. *-)

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Guest pelmetman
Bulletguy - 2017-04-06 6:16 PM

 

pelmetman - 2017-04-06 6:11 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2017-04-06 4:46 PM

 

pelmetman - 2017-04-06 12:01 PM

 

malc d - 2017-04-06 8:45 AM

 

I've not heard any one accuse Livingston of telling any lies - it seems he is only being accused of upsetting quite a lot of Jewish people.

 

From a Labour party point of view I can see that's not a good idea as it will lose votes.

 

 

:-|

 

He needs to get on message *-) ........

 

The only ethnic minorities left in London that the loony left are allowed to criticise..... are White Anglo Saxons :-| ......

Hhmmmm.........59.8% is one heck of a whacking big "minority" to criticise. :-S

 

"At the 2011 census London had a population of 8,173,941. Of this number, 44.9% were White British."

 

That was in 2011 ;-) ........Are you suggesting the percentage has gone up? 8-) .........

The factual statistics are all in the ONS link......if only you could be bothered to read through them instead of casually glancing at what "bits" best suit you. *-)

 

From your ONS link ;-) ..........

 

"While White British was the majority ethnic group in London, it had the lowest percentage of White British across England and Wales at 44.9 per cent."

 

Perhaps you should bother to read your links :D ......

 

 

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Back to the subject of Ken's remarks. I am not persuaded that his claim that he was merely quoting historical facts gets away from how grossly offensive his remarks were. Context is everything in my view. I have no doubt that he was trying to attack Zionism by reference to Hitler. There are many reasons to criticise modern day Zionism and Israeli policy in relation to Palestine but to juxtapose that with Hitler in his comments was cheap and nasty. Whilst we all should enjoy freedom of speech this was particularly hurtful to Jews especially to those that survived the holocaust, whether they are Zionists or not and Ken knows it. Shame on him. He has issued a rather desultory apology to anyone offended by what he said. He doesn't mean it, he doesn't get it and he should be expelled from the Labour Party. Israel's policy towards Palestine has to be judged according to what is happening today. It may be found wanting but to infer that Hitler was a supporter of Zionism as he did is a disgrace because it is taken out of context. On that issue I have come to agree with Antony (for once)

Veronica

 

 

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John52 - 2017-04-05 10:57 AMI read that Hitler had a Jewish girlfriend in his early days. Whether this is true or not Hitler always struck me as one of those politicians who needed an enemy to rouse the rabble against. The Jews made a convenient scapegoat and enemy for him at that time.To a lesser extent Churchill and Thatcher needed an enemy - when they no longer had an enemy they were finished. Most recently Lord Howard, who needed an enemy ( Working Class Trade Unions) when in power, is now rabble rousing against the Spanish to defend tax havens like Gibraltar Making out Spain is our enemy despite over a million Brits choosing to live in Spain - about 40 times as many as there are tax exiles in Gibraltar. :-(

To a lesser extent.....'a lesser extent'!!!  John there is no damn comparison....lesser or not!!!  If you genuinely think that in your ranting and raving against so much that is British then you really are one sick minded individual.

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Bulletguy - 2017-04-06 6:13 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-04-06 6:02 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2017-04-06 5:54 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-04-06 5:23 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2017-04-06 4:46 PM

 

pelmetman - 2017-04-06 12:01 PM

 

malc d - 2017-04-06 8:45 AM

 

I've not heard any one accuse Livingston of telling any lies - it seems he is only being accused of upsetting quite a lot of Jewish people.

 

From a Labour party point of view I can see that's not a good idea as it will lose votes.

 

 

:-|

 

He needs to get on message *-) ........

 

The only ethnic minorities left in London that the loony left are allowed to criticise..... are White Anglo Saxons :-| ......

Hhmmmm.........59.8% is one heck of a whacking big "minority" to criticise. :-S

 

Thought white types had been in the minority for some years in that London ??? ... Maybe you can educate.

You're reflecting bone idle British laziness again Antony. You are only one click away from ONS in the comfort of your armchair. *-)

 

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/ethnicity/articles/ethnicityandnationalidentityinenglandandwales/2012-12-11

 

Wrong again ... I'm at work having some nosh before starting again !! ... Your hatred of the British runs pretty deep doesn't it ??

You call warrior keyboard bashing on a forum all day every day "work"? :-S

 

Your hatred of being shown hopelessly wrong on your hyperbolic guesstimates runs pretty deep doesn't it? (lol)(lol)

 

I earn a lot money for keyboard bashing then fella , I think your jealous ... Your none answer regarding your Brit hatred answers my question by the way

Your post count and mine suggests that Ive posted 2 posts a day extra than you have over the 7 years we've both been on here ... So your "bashing on a forum all day every day" looks a little awkward for ya fella as well as getting your London minorities/majorities wrong

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Violet1956 - 2017-04-06 7:25 PM

 

Back to the subject of Ken's remarks. I am not persuaded that his claim that he was merely quoting historical facts gets away from how grossly offensive his remarks were. Context is everything in my view. I have no doubt that he was trying to attack Zionism by reference to Hitler. There are many reasons to criticise modern day Zionism and Israeli policy in relation to Palestine but to juxtapose that with Hitler in his comments was cheap and nasty. Whilst we all should enjoy freedom of speech this was particularly hurtful to Jews especially to those that survived the holocaust, whether they are Zionists or not and Ken knows it. Shame on him. He has issued a rather desultory apology to anyone offended by what he said. He doesn't mean it, he doesn't get it and he should be expelled from the Labour Party. Israel's policy towards Palestine has to be judged according to what is happening today. It may be found wanting but to infer that Hitler was a supporter of Zionism as he did is a disgrace because it is taken out of context. On that issue I have come to agree with Antony (for once)

Veronica

 

 

Do remember also that Ken defended what the vile Labour MP Naz Shah had said about Jews on more than one occasion ... Vile people and a vile party

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pelmetman - 2017-04-06 6:20 PM

 

From your ONS link ;-) ..........

 

"While White British was the majority ethnic group in London, it had the lowest percentage of White British across England and Wales at 44.9 per cent."

 

Perhaps you should bother to read your links :D ......

I'll make it simple for a Beano reader with a picture. *-)

 

1) scroll down until you see this http://oi64.tinypic.com/nzpnpe.jpg on the main page.

 

2) hover mouse over bar graph.

 

3) exact readings are shown for each area denoted by the relevant bar.

 

4) now tell me what it says for "white" on the London bar.

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Violet1956 - 2017-04-06 7:25 PM

 

Back to the subject of Ken's remarks. I am not persuaded that his claim that he was merely quoting historical facts gets away from how grossly offensive his remarks were. Context is everything in my view. I have no doubt that he was trying to attack Zionism by reference to Hitler. There are many reasons to criticise modern day Zionism and Israeli policy in relation to Palestine but to juxtapose that with Hitler in his comments was cheap and nasty. Whilst we all should enjoy freedom of speech this was particularly hurtful to Jews especially to those that survived the holocaust, whether they are Zionists or not and Ken knows it. Shame on him. He has issued a rather desultory apology to anyone offended by what he said. He doesn't mean it, he doesn't get it and he should be expelled from the Labour Party. Israel's policy towards Palestine has to be judged according to what is happening today. It may be found wanting but to infer that Hitler was a supporter of Zionism as he did is a disgrace because it is taken out of context. On that issue I have come to agree with Antony (for once)

Veronica

Veronica........in case you missed this it's worth listening to what this old chap had to say (starts at 3 min mark).

 

https://www.channel4.com/news/labour-launches-new-livingstone-probe

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