I've been tempted ... by a Dethleffs Fortero T5915!!!

[Mel B]

You all know how much I just LOVE my Fiat Rapido 709F motorhome (May 03), but I'm afraid that a Fortero has been 'flirting' with me quite openly and I must admit I'm seriously tempted!!! He's blue and silver, new, on the old Transit cab (floor gear lever), 2.0 125ps engine, just under 6mtrs, rear lounge with a semi-garage underneath (ie lots of storage space), with the lux pack on (alloys etc). Looking at £11,495 to change.

 

Now so that I can fend off this 'flirt' has anyone got anything to say about one of these beasts, good and bad please. I can feel my bank account quivering as I write!

 

One thing we're not certain of is what the bhp is - it says it's a 125ps, I think this is similary to bhp and equates to around 124 bhp - is this correct? It's a Ford Transit front wheel drive 125 T350.

 

Mel B

 

( I do SOOOO like being a Worm!!!)

[Derek Uzzell]

125PS equates to roughly 123.3bhp - if you GOOGLE on "bhp ps" you'll find plenty of websites offering conversion tables.

 

I believe the Dethleffs T-5915 that you are considering divorcing your Rapido for shares the same 3.30m wheelbase FWD Transit chassis and running-gear as the Hymer Van 522 tested against a Rapido 709F in MMM December 2006. OK, the Hymer's width is significantly narrower than the Dethleff and the internal layout differs, but the cab driving environment and road behaviour should be very similar.

 

I suppose it's worth mentioning that MMM's test states that the Hymer has a 2.4 litre motor - it hasn't, the motor is 2 litres capacity. Dave Hurrell comments that "the Hymer's motor is a willing, but slightly harsh-sounding unit" and the Rapido's Fiat 2.3litre motor is "more refined than the Ford". This contrasts with my own experience of Ford's 125PS 2.0litre motor (fitted to my Hobby) which (ignoring the very latest crop of engines) I rate as one of the smoothest and quietest 4-cylinder diesels found in a light commercial vehicle. There's no doubt that the 100PS Ford motor that's standard in the Hymer 522 has a reputation for being 'gruff' (as has Fiat's 2.3 for that matter), but it's improbable that Brownhills market RHD versions of the Van with the less powerful Ford power-plant. Perhaps Dave just got a rough Ford motor and a smooth Fiat one - who knows.

 

However, I agree wholeheartedly with Dave's criticism of the height of the Ford cab-seats. I'm 5' 6" tall and I find the driver's seat at its lowest setting only just low enough for comfortable and safe operation of the foot-controls. This is without a seat-swivel I should add. Before I removed my LHD Hobby's standard seat-swivel I found it impossible to operate the foot-controls properly (though this didn't stop me driving the thing back from Germany) and it was a real squeeze to slide beneath the steering-wheel (and at 9 stone in weight and with a 30" waist I'm hardly in the clinically obese category!) I've driven LHD and RHD motorhomes on this chassis (all with seat-swivels) and found the RHD ones even worse than the LHD in this respect. (By the way, although there have been many changes made to the latest Transits the seats and seat-boxes remain unaltered).

 

My LHD Hobby has the handbrake next to the door - it's a long stretch down to reach it with no seat-swivel and a helluva long stretch down if there is one. I've got a sneaking suspicion that, even with the handbrake in the door's foot-well, you'd need to lower the brake-lever to revolve the driver's seat. Anyway, make sure you are happy with the Fortero's driving position.

 

The 2.0TDCI motor cries out for a 6-speed gearbox. With the 5-speed 'box bottom-gear is high (a good deal too high in my opinion) and the engine is 'touchy' at low revs. This means that it's easy to stall the motor when moving away from rest and hill starts on a steep slope can be an interesting challenge. I've been told that clutch burn-out on FWD Transits is not uncommon and that the repair is expensive. It would be interesting to know if the 2.2 litre 130PS motor in the latest Transits has different power-delivery characteristics or gear ratios.

 

I'm fairly sure I've not seen a T-5915 though I did inspect other T-Series models before deciding to buy a Hobby. I can't say I was much impressed by the interiors of the examples I looked at and I thought the design of the 'moving wall' shower rooms was distinctly inferior to that of Hymer's Van. One of the Forteros had the oddest layout of warm-air ducts I've ever seen on any motorhome, with a nil chance of the heating system working efficiently. Hopefully they aren't all the same.

 

Personally, I think the brightly coloured Forteros look horrid, that fitting alloy wheels on motorcaravans is daft and that you'd be nuts to swap your Rapido for a T-5915. These of course are totally subjective views but, if you want to be dissuaded from parting with your money, they might help.

 

How about a Hobby Van (page 39 of December's MMM) instead? Some questionable design choices perhaps (like the cream upholstery) and the layout may not suit you, but the build quality will be better than Dethleffs' and it's decidedly more 'stylish' inside and out. You'd need to buy abroad though to get a bargain price.

 

[Guest JudgeMental]

How much is it?

 

Must be old stock if new as new ford has been available to order since September 2006.

 

Nearly went for a Fortero but finally went for a Euramobil. Not as flash looking but guaranteed winterization and better reputation for build quality. The new ford transit with 2.2 , 131 bhp engine (based on mondeo unit) is supposed to be a big improvement on old model.

 

According to German motorhome reviews, Ford 5 speed V Fiat 6 speed. Ford came out as loosing nothing and having better fuel economy as well.

 

I know for a fact Fortero model is not winterized in standard spec - it all depends what sort of camping you do. and they are heavier as well offering less payload.

 

 

Buy in haste repent at leisure :-S

 

[Brian Kirby]

Mel

Adding to Derek's comprehensive comments above, all I'd advise is to look this particular gift horse very closely in the mouth, or more accurately in the cupboards!

We have recently been looking for a replacement for our Burstner t585, and to date have crawled over almost all obvious contenders that are sub 2.3 metre width.  We have therefore looked at Dethleffs Globebus and Globevan, as well as the wider Fortieros.  Before getting the Burstner we had looked at the equivalent Dethleffs 'vans, mainly the earlier versions of the Globebus.  My abiding impression of the Dethleffs, over more than two years therefore, is that the quality overall is not as good as Burstner's.  It shows in the fit and finish of most of the internal cabinetwork and outside in the marrying of the coachbuilt onto the base vehicle cab.  As we also looked at Rapidos from time to time during this period, I can also say that their quality seems to me just that bit higher than Burstner's.  So, to me, you are contemplating two steps back down the quality ladder, and that, not surprisingly, is what is reflected even in the UK prices.  However, in UK, Dethleffs are wildly over priced for what you get.

I'd add one further comment.  Your Rapido is a compact van; the Dethleffs less so.  I think you may find what we found with our 6 metre Burstner, that the length is no great burden, but its 2.3 metre width is.  It all depends where you want to get to, but I suggest that if you really do want to change, you stick to something fairly narrow.

Our current target is the Hobby 'van, though not in the standard cream upholstery Derek mentions, and definitely not bought in UK.  How does £27,000 (approx), delivered to your door, fresh-ish from Germany, in LHD form sound?

Apart from the Hobby, do look at the other Dethleffs models as above, though I still don't rate the quality.  But look also at the Hymer/Eriba vans, and also (I think) the daddy of them all, the Knaus van, which I reluctantly ruled out for being about 2.15 metres wide.  (Not sure if this is being imported into UK by Lowdham though, but the "delivered from Germany in LHD form" as above, will get you one much cheaper than their silly prices anyhow.) 

These are all compact vans, mostly with the rear transverse bed above a "garage" style boot, either as standard or as an option.  This option seems to open up so much more internal space, although some don't like the resulting higher set bed.

I'd also add that in a recent "head to head" between the Eriba van and the Hobby van, a French mag came down very firmly in favour of the Hobby.  Now, the poor old French still seem to think that because Eribas are made in Alsace they are French - ignoring their German Hymer ownership - so according the win to the German made Hobby was clearly a matter for tears and tantrums!  Balanced it was not, but still the Hobby won!  Zut! 

However, do be aware of the gas locker siting in a number of these vans, which looks like an osteopath's ticket to instant wealth to me!  However, I'm still after a Hobby after the Burstner is sold.

[Keith T]

Hi Brian - we're looking at a possible replacement for our 5yr old Rapido 710, and the shortlist at the moment is the Burstner Marano T595, on the new Fiat. 2.3TD. Having test driven this, it handles very well, and it seems pretty manouverable despite the extra length and width over the Rapido.

However, I'm interested in your comment of looking for something under 2.3m wide, I too would prefer something narrower. Is this the width of your present van and if co have you found this very limiting in any particlar way?

Looking through the spec list in MMM, almost all the vans on the new chassis (Fiat particularly) seem to be around 2.3m, which I understand is the UK legal max for LCV, and I guess the new Fiat motorhome chassis is well capable of taking that with the extra track width.

We think from a reasonably good inspection of the Burstner that the quality is pretty much as good as Rapido, and the styling rather more 'modern' and up to date. We don't want a fixed bed, but do want a rear lounge and the choice is somewhat limited - other than UK mfg, which quite honestly, don't seem to have the same quality or style, and price-wise are more expensive when you take account of options needed, and very often even more over that magic 6m long!

[Brian Kirby]

Keith T - 2007-01-01 1:17 PM Hi Brian - we're looking at a possible replacement for our 5yr old Rapido 710, and the shortlist at the moment is the Burstner Marano T595, on the new Fiat. 2.3TD. Having test driven this, it handles very well, and it seems pretty manouverable despite the extra length and width over the Rapido. However, I'm interested in your comment of looking for something under 2.3m wide, I too would prefer something narrower. Is this the width of your present van and if co have you found this very limiting in any particlar way? Looking through the spec list in MMM, almost all the vans on the new chassis (Fiat particularly) seem to be around 2.3m, which I understand is the UK legal max for LCV, and I guess the new Fiat motorhome chassis is well capable of taking that with the extra track width. We think from a reasonably good inspection of the Burstner that the quality is pretty much as good as Rapido, and the styling rather more 'modern' and up to date. We don't want a fixed bed, but do want a rear lounge and the choice is somewhat limited - other than UK mfg, which quite honestly, don't seem to have the same quality or style, and price-wise are more expensive when you take account of options needed, and very often even more over that magic 6m long!

Keith

Short answer to your question about width, is yes, we have found it restricting.  However, it depends where you want to go.  We have used the 'van mainly in Europe, but have done a couple of trips in UK.  We tend to avoid motorways and A class roads in UK, and their European equivalents.  That is just because we prefer to get to the places those roads go to, rather than any particular objection the that class of road per se.

General comment: many UK roads of this type are quite narrow and, despite what many think, Cornwall doesn't have a monopoly on that!  This can be equally true in France, Italy, Portugal, and Germany.  We did a fair bit of Spain as well, but the roads seemed generally easier there.

The main problem is that the mirrors stick out even more than the bodywork, and Burstner mirrors have their own, even longer, arms on them, so stick out a bit more than most of the other makes.  They are thus vulnerable to all the roadside junk the Portugese leave at the edge of the road, but also to roadside trees, crash barriers, and the odd truck coming the other way!  Negotiating badly parked cars in towns can be a bit sticky too, because the bodywork swells just behind the cab, exactly where you can't see it while driving forwards through tight gaps!

This may well reflect my driving abilities, but for peace of mind I decided a narrower van was the answer. 

Last comment, as you are loking for a rear lounge, I guess that you contemplate most of your use will be in UK, where one tends to spend rather more time inside.  If this is untrue, then I'd suggest you re-consider a fixed rear bed layout, because they do work extremely well when the weather is fine and you can sit, and eat, outside.  Out t585 was absolutely spot on as regards layout, it was only the on road width that I found to be its Achilles heel.  Length at 6 metres was fine.  The fit and finish were without fault and we greatly liked its ambience.

[Mel B]

Thanks guys, useful comments there. Although we really do love our Rapido it is just that bit too tight for us to live in comfortably, we have a great lumbering cross greyhound/staffie, she looks like a smaller greyhound on steroids! She's lovely but we find that with her jumping around inside the van and all the paraphanalia that goes with her - toys, bed etc, and the fact that we are now tootling around with a large inflatable canoe (not a banana boat - a proper one!) which weighs in at around 25kg plus oars, life jackets for us and the dogs, pump etc, it's getting a bit crowded, plus lifting the canoe out from under the bed base is quite difficult - it won't fit in through the locker door. I'd also like some of the other bits which I can't have in the Rapido, such as an oven/grill and somewhere to laze about a bit more - yes we can slob out on the fixed bed but sometimes just being able to settle down on a sofa would be nice. :-S

 

The reason we are considering the Dethleffs Fortero is that it has a rear U lounge which is raised a few inches higher than the rest of the van, this means that the storage underneath it which can be accessed via the large external hatch is much larger than on a conventional U lounge design, hence we would be able to get the canoe etc in and out much easier. We then would have the advantage of being able to sprawl about on the U lounge to watch TV etc and in addition have 2 single beds or a very large double - I know I've said in the past that having a fixed bed is the bees knees and I still think they are great, however, unless we go very large length wise we can't have a better lounging area and a fixed bed, so something has to give. We don't take passengers normally so it only being a pure 2 berth doesn't matter. We don't necessarily needs lots of under bed/locker storage, but do need somewhere to put the canoe - even a separate shower will do as it can live in there most of the time as we are not ones to shower every day - this is what we did when we had a loan van once and it wasn't a problem at all.

 

I agree to a great extent with the quality issues - our Rapido is certainly standing the test of time, we've had it 3 years and 8 months now and it's still going strong, the cupboards etc are all still working as well as they did from the day we collected it, the catches etc haven't deteriorated like some cheaper vans we've seen, the worktop (what little there is!) is still like new and hasn't scratched or marked at all and neither have the cupboard doors and cabinets so the materials used are certainly very good indeed. Comparing this to the Swift we had previously which we got shot of at 18 months there is no contest - the Swift, despite being very carefully looked after, just wasn't going to last and I hate to think what it looks like now. *-)

 

Base vehicle - we did have a drive of the Fortero and neither I nor my hubby had a problem - he's got quite long legs and the seat's usually not tall enough for him, he does have to be careful of the Fiat though, he only just manages with ours and that's nothing to do with seat swivels - his knees clunk on the steering column if he's not careful. 8-)

 

We really don't want to go over 6 metres but could do with a bit more space to move around inside the van hence why we are seriously considering loosing the fixed rear bed in favour of a better lounging area. Our Rapido is 2.23m wide so an extra couple of inches wouldn't make a massic difference but obviously the narrower the better. I think we've gone off the Dethleffs now though, we talked extensively about it this morning and again an hour ago and there are too many compromises involved in our changing to it. We really don't want to spend more than £35,000 including accessories such as awning, bike rack, aerial, etc so if anyone has any suggestions I'd love to hear them, by the way, it doesn't have to be new, a year old would be okay as well, so long as it was in decent nick. :-)

 

All suggestions gratefully received!!! (lol) (lol) (lol)

[Keith T]

Mel, you'll see from my posting above that we are also looking to move from the Rapdio ()710 to something similar, and find very little to tempt us. Our 710 is of the 'older style' and at 2.11M wide the step to 2.30 is more noticeable - inside of course that's very much a plus, but the driving could be a 'minus'.....

In terms of quality I dod look at the Dethless Globus with rear lounge, but both in my opinion and some dealers, it does not meet the Burstner or Rapido. We also looked at the baby 'A''class, but that looks as though it came out of the 60s or 70s, and ot us was very unaatractive at the front externally.

The Burstner Marano 595 with rear lounge is pretty good on the whole, and apart from this, I think all Burstner are fixed bed models. I felt, though again at 6.3m it's above the preferred length for us, althougha strong contender. It's well priced, although to meet the Rapdio levels you do need to 'option' quite a few things....and that raises it to around the same as the new 'baby' Rapido 707. It's a great shame that they don't re-configure this body to have a rear lounge as I am sure it should be quite possible, but since they stopped the 710, the only rear lounge one they introduced was huge, and I don't beleive very successsful for that very reason.

Do take a look at the Marano, though - anything else we've seen has been either too big (6.5m+) or else lesss attractive and ordinary. I think both Burstner and Rapido have matched the new Fiat front exceedingly well with their low profiles.

[empress]

Oh! Mel we will miss the WORM if you change. Good luck though.

 

Empress (fellow WORM)

[Guest JudgeMental]

Mel B

 

there a thread at the moment on " motorhomefacts" forum.

 

"Problems with winterisation on a new Dethleffs Fortero"

 

Will give you some idea of what you may be letting yourself in for...

 

Please note: this is on a "winterized " version with ALDE central heating!

[Burstner620]

Mel B - 2006-12-31 10:56 PM

One thing we're not certain of is what the bhp is - it says it's a 125ps, I think this is similary to bhp and equates to around 124 bhp - is this correct? It's a Ford Transit front wheel drive 125 T350.

 

A VERY handy place for all kinds of conversions can be found at :

http://www.onlineconversion.com/

 

Says that 125 PS (pferdestarke) = 125 cheval vapeur or

123.29 horsepower [international]

[Burstner620]

Keith T - 2007-01-01 1:17 PM

Looking through the spec list in MMM, almost all the vans on the new chassis (Fiat particularly) seem to be around 2.3m, which I understand is the UK legal max for LCV . . .

 

I believe that the maximum permitted vehicle width (both for vehicles and trailers) is 2.55 metres. My Weinsberg, like many European vehicles is quotes as 2.5 metres wide.

[Burstner620]

Burstner620 - 2007-01-05 4:11 PM

 

Keith T - 2007-01-01 1:17 PM

Looking through the spec list in MMM, almost all the vans on the new chassis (Fiat particularly) seem to be around 2.3m, which I understand is the UK legal max for LCV . . .

 

I believe that the maximum permitted vehicle width (both for vehicles and trailers) is 2.55 metres. My Weinsberg, like many European vehicles is quotes as 2.5 metres wide.

 

Ooops ! Slip of finger there.

Weinsberg (and others) 2.3 (two-point-three) metres

Apologies

[Mel B]

Keith T - 2007-01-01 1:17 PM

 

Hi Brian - we're looking at a possible replacement for our 5yr old Rapido 710, and the shortlist at the moment is the Burstner Marano T595, on the new Fiat. 2.3TD.

 

Keith, if you are still seriously considering a Burstner Marano T595 then get in touch with RDH as they have a new 2006 model for sale at the moment, they've got it on ebay (item no 110084751875) but they will sell it off ebay and give you a good PX and a very good discount on the Marano as well as they need to clear stock before the 2007 models come in. We've just changed our Rapido 709 for a Rimor Sailer (see separate posting) and we have got a very, very good deal indeed, around £5,000 off!!! They've also got some other campers as well, some Chassons etc.

 

The stock list giving reductions on 2006 models on the RDH site doesn't always work when you click on it but they were still for sale when we left them on Saturday (they don't open on Sundays). Their website is:

 

www.rdh.co.uk

 

The chaps were extremely friendly, not pushy in the least, not threatening, they didn't 'blackmail' us to buy, no pressure at all, they were totally open and honest with us and we had no reason to doubt any of what they were telling us - they even offered to show us the invoice for the cost price of the motorhome we bought so we could see that they were telling us the truth when they said the were selling it for that! Very nice people and they will be good to know when habitation etc time comes around - £45.00 plus VAT!!!! Yup, that's right! This is only for vans that have been bought from them though as far as I know.

 

It has also made me very happy that I haven't gone back to a certain Newark dealership for a van as hopefully if there is any warranty work needed, which I doubt will be much if at all, it should be a much easier experience. Oh, but I will miss the swimming pool, jaccuzzi and of course the hot chocolate machine (but I can always sneak in!!!!).

:-D

[Keith T]

hi Mel - we were indeed tempted and decided on the new Marano 595, but the 2007 version, and also going from a Rapido (710F) - shall miss the firendly help from Martin and CO at Wokingham though.

Main problem - other than the increase in body size - was finding something near the quality of Rapido....

Had a good look at the Burstner, though and overall seemed pretty OK, just hope the finished product when delivered to our spec will be as good as the show models.

Liked the drive in the New Fiat, though, and that's part of the reason for changing at this time.

Inicdentally had an alternative offer from another dealer, at a rather better p/ex than I'm taking but really felt the differencial not worth taking when the distance to travel would have been around an extra 400 miles per round trip! OK I know all dealers are supposed to cover warranty work, but I rather feel the one you buy from may be more inclined to help if problems do arise.

Hope you enjoy your Rimor.

[mark lambert]

Just thought i would jump in with a thought (!) Did you know that if you buy a brand new van and you receive disability living allowance at the higher rate( for getting around) you can buy a leisure vehicle ie:motorhome/caravani without VAT, thats a huge saving (!)also, if you want all the extras which can cost a considerable amount, make sure you order the extras at the same time, as they will also come under the zero vat. i'm probably stating the obvious, and you all know this.

[Mel B]

Mark

 

Yup I knew and I suppose others do too, but there's probably still a lot that didn't know this so thanks for mentioning it.

 

Actually, today when we went to the dealership to sort out the paperwork etc they actually asked us if we were eligible for disability allowance/VAT exception. This is the first time we have ever been asked! No, we don't 'look' disabled (ie no obvious infirmity) and don't qualify but obviously we couldn've had something for which we would quality that wasn't obvious and it was good of them to ask in case they could save us money.

[Mel B]

Just thought I'd mention weights ... finally managed to deciper the Italian in the motorhome garage, it's payload is as follows:

 

450kg total for whole of vehicle

225kg maximum for garage itself

180kg maximum for garage if towing as well (not likely to happen!)

 

Haven't had time to get it fully loaded yet and weighed but not overly worried as we won't get 'heavy' until the summer hols and I seriously doubt if we'll be near the limit even then! :-S

[Brian Kirby]

Mel B - 2007-03-12 9:21 PM Just thought I'd mention weights ... finally managed to deciper the Italian in the motorhome garage, it's payload is as follows: 450kg total for whole of vehicle 225kg maximum for garage itself 180kg maximum for garage if towing as well (not likely to happen!) Haven't had time to get it fully loaded yet and weighed but not overly worried as we won't get 'heavy' until the summer hols and I seriously doubt if we'll be near the limit even then! :-S

Mel

Don't forget the rear axle limit will probably override one or both of the above.  It might be worth a weighbridge trip with the van empty except driver and front seat passenger, no water, no waste, but with the normal gas cylinders on board, so you can see where you're actually starting from.  Get the weighmaster to set the weighbridge up for a delivery: weigh the whole van as weight 1, then roll the front wheels just off the platform and take weight 2, the machine will then calculate 1 - 2, to give you the front axle weight as well.  Then, when you're fully laden go back and repeat as above and you'll have the full picture of what you've added where.

If you do need to take some off, or redistribute, having both sets of weights can be useful.