Gas Transfer Cylinder to Cylinder

[Bill Ord]

I have 10kg of butane left in a 15kg Calor cylinder that I am unable to use in my current van as the cylinder is too large. Does anybody know of a way of transferring the gas to an empty cylinder so that I can use it? I think the transfer would have to be done with the cylinder inverted so that the gas transferred as liquid but the high pressure hoses in use on today's 30mb systems should be capable if I could get an adaptor to go from the butane clip to another cylider. I had a cylinder filled in Spain in Spring 2006 on a camp site by an expat Brit who filled it from a 35kg cylinder. I didn't see the transfer take place as I delivered the empty cylinder and the full cylinder was returned to me next day so it is possible but I don't know if the adaptors are generally available.

 

Bill Ord

[Terrytraveller]

Hi Bill,

 

Have from time to time thought of this myself, but decided it might be too risky, mainly because you never know when its 80% full. Filling it more than 80% has a risk that liquid butane/propane will enter the MH/caravan gas system with explosive results.

 

If you feel the risk is worth while, use bathroom scales to identify when the target cylinder is around half full and stop at that point, then top up again when its empty or near empty.

 

Regards Terry

[RoyH]

Tell us when you're doing it Bill (transferring the gas that is) and I'll steer well clear of Banbury. Maybe safer to find a mate or neighbour with a gas barbecue who might give you a few quid for the gas.

[Dave Newell]

In theory you will only get around half of your gas out of the donor cylinder as once the pressure equalises (around halfway assuming similar sized cylinders are used) it will stop transferring. I can't honestly say its something I'd try. I'd probably find an alternative use for the old cylinder like running a domestic barby in the garden.

 

D.

[Mel B]

Bill

 

Do you know anyone that can still use the larger cylinder? If so why not 'sell' the contents (and cylinder) to them when their current one runs out, then you can just take their empty cylinder back to the calor supplier and exchange it for a full 10kg one instead.

 

I wouldn't even attempt to do what you are suggesting - is it really worth risking your life for £10.00 worth of gas???? 8-)

[mike.T]

Talking off the top of my head

I think the gas goes into the cylinder in liquid form under pressure but comes out of the cylinder as a gas So you would only ( if it’s possible to transfer it ) as a gas or you could say you would only ever get out the pressure of gas until it reached the equal pressure of the other cylinder,

If it was easy some one would have let us know by now !!

 

[Wirralian]

Not wishing to digress too much from Bill's original enquiry, can anyone tell me if there is natural evaporation of gas from an unused cylinder. I ask this because I have a full 6kg of Calor propane kept in reserve to my Glaslow cylinder. I have found it convenient to keep topping up the Gaslow cylinder that I have not needed to touch the Calor cylinder in the 12 months that I have had the Gaslow. (?)

[Clive]

Not to be recomended unless under controlled conditions as laid down at the formal re-filling point.

However

Once the pressure is equalised then gravity will cause the heavier liquid gas in the top bottle to flow into the bottom bottle while at the same time displacing an equal volume of gas from the bottom to the top bottle. It won,t be fast as the cross sectional area of the route through the two taps and the hose is small so it will bubble for quite a time. Several hours I guess.

 

Weighing the cylinders before and afterwards is necessary to ensure you don,t over fill the smaller cylinder. 1 killo of liquid gas is close to 2 litres.

 

But seriously, Is it worth the risk and all the hassle? The cost of the pipe and fittings will be more than the gas you want to transfer.

 

I wouldn't bother. Use the gas for the garage blow torch or something.

 

If you proceed, your house insurance would most likely be invalidated should it all go wrong!.

 

You have been warned!

 

C.

 

 

 

[michele]

Bill ,

 

Start the new year with a bang 8-)

[Dave Newell]

Hi wirralian, your 6Kg calor bottle shouldn't leak but the "POL" valves fitted are notorious for letting by a tiny amount. The plastic screw in plug should be fitted to the valve outlet as this is designed to stop any leaks. Yes, apparently that plastic screw in plug can hold back 100 PSI!

 

D.

[Bill Ord]

I thought this was the kind of response I'd get but I'd asked if anybody knew of a way to do it or knew of adaptors. It can be done as was demonstrated in Spain. So unless you know of how to do it or know of adaptors to use lets keep it simple.

 

Bill Ord

[Dave Newell]

Hi Bill, OK so you really are interested in doing this. I'd look at the Gaslow high pressure filling hoses and the respective couplings available from them but unless you plan on doing this repeatedly it will cost more for the kit than the gas you'll save.

 

D.

 

P.S. I still don't recomend it on safety grounds.

[Mel E]

Bill,

 

Please don't do this - here or even in Spain! If it goes wrong, everyone nearby will be evacuated from their homes for at least 24 hours while things cool down. And the NHS is already overloaded without your contribution.

 

 

[fred grant]

hi my biddies

 

mel, michelle, dave and all you others

 

why don't us have a whip round and send bill the tenner to save his life

 

i'd hate to lose somebody as good as bill from the forum

 

fred

[johnsandywhite]

B-) It CAN be done through Gravity feed:-

 

http://www.wps.com/LPG/images/c.gif

 

http://www.wps.com/LPG/images/d.gif

[Bill Ord]

Thanks for that Dave. I will do it on a regular basis if I can find the couplings/adaptors as it will be usefull when I end up with cylinders part full when I need maximum gas for a long trip as I will be able to fill or nearly fill empty cylinders. I have looked at Gaslow site but there was noithing obvious so I'll have to check them out on the phone or at a show where I can see the fittings.

 

Bill Ord

[Brian Kirby]

Bill Ord - 2007-01-05 5:11 PM Thanks for that Dave. I will do it on a regular basis if I can find the couplings/adaptors as it will be usefull when I end up with cylinders part full when I need maximum gas for a long trip as I will be able to fill or nearly fill empty cylinders. I have looked at Gaslow site but there was noithing obvious so I'll have to check them out on the phone or at a show where I can see the fittings. Bill Ord

Just another "don't do this" message for you to ignore, Bill!

From your description, it seems you will be transferring the gas to a smaller cylinder, size unspecified.  That cylinder should not be filled to more than 80% of it's nominal capacity.  If you open the valve on the receptor cylinder fully before you start, you can be reasonably sure it is empty, but since you can only approximate the quantity of liquid gas in the donor cylinder, how will you know when the receptor is 80% filled?

If you overfill, you risk supplying liquid gas to your appliances, which should keep you amused for a while!

However, should you succeed in totally filling the receptor cylinder, I strongly suspect you will risk a pressure burst if the temperature of the liquid gas should change materially.  That 20% "headspace" is there for a reason! 

Should you achieve a burst, Flixborough comes to mind!  If it's in your 'van at the time, it'll rain motorhome and Ord over half of whatever country you happen to be in ate the time.  Just don't use any Alpine tunnels in the meantime, will you!

[Dave Newell]

Wouldn't you be better off just having a Gaslow (other manufacturers equipment is available to do the same job) refillable setup installed? I'm guessing that your main concern is convenience rather than just saving a couple of bob.

 

D.

[PAW]

Hi Bill ,

 

what you are proposing is common place with LPG (propane) as buying

propane bottles and transferring the contents to an LPG vehicle works out cheaper than filling it at a garage in the UK,

this is happens a lot in spain

because the only vehicles allowed to use LPG are taxi's and government

vehicles( THIS IS WHAT IVE BEEN TOLD BY EXPATS) so the only way for us mere mortals ti use LPG is to have a huge propane tank at home (in spain) for heating of course.........

and transfer using a hand pump or an electrical pump which shuts of

when the tank that is being filled reaches 80%,

this is what the delivery tankers do and the garage LPG pumps

there are pumps for sale on EBAY search for LPG in ALL categories

hope this is what you've been looking for

 

PAW

[Clive]

Cheaper?? How??

Bulk Propane generally at the pumps in the UK including Browns road tax is still less than half the cost of Calor in bottles to suit most MH lockers.

It would be even better if we could get pump Propane without road duty for heating and cooking. LPG at Morrisons seems to be far the cheapest.

 

Technically its easy to transfer liquid Propane but the safety precautions required and attendant risks cannot be understated.

 

Its not just what you do it but also where you do it and what provisions you have in place if you forget the fag in your mouth - or somebody elses when you disconnect the pipe and the liquid gas within escapes - as it surely will.

 

OK hands up - Suez Crisis was the time we played OK!

 

 

[PAW]

hi i was not comparing the prices between calor and propane at the pumps

i was on about bottled propane and propane at the pumps

and you can get pumped propane for domestic use with out road duty

have you not seen the BIG tanks outside a lot homes who do not have mains gas? as filled by tankers ,and can be transferred into into anther tank using the correct pump,

ALL the transfer pumps are safety regulated as is the same used on garage forecourts they draw gas from a big holding tank to your vehicle

and all the times Ive filled my gas converted M/H i have HAD ANY PROBLEMS WITH ESCAPING LIQUID GAS the most Ive ever had is a hiss when releasing trigger

 

PAW

[Brian Kirby]

PAW - 2007-01-06 11:52 PM hi i was not comparing the prices between calor and propane at the pumps i was on about bottled propane and propane at the pumps and you can get pumped propane for domestic use with out road duty have you not seen the BIG tanks outside a lot homes who do not have mains gas? as filled by tankers ,and can be transferred into into anther tank using the correct pump, ALL the transfer pumps are safety regulated as is the same used on garage forecourts they draw gas from a big holding tank to your vehicle and all the times Ive filled my gas converted M/H i have HAD ANY PROBLEMS WITH ESCAPING LIQUID GAS the most Ive ever had is a hiss when releasing trigger PAW

That proves it, then!  So far, so good!

[PAW]

SORRY that should have been .......i have NOT had any problems when filling no escaping liquid gas only a hiss when releasing the trigger

 

PAW

[Bill Ord]

Thanks for the help PAW. I've now got it sorted and we can close this thread. I guess the self righteous will grieve but I'm gratefull.

Bill Ord

 

 

[Guest Frank Wilkinson]

Bill Ord - 2007-01-08 10:40 AM Thanks for the help PAW. I've now got it sorted and we can close this thread. I guess the self righteous will grieve but I'm gratefull. Bill Ord

Bill, I'm the first one to moan about the 'self righteous' hijacking a thread - see my rant under 'Speed Camera POI's' a little lower down.

Having said that however, as a newbie, if I posted a thread asking about something technical, and that procedure had inherent dangers, I think that I'd be grateful for any advice that stopped me blowing myself up, torching my 'van or electrocuting the dog.

I'm sure that in this case, people were only acting in your best interests as they were unaware at the start of the thread, about your level of expertise.