Air suspension

[ellen]

Any thoughts I.e For or against having air suspension fitted on our 2015 Fiat Ducati Mwb van conversion?

 

Any recommendations of fitters in the Staffordshire Cheshire areas?

 

 

[Brock]

Ellen, there are numerous options available for you varying significantly in price. It depends on what you want to achieve. Full air suspension, such as that used on ambulances that enables you to glide over the road is expensive, whereas semi air suspension on the rear, such as to compensate for sagging suspension is more modest.

 

Let us know what you want to achieve by fitting air suspension. It may not be the only option.

 

AS Air Suspension is in Cheshire and seems to have a good reputation. I found them willing and helpful although in the end, I bought Goldschmitt semi air on the rear [i wouldn't recommend Goldschmitt for a panel van conversion].

[Uncle Bulgaria]

I have semi-air suspension on the rear of my motorhome to help offset the rather long rear overhang. It works and improves ride comfort and reduces roll on roundabouts.

[Brock]

"[i wouldn't AS Air Suspension Goldschmitt for a panel van conversion]" doesn't make sense! I meant to say "[i wouldn't recommend Goldschmitt for a panel van conversion].

 

Edited earlier post for you (Keithl)

[Derek Uzzell]

The only UK motorhome manufacturer I’m aware of that fits ‘air bellows’ to the rear suspension of their panel-van-conversion (PVC) models is Auto-Sleepers using AL-KO’s “Air Top” system.

 

It’s referred to here

 

http://www.autosleeper-ownersforum.com/t18284-al-ko-air-springs

 

though I note that (apparently) secondary rear leaf springs are also part of the base-vehicle specification.

 

I’m not sure what benefits fitting ’semi-air’ units would provide on a 2015 Ducato mwb PVC (Overall length = 5.4m, wheelbase = 3.45m). As Brock says, it would be helpful to know what Ellen’s reasons are for considering having this modification made.

[ellen]

I know the road surfaces are pretty bad at the moment but the ride is noisy and pretty hard we wondered if it would make the ride a little better. Thanks for the replies

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

Quite simple a softer drive.Called Air Ride. But these retro- fitters should advice Ellen on this. At least take a test drive on a compatible vehicle. The goldschmitt video on a fiat ducato sunlight T68 gives you an idea what air can do and what it not can do. They are represented in the uk..

[blaven]

I fitted Dunlop air suspension bellows on the rear of our 2003 Ducato over a year ago. It's transformed the ride from crashy to bearable, but it's also stiffened the cornering so the van doesn't wallow as much.

For about £400 it's definitely worth it in my opinion. I'm only sorry I didn't do it years ago. Also if you have heavy bikes on a tow bar carrier, you can pump it up a little so you don't have problems with ferry ramps or steep driveways- extreme speed bumps etc.

[Keithl]

ellen - 2017-05-25 3:19 PM

 

I know the road surfaces are pretty bad at the moment but the ride is noisy and pretty hard we wondered if it would make the ride a little better. Thanks for the replies

 

Ellen,

 

From experience I doubt if adding Aux Air Suspension will improve a hard ride. You need to investigate why and the first thing to check should be tyre pressures!

 

What size of tyre are you running and what pressures do you set them at? And are they C or CP (Commercial or Camping)?

 

Keith.

 

[Mike88]

It makes absolutely no sense fitting air suspension of any kind on a 5.5m panel van. There is no overhang to speak of meaning the circumstances in which "air" might be useful are not applicable unless the suspension needs to be raised to avoid grounding of the exhaust or step. Air or semi air suspension will not make the ride less harsh but as mentioned above adjusting tyre pressures by trial and error is probably the best way to go.

[dicksob]

Hi Ellen, we have recently taken delivery of a 6.36m panel van conversion by IH to which we have fitted VB rear full air suspension linked to a set of EP levellers. Our rationale was based on carrying 2 heavy electric bikes on a towbar rack, and a desire to travel more on smaller island ferries with steeper boarding angles. Ours were fitted by Mick at SAP. Adjustment is by a remote control handset used from the drivers seat. Can only say ride on the road is smoother than previous van, that's after adjusting tyre pressures, if it's good enough for ambulances ......

Bill

[ellen]

Adjusted the tyre pressure several times not made any difference.

[ellen]

They are continental camping tyres 15". We have set the pressure as advised by the manufacturer then raised it then lowered it several times unfortunately nothing seems to improve hence we are trying to think of our next move. Thanks

 

 

 

 

[Keithl]

ellen - 2017-05-25 6:04 PM

 

They are continental camping tyres 15". We have set the pressure as advised by the manufacturer then raised it then lowered it several times unfortunately nothing seems to improve hence we are trying to think of our next move. Thanks

 

But what pressure ARE you running at?

 

And exactly what tyre size please?

 

Keith.

 

PS And what is the base vehicle of your MH? ie Ducato, Transit, etc...

 

PPS And what are your Max Axle weights quoted on your VIN plate please?

 

The more info we get from you the more meaningful an answer we can offer :-)

[Brock]

I had a similar problem to Ellen and took advice from this forum and three firms who fitted semi air suspension on the Alko chassis. All three firms said that I could not achieve the ride quality I wanted without fitting full air suspension on front and rear axles with costs in excess of £6,000. However, all the advice indicated I could improve matters by:

 

1. Weighing both axles and adjusting the tyre pressures to reflect those weights.

2. Determining which of the axles, or both, were causing the problem. In my case, it was both. I had a short wheelbase [3m] and noticed the front suspension was still dealing with the shock of a bump when the rear suspension hit the bump. The ride quality suffered more because the rear axle was taking the brunt - that was where my weight was greatest.

3. 'Comfort springs' on the front rather than the original Fiat springs would ease the pressure on the front axle.

4. Semi air suspension on the rear would mitigate the impact on the rear.

 

I didn't do 3 because on inspection it turned out I had Goldschmitt springs on the front [another story!] but I did have semi air fitted to the rear. It has improved the ride but has not given me the smooth ride I wanted. That would need full air suspension. I am content with my solution though which balanced cost & performance.

 

I suggest Ellen looks at the VB Air Suspension website.

 

http://www.vbairsuspension.co.uk/en/page/applications/motorhome.html

 

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

In Ellen’s original posting she said that her motorhome is a panel-van conversion (PVC) based on a medium-wheelbase 2015 Fiat Ducato. (It would probably help to know the motorhome’s make and model.) It will have Continental VancoCamper 215/70 R15CP 109R tyres.

 

As reducing tyre pressures has not made a significant improvement to the harsh noisy ride-quality at the vehicle’s rear, Ellen will need ask how much she is prepared to pay for experimenting with suspension modifications.

 

A basic ’semi-air’ kit for DIY fitting will cost between £300 and £400, with the cost rising as the kit’s specification becomes more sophisticated. Having ’semi-air’ professionally fitted would, of course, incur labour charges. Examples of pricing here:

 

http://www.conrad-anderson.co.uk/products/view/vbs1550307100fdbas/wizard:vb-semiair

 

http://www.motorcaravanning.co.uk/shopuk/dunlop_semi_air.htm

 

Major suspension changes (like dicksob chose to have made) will be expensive and, for most people, there will need to be a very very good reason to go down that route.

 

The majority of opinions expressed above suggest that installing ‘sem-air’ on a 2015 mwb Ducato-based PVC that exhibits a harsh noisy ride won’t provide a certain cure, but the only way to establish if that’s true in Ellen’s case would be to have ‘semi-air’ fitted and see what the effect is.

 

[Mike88]

I wouldn't normally contradict Derek's advice but I disagree with the suck it and see suggestion in his last post. Perhaps I am unique on here but I have had semi air on a panel van to deal with a grounding problem due to the steep slope on my driveway where the van was kept.

 

My van was 6m - I even had VB springs fitted on the front to raise the suspension by 2 ins to deal with the same problem. While this solution dealt with the grounding issue there was absolutely no difference made to the ride. In fact my tinkering made things worse. When I reduced pressure in the bellows the handling became dangerous as the rear end jumped around on corners and when I increased pressure the ride became harsh. Finding a compromise became a question of trial and error but the upshot was that the ride was not improved from the original fitted equipment.

 

I maintain that fitting semi air is a complete waste of money for dealing with a harsh ride on a panel van. Let's face it a 5.5m panel van owned by Ellen is a commercial vehicle and you will never get a car type ride. Those who have semi air on coachbuilts do reap benefits in terms of handling and quality of ride but you will not get the same results on a MWB panel van.

[Keithl]

Derek Uzzell - 2017-05-26 9:08 AM

 

As reducing tyre pressures has not made a significant improvement to the harsh noisy ride-quality at the vehicle’s rear,

 

 

BUT... Ellen still has not said what pressures she is running or how much she reduced them!

 

If, say, she is running 80 psi and only reduced them to, say, 75 psi then she will not have seen an improvement. Reducing further, depending on axle weights, MAY improve the ride.

 

Keith.

[Derek Uzzell]

Mike88

 

Your PVC was based on a Ducato lwb chassis and it’s probable that its rear suspension’s specification will have differed from that of Ellen’s 2015 mwb vehicle.

 

Your categoric opinion is that for Ellen to have ‘semi-air’ fitted to her PVC would be "a complete waste of money for dealing with a harsh ride”. What should be plain from my comments above is that I’m also sceptical that fitting ’semi-air’ to the type of motorhome Ellen has will satisfactorily address her criticisms of the vehicle’s ride-quality, but there is (in my view) a reasonable possibility that this approach MIGHT be beneficial.

 

It really comes down to whether she accepts your view based on your experience with an older different-specification PVC and decides not to have ’semi-air’ fitted - in which case (realistically), as playing about with tyre-pressures has been ineffective, she’ll have to live with the harsh noisy ride (though she will have saved several hundred pounds).

 

Alternatively she can spend several hundred pounds on having ’semi-air’ fitted to her motorhome, in the knowledge that there is a real risk that this will not improve the ride-quality (or even make it worse).

 

I don’t know how noisy/hard Ellen’s PVC’s ride is. Being miserly by nature I would have initially experimented with tyre-pressure reduction. If the ride-quality was still unacceptable after that and I thought ’semi-air’ might help I’d have fitted it myself. Although I would have born in mind your opinion, I would nevertheless have been prepared to spend the money in the hope a ride-quality improvement would take place and accept the risk that it might well not.

 

It’s Ellen’s motorhome and Ellen’s money. She has been given advice that is predominantly negative, but it’s her choice to heed that advice or ignore it.

[Mike88]

Thanks Derek for your further explanation. I hadn't taken into consideration that the suspension on a 2015 MWB vehicle might differ from my LWB X250. However, having given this possibility further thought, even if there is a difference I doubt whether it would be significantly great to have much effect. It is my belief that semi air is only beneficial in respect of vehicles with overhangs and, given the virtual absence of an overhang on a 5.5m van, I maintain that semi air will not help. Reducing air in the bellows to reduce harshness will result in jumpy and potentially dangerous handling characteristics. Indeed, if anything, softer springs on the front might be better but the cost would be higher. My VB front "Comfort" springs cost £600 fitted. Of course if Ellen wants to take the risk then so be it.

 

For what it's worth I think Keith's suggestion above (with which you agree) should be for Ellen to provide further information on her tyres and tyre pressure settings and to explain in more detail the abortive experimentation she has undertaken to reduce harshness.

[PJay]

ellen - 2017-05-25 3:19 PM

 

I know the road surfaces are pretty bad at the moment but the ride is noisy and pretty hard we wondered if it would make the ride a little better. Thanks for the replies

 

By noise, do you mean rattles?? Well most vans have rattles, mainly from cookers and and rattly plates etc. If this is the main problem, then try wrapping these items in tea clothes or kitchen roll etc.

Don't forget you are unlikely to get a smooth ride as in a car, after all you are in a van.

We even found estate cars a lot noisier than a non estate

Live with and put the radio on to deaden the noise, after a while you will not notice it.

PJay

By the way, welcome to the forum, and enjoy your van

 

[Derek Uzzell]

Acording to the Ducato Owner Handbook relating to my 2015 Rapido motorhome, a medium-wheelbase ’non-Maxi' panel-van was available with a maximum overall weight of 3000kg, 3300kg or 3500kg and the front-axle and rear-axle maximum loadings were 1630kg(F)/1650kg®, 1750kg(F)/1900kg® or 1850kg(F)/2000kg® respectively.

 

Continental’s Technical Handbook provides the following tyre-pressure data for their VancoCamper pattern in 215/70 R15CP size

 

Axle loadings of 1630kg(F)/1650kg® - 3.6bar/52psi(F) - 4.15bar/60psi®

 

Axle loadings of 1750kg(F)/1900kg® - 3.9bar/56psi(F) - 4.9bar/71psi®

 

Axle loadings of 1850kg(F)/2000kg® - 4.2kg/61psii(F) - 5.4bar/78psi®

 

If Ellen were to have her motorhome weighed in a representative loaded state (ie. with whatever people, water, gas, baggage and ‘stuff’ that is normally carried on-board) to establish its real-world axle loadings, it might be possible to safely reduce the above pressures but (as Keith has said) if high pressures were being used originally and were contributing to the harsh noisy ride, minor pressure reductions won’t make much difference.

 

Purely for experimental purposes I’d try pressures of 4.0bar/58psi(F) and 4.5bar/65psi® and see what effect those have on the ride-quality.

[ellen]

Thank you for all the replies.

Still not sure which way to go but I'm sure we will eventually get something sorted.

 

Firstly over the past years we have owned a few coach builts then downsized to a VW T5 conversion which was great but we felt we needed something with a little more room and a bathroom.

So,I'm quite aware of the problems with rattling cutlery etc I've always made sure crockery etc is wrapped to prevent that happening. Every thing that we thought would rattle as been sorted with the help of felt and rubber cupboard cushioners.

The Fiat Ducato motormhome we have recently purchased is a 2015 Rapido campereve magellan its very well built and has everything we need it's fitted with Continental 15" camper tyres.

According to the plate on the the door pillar. The pressure should be front 72.3. Rear 79.5. We lowered this in gradual stages but we are still getting a hard ride.

 

The van suits our needs perfectly we only want to run one vehicle so we wanted two,passenger seats with seat belts, easy to make bed, and something that you can park in a parking space and still stay in the white lines.

Our next move is to get the vehicle weighed.

Was hoping someone might have had a easy solution.

 

Thanks again

I will let you know what we decide.

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

Sorry Ellen there is not a simple easy solution. Tyre pressure works as an air bellow but they have to maintain the load of your axles, The best way is to go 90 percent

air ride load instead of steel suspension.

[Derek Uzzell]

ellen - 2017-05-26 3:23 PM

 

...According to the plate on the the door pillar. The pressure should be front 72.3. Rear 79.5. We lowered this in gradual stages but we are still getting a hard ride...

 

 

Ever since ‘camping-car’ tyres began to be fitted to motorhomes in the 1990s, 5.0bar/72.5psi (front axle) and 5.5bar/79.8psi (rear axle) have been specified as the pressures to use when a motorhome is Fiat Ducato-based and has 215/70 R15CP tyres.

 

It doesn’t matter how big or small, or heavy or light the motorhome is, whether it’s a PVC, a ‘coachbulilt’ or a A-class design, 5.0bar(F) and 5.5bar® will be advised on a ‘one size-fits-all’ basis.

 

My Rapido 640F (a significantly larger vehicle than your Magellan) has the same pressure-figures on its door-pillar data-plate, though it’s worth saying that those pressures are preceded by the phrase "À pleine charge” (ie, when the motorhome is fully loaded).

 

One things for sure though, if you are starting from 5.0bar(F) and 5.5bar® and reducing those pressures to gauge the effort of the reduction, you’ll need tp go well down to make the exercise worthwhile. As I suggested earlier, reduce to 4.0bar/58psi(F) and 4.5bar/65psi® and see if that improves the ride.