BruceM Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 Getting to know my recently acquired motorhome and have now turned my attention to the solar charging system. As per the photos, the charge controller is a SunSaver 10 coupled with a Fox-D1 battery display. I’ve managed to get hold of the installation manuals for both although the Sunsaver appears to have changed a little since mine was installed. Two questions. Firstly, is this equipment fairly typical for a solar charging installation and as a novice solar user are there any issues I should be aware of? Secondly, as can be seen in the photo, there is corrosion around the terminals of the SunSaver. Will cleaning these up be advantageous and if I do clean them up are there any precautions I should take before disconnecting terminals to avoid frying the electronics? Many thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 Hello, yes it is typical and looks like a poor installation. With an old style single battery regulator and the photo seems to show it is unlikely to be within the recommended 90cm of the battery/Power Charger controller?. Much has changed in the last 9 months with the latest dual battery (charging both Starter and Habitation battery simultaneously) high efficiency Solar Regulators tumbling in cost. You will probably double the power you harvest if you go for a modern quality unit that is correctly installed. We don't do Solar power, but know a little bit about battery charging, so this isn't a 'Sales Pitch', but if you read our Solar pages it might give you a good basis to look at what is less than ideal with your set-up and the options to change that? Also full of advice on maintenance, wiring, etc. See : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/solar-power.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceM Posted June 14, 2017 Author Share Posted June 14, 2017 Correct – not 90 cm from the EBL, which happens to be an Elektrobloc EBL 99 (see picture). I think I’m going to have to pull out the multi-meter and trace the solar wiring. As a first step I’d like to determine whether the solar regulator is wired into the EBL so that it can charge both habitation and solar batteries. I’m a little confused though by the van manual that states that Blocks 5 (solar cell) and 6 (solar charging unit) on the EBL which are the only connections relating to solar are all outputs. So where are the inputs (or has something been lost in translation)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceM Posted June 14, 2017 Author Share Posted June 14, 2017 . . . and an additional clarification needed . . .: I had assumed that a solar power regulator would feed into the EBL which in turn would direct charging current to the habitation or starter batteries as required much as it does with the 240v input. I’m now thinking that I’ve got this totally wrong and the solar regulator connects directly to the relevant batteries. By my way of thinking though this would mean that the EBL would not be able to monitor the battery state as it would be picking up the solar regulator charging voltage. I’d be grateful if someone would put me straight on this matter. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 If you read the link to the Solar Page and then follow that to the Schaudt Regulator LR1218 page, it explains all. But yes the Solar regulator should plug into the 3 pin Solar Port (vacant on the front of your EBL so even worse than the installation I surmised it was above). If you wired a good Solar Regulator as the manufacturer and Schaudt recommend the effect would be dramatic. Especially in typical UK conditions. Ignore the manual in relation to the wiring of the Solar Cell (Panel), that was for the very early Schaudt LR02 Solar Regulator which was superseded many years ago by much better offerings. The EBL 99 despite it being a current model has been around for 17 years, yet much in the Solar scene has moved on since then. The good news is, that it doesn't appear from the photos that anyone has cut into the wiring to install a Battery Master as a means of getting secondary charge to the Starter battery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceM Posted June 15, 2017 Author Share Posted June 15, 2017 Many thanks for the pointers to your superb articles – my solar knowledge is improving by the hour. I need one point of clarification. When on EHU My Electrobloc EBL 99 will charge both the habitation and starter batteries. Looking at the only connection plan I could locate (in this case for the Votronic MPP 165 solar regulator, see http://www.usuk.co.uk/solar/VotronicSolarRegulatorConnectionPlan.pdf ) it shows the optional connection ‘To EBL, a charging current to the living space battery’ which seems to imply that the starter battery would still be charged directly from the solar regulator and not via the EBL. Is this correct or will a single solar connection to the EBL (Block 6) charge both habitation and starter batteries? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
747 Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 BruceM - 2017-06-15 10:54 AM Many thanks for the pointers to your superb articles – my solar knowledge is improving by the hour. I need one point of clarification. When on EHU My Electrobloc EBL 99 will charge both the habitation and starter batteries. Looking at the only connection plan I could locate (in this case for the Votronic MPP 165 solar regulator, see http://www.usuk.co.uk/solar/VotronicSolarRegulatorConnectionPlan.pdf ) it shows the optional connection ‘To EBL, a charging current to the living space battery’ which seems to imply that the starter battery would still be charged directly from the solar regulator and not via the EBL. Is this correct or will a single solar connection to the EBL (Block 6) charge both habitation and starter batteries? To charge the engine battery from solar, you could fit the Schaudt LR1218 which comes with a wiring adaptor to accomplish this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceM Posted June 15, 2017 Author Share Posted June 15, 2017 Many thanks, just realised that you put the same in red in your article so that it would not be missed ( http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/lr-1218.php ) Mia culpa! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 Bruce, it is confusing because the EBL 99 works differently to most of those models that came after, like the EBL 101. On the EBL 101 the 3 pin socket has a Positive for the Habitation battery (Pin 3) , Positive for the Starter battery (Pin 2) and a common Negative (Pin 1), so a single Solar cable set can access all functions. But on an EBL 99 the centre Pin 2 doesn't really go anywhere. Therefore, to gain access to the Starter battery cable on the EBL 99, Schaudt produces a harness that goes between the 5 pin plug and socket. See photo below. You unplug the 5 pin plug from the EBL 99, insert the Solar Starter battery harness plug into the now vacant socket and then push the 5 pin plug just removed from the EBL into the socket on the end of the harness. The Red 'Spur' wire then connects onto the Solar charger 'Starter Battery' connector. As 747 states a full cable set comes with a LR1218 and the MPPT LRM 1218. If you aim to fit a Votronic, the best way to access the Starter Battery Positive is to cut into the Red cable on the 5 pin Plug using a Choc Block connector. You don't need a Solder connection, because this is an installation away from Water, inside the Motorhome. Don't fit it into the triple connector at the back of the EBL as you normally need to remove the EBL, this often results in mistakes and damaged EBL units and/or wiring. Disturb as little as you can. The Red cable is the Starter battery/Alternator supply for the Fridge and runs to the Starter battery via a Yellow 20a fuse usually located just above the Starter battery. Maybe have a read of the other Schaudt Solar thread going at the moment which also carries a lot of detail and info from people upgrading their Solar. It is titled "B2B Chargers". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceM Posted June 15, 2017 Author Share Posted June 15, 2017 That’s superb information – many thanks. I’ve been looking at the block diagram for the EBL 99 and it’s all coming together now. Have you any idea what the letter after the model name signifies? EG Electroblock EBL 99 G, Electroblock EBL 99 K etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 Allan, I'm now slightly confused as I thought that the EBL cable that came with the Votronic regulator (part 2007) connected via the 3 pin plug to my Electrobloc EBL29 solar input socket would provide solar charging to both the habitation and vehicle batteries with no further alterations necessary. I have, as advised, removed the Battery Master that was simply wired into the three battery outlet terminals at the rear of the EBL. The Votronic cable has only two wires (+ & -) which go to terminals 1 and 3 of the three pin plug to the EBL solar socket. If this is not charging my vehicle battery how do I connect the Votronic via the EBL please? Remember, very simple instructions please for someone with a limited understanding of the technology! David PS just re-read the email I got from Udo Lang at Schaudt. In this he says that "When there is a three pole connector wired with three wires to the solar charger leisure battery and starter battery output, both batteries will be charged from the solar charger." Does this mean that I need to take a red wire from the Start (+) terminal on the Votronic charger to the centre pin (2) on the cable provided so that all three pins are populated? And then the EBL will route that internally to the stater battery without the need for another fuse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 david lloyd - 2017-06-15 7:04 PM Allan, I'm now slightly confused as I thought that the EBL cable that came with the Votronic regulator (part 2007) connected via the 3 pin plug to my Electrobloc EBL29 solar input socket would provide solar charging to both the habitation and vehicle batteries with no further alterations necessary. I have, as advised, removed the Battery Master that was simply wired into the three battery outlet terminals at the rear of the EBL. The Votronic cable has only two wires (+ & -) which go to terminals 1 and 3 of the three pin plug to the EBL solar socket. If this is not charging my vehicle battery how do I connect the Votronic via the EBL please? Remember, very simple instructions please for someone with a limited understanding of the technology! David PS just re-read the email I got from Udo Lang at Schaudt. In this he says that "When there is a three pole connector wired with three wires to the solar charger leisure battery and starter battery output, both batteries will be charged from the solar charger." Does this mean that I need to take a red wire from the Start (+) terminal on the Votronic charger to the centre pin (2) on the cable provided so that all three pins are populated? And then the EBL will route that internally to the stater battery without the need for another fuse? The EBL 29 is a later model than even the EBL 101, so the centre Pin is connected internally to the Starter battery. So yes you need to run a wire from the Votronic second battery output to the EBL 29 centre pin. This is achieved by crimping an MNL 'Pin' on the end of a piece of cable and pushing it into the empty centre receptor on the plug. As you say, the other end of the cable goes to the Start (+) terminal on the Votronic charger. Sorry I didn't know the part 2007 was only a 2 wire cable, I had been told it was 3 wire. Never used it as we make our own cables. We need to update our Solar web page to reflect all this. The 3 pin MNL plugs and pins can be found on the Internet, one supplier is Semicon who in an ebay advert describe it as : MNL-350766-4 Plug 6.35mm PIN3 350766-4 Phone:01616727409 Email:info@semicom24.com The lettering on the EBL is for version identification, the K model is the current version with the latest charger and a ventilated back panel it help keep it cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 That's great, thanks Allan. Will obtain the pin and get it done probably when we get back from our week away. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceM Posted June 16, 2017 Author Share Posted June 16, 2017 Thinking back to my solar configuration, ie Sunsaver 10, do you think that there is any logical reason the Sunsaver was not wired directly into the three pin solar socket on the EBL? Is there a incompatibility issue or does it appear to be simply a case of a poorly thought through installation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceM Posted June 16, 2017 Author Share Posted June 16, 2017 Also, is there an easy way to determine which series of EBL 99 I have? There doesn't appear to be anything displayed on the front and I'd have to remove the seat to check the back of the unit. It's installed in a 2003 van. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebishbus Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 My Fox-D1 And SunSaver 10 are wired to the Leisure batteries, not the EBL99, and have worked ok for years. I have added a switched fuse and warning flashing LED connecting the starter battery which I switch off before starting the engine. Brian B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 Bruce, I have never taken apart a Sunsaver 10 so don't know it's technology, but many of the older Solar units (and some new budget devices) are literally Voltage Shunt regulators, not battery chargers, and there is a big difference in performance. I am as guilty as anyone of referring to all Solar 'chargers' as Regulators, when modern units are actually a style of Battery to Battery charger, not just a Voltage Regulator of the past. A modern Solar unit will use battery Charging technology, not just regulate a single control voltage. Typically an inefficient Solar 'Regulator' will have a single charge voltage, typically 13.8v and get quite warm. A Solar Charger will have multiple voltage ranges, often adjustable for different battery technologies. One study concluded that an old style Solar Voltage 'regulator' typically charges a Battery at upto 75% as opposed to 90% for a Solar Charger using PWM battery charging technology. MPPT technology improves on PWM by a significant factor, even charging the battery in light conditions that defeat other technologies. As can be seen the difference in performance is significant. The old Solar 'regulators' work and will charge a battery, as many will tell you, but they could be so much better. A bit like comparing two cars when one is a 2017 Audi S4 and the other an a 1936 Austin 7. The Austin 7 still gets you on holiday, but............. Solar Voltage Regulators (as opposed to more efficient chargers) can run quite hot. The installation documentation for a Steca PRS 3030 suggests it is mounted on a Concrete wall, specifically stating it should be mounted on a non flammable surface. It has a single charge voltage, not the multiple voltages universally recognised as being the optimum. Yet, like the Sunsaver, it is a common fitment in Motorhomes. Almost all good Solar charger instructions will state the cable run from the Solar charger to the Battery/Power Distribution unit should be as short as possible, often less than 60cm for optimum efficiency. You should therefore be able to look hard at your installation, especially the provision of a Solar Charging port, and answer your own question, which was - " Is there a incompatibility issue or does it appear to be simply a case of a poorly thought through installation?" The Schaudt EBL 99 was first available around 2000 with an inbuilt 16amp charger. It was updated to a 18amp charger around 2005 with the 99E/F. The identification model letter is only visible on the rear panel. So I would guess yours should be a 99D model, but obviously might have been replaced at some time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceM Posted June 17, 2017 Author Share Posted June 17, 2017 aandncaravan - 2017-06-16 8:23 PM Almost all good Solar charger instructions will state the cable run from the Solar charger to the Battery/Power Distribution unit should be as short as possible, often less than 60cm for optimum efficiency. I’ve just had a look at the Sunsaver manual and it states that it should be situated within 10ft (sic) of the batteries and at the same ambient temperature as the batteries. First criteria aside, I’m not certain that the last criteria is met as it’s mounted in a closed head height cupboard in the habitation unit whilst the batteries are in the cab. Once I have some data on the performance of this installation (as you’ll be aware I have another thread running on that) I’ll decide how best to proceed. As always with this forum, some of the best input on the planet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 I did say 'good charger'? If you have a Solar array that can output as much as 40volts, but after it gets to the regulator it drops to 13.8v then you want the biggest cable run with any associated Voltage drop at the higher voltage. Even if you lose 5volts in the cable from the Panel to the Regulator the regulator will still see 35v and have no trouble managing to still get 13.8v out. But if you get even 0.25v drop on the cable after it has regulated down to 13.8v, that will make quite a difference to the charging. Especially if the highest voltage the regulator can manage is 13.2v because the Sun is low in the sky. In Winter that can make the difference between a battery that charges and one that doesn't. It therefore makes sense to keep the Regulator to Battery/power unit cable as short as possible. The Schaudt LR1218 manual states : "at a maximum distance of 30cm to the front plate (EBL)". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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