potus4388 Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 I am thinking of towing a Nissan Note with my 2017 Elddis Accordo 135, can anyone give me advice in respect of this please? Will my motorhome manage this? The best way òf towing? trailer or A frame? I have not towed before and any advice will be welcome. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bop Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 You should stiplulate which Note you own (year, engine and spec) for the purpose of the weight/towing calculations. The current Note Range varies by circa 130kg in mass between the various production models; I.e. from circa 1010kg to 1140kg. Cheers, Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocs Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 I prefer to use a trailer rather than an A frame and, in countries like Spain, A-frames tend to be fined by police (wrongly but who wants an argument at the side of the road on legal intricacies in a foreign language?). You need to know the maximum towing weight of your motorhome which should be in a brochure and chassis plate. The maximum you should safely tow, including the weight of any trailer, is 80% of your motorhome weight but, given the weights of motorhomes, that shouldn't be an issue. So, the maximum you can tow is the lower of 80% of the motorhome's unladen weight or it's maximum towing weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potus4388 Posted July 29, 2017 Author Share Posted July 29, 2017 Thank you very much for your advice, I will check all the weights etc. as you suggest and go from there. I have heard other negative views on A frames and will look at a trailer, depends, as usual, on cost etc.I suspect it will also have a negative MPG result too. :'( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave C Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 potus4388 - 2017-07-29 3:15 PM Thank you very much for your advice, I will check all the weights etc. as you suggest and go from there. I have heard other negative views on A frames and will look at a trailer, depends, as usual, on cost etc.I suspect it will also have a negative MPG result too. :'( Don't dismiss A frames without doing your own research. Storing an A frame is so much easier than storing a trailer, whether on a site or at home and the cost is probably less than buying a (new) trailer. I very happily to a small car on an A frame and whilst I don't go abroad with my MH I don't see any disadvantage in towing my small car on an A frame. Just for the record my A frame came from Smart-Tow and has proportional braking electronically controlled and uses the cars vacuum servo to apply the brakes in conjunction with the supplied air compressor which actually provides the power to operate the pedal. Other makes of A frame are available but I suggest you do your own research. Good luck in whatever you decide upon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocs Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 I wouldn't worry too much about MPG as my experience is that there is little difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 potus4388 - 2017-07-29 3:15 PM Thank you very much for your advice, I will check all the weights etc. as you suggest and go from there. I have heard other negative views on A frames and will look at a trailer, depends, as usual, on cost etc.I suspect it will also have a negative MPG result too. :'( The only negative with A-frames is if you would intend using one abroad. The trailer storage point has been made above. A further disadvantage of a trailer is that when calculating the maximum weight you can tow, the self-weight of the trailer must also to be taken into account, and the combined weight of car plus trailer may exceed your Gross Train Weight, where the car on an A-frame would not. I don't want to take this off topic, but, just to explain the legal point regarding A-frames: it is that they fall into a legal "grey" area in UK, allowing the towed car to be regarded as a trailer - providing it carries the registration number of the towing vehicle, a lighting board wired to the towing vehicle lighting supply, and has braking suitable for a trailer exceeding 750kg in weight. A number of UK insurers are happy to cover the car under its own insurance when being towed, and for the third party risk to be carried by the towing vehicle's insurance. Some consider it preferable to insure both vehicles with the same insurer, making clear that the car will be towed on an A-frame. However, all that changes when abroad. Specifically in France and Spain (possibly also other countries, but there is a lack of clear evidence), it is only legal to flat-tow one road vehicle with another where the towing vehicle is an authorised breakdown vehicle. This is clear in law in both countries. The only exception is emergency towing to a place of safety or repair, which must be done at low speed, with hazard flashers operating, and using a rigid tow pole. So, a car towed on an A-frame by a motorhome in France or Spain will not comply, and is liable to be penalised. Some cite the Vienna Convention on International Traffic, which permits any vehicle or combination of vehicles that is legal in its country of registration, the right to use roads in all signatory countries (which includes the whole of the EU). The problem with this argument is that the combination of motorhome plus A-frame plus car is not provably legal in UK: it is merely not illegal, which computes under UK common law, but not under the legal frameworks of most European countries, where legality relies on specific authorisation under statute. The statute laws of France and Spain do not recognise A-frame towing, or make any exception for it. Just to be clear, it is not the use of the A-frame itself that is illegal, it is the act of flat-towing one vehicle with another, where the towing vehicle is not an authorised breakdown vehicle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken707 Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 I was stopped by police on the M6 last year while towing a classic car and was told that I was lucky not to have been prosecuted as the A Frame was unbraked. The car being towed was fully road legal and insured as required but apparently towing it would only have been legal had it broken down and was being recovered. Incidentally I have used A frames occasionally for many years and had found them to be a good stable method of moving cars. I suppose I never had brakes but drove with extra care accordingly There is a lot of confusion as currently there is a company manufacturing these specifically for the classic car market and when I asked, was assured they were fully legal. I understand the AA and RAC stopped using them partially for this reason although as modern cars are lower now the universal A frames were becoming more difficult to fit. I see these recovery companies now use towing "buggies" where the front of the car is secured on top........I'm sure there's a proper term for these but they are independently braked and probably simpler to manufacture. I wonder would these be legal in Europe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mildi Posted July 30, 2017 Share Posted July 30, 2017 I have towed with a trailer. First thing if you go down the trailer route is have a one to one lesson with a trailer training company before you go on your first trip. It will be worth every penny. Not sure how you can reverse with an A-frame but there were many times I have had to with the trailer. The other thing to think about is when you arrive on a site unless you have a very large pitch you will probably have to take the car off the trailer to put the trailer on the pitch, then move the car, then the motorhome. I have not been on a campsite with the car in the UK only in the rest of Europe. I was only charged for the car once which was in Italy €5 per night so we didn't stay long. As said before you have to get the nose weight correct etc. but you soon get used to this by marking the position of the wheels on the trailer with tape. I don't tow the car any more, so I sold the trailer and the little car, as the car had no alterations this was no problem and the same for when you want to change you tow car no cost to have it converted. Lots to think about but if you want any other info just PM me . Good luck, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted July 30, 2017 Share Posted July 30, 2017 ken707 - 2017-07-29 11:01 PM ...I see these recovery companies now use towing "buggies" where the front of the car is secured on top........I'm sure there's a proper term for these but they are independently braked and probably simpler to manufacture. I wonder would these be legal in Europe? I think you are referring to towing ‘dollies’. Dolly-related guidance can be found here: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/408927/a-frames-and-dollies.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave C Posted July 30, 2017 Share Posted July 30, 2017 Brian Kirby said "I don't want to take this off topic, but, just to explain the legal point regarding A-frames: it is that they fall into a legal "grey" area in UK, allowing the towed car to be regarded as a trailer - providing it carries the registration number of the towing vehicle, a lighting board wired to the towing vehicle lighting supply, and has braking suitable for a trailer exceeding 750kg in weight." If the Department for transport is happy for me to use an A Frame then I don't consider it a "grey area". ANY car towed on an A Frame MUST have the brakes working regardless of weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 30, 2017 Share Posted July 30, 2017 Fair enough Dave, but it is the Department for Transport themselves who say it is a grey area. This is because A-frame use has not been tried in court, so no judgement has ever been given, either way, and there is no specific legislation. Thus, the use of an A-frame has never been declared illegal, so is acceptable (with the proviso that the "trailer" so created complies in all respects with the trailer regulations). That is the legal situation until such time as a) a case is tried and a legal ruling made under common law, or b) specific legislation is introduced. That, is the basis of the grey area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 There’s more on A-frames and ‘dollies’ here https://www.lnbleisure.co.uk/index.php/2/ This 2015 forum thread discussed the Vienna Convention argument and the DfT’s stance on it. http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/A-frames-in-Europe-update/37428/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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