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Second hand motorhome price fixing.


Noody

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I've been studying 2nd hand prices and regardless of the condition a vehicle is in the asking price is always the same and set by dealers.

 

What am I complaining about?

 

In the case of my van it is surely an example of the ranges inherant build problems, most owners have "Got rid" rather than attend to the problem or rather various problems and the cost in keeping the vehicle in good order would be several thousand pounds.

 

If the Truma boiler hasn't been removed for a major service, and you can't remove it without expensive changes to the wardrobe, then how can you compare two vehicle ?

 

These vans are very lovely but you do have to spend money on them to keep problems under control, those that do get the same price in a second hand trade, private or dealer, as those that didn't because everyone uses the dealer advertised prices as what they are expected to pay even though some shiny looking examples need thousands spending on them and some don't.

 

It's taken me three years to get my van sorted, other than routine maintenance the repairs have come to several thousand but my van is still valued the same as vans that had no work done and are limping along.

 

I noticed that Burstner owners are very reluctant to talk about Burstner endemic problems, I've been advised to keep Shtum though I did notice at least two members (not Burstner owners) who always seem keen to talk.

 

I won't be able to sell my van because the cost of required repairs and maintenance are more than the cost of managed decline.

 

Shame.

 

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But buyers are mostly influenced by dealer prices and those same buyers mostly can't see emerging or emerged problems nor can they see problems that have been dealt with.

 

I'm talking about second hand vehicles that have had just necessary maintenance done, in many cases not even that and when things start looking expensive they "get rid".

 

The dealers pay assuming existing problems and turn the vehicle round in the hope problems won't be spotted for three months and the whole pricing structure is based on the majority of vehicles needing work. If you have a vehicle that you took care of and addressed all emerging problems that vehicle has to be worth more yet it isn't because of assumptions.

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So, a 2004 Burstner Elegance i591 (now 13 years old), but we have no idea of what problems you have experienced. Why not say what the problems have been? At least then folk would know what to look for, and others may be able to corroborate that these are Burstner specific, endemic rather than isolated, or common across all makes at this kind of age.

 

You say you have been advised to keep quiet. Are you saying you are being legally gagged, or just discouraged by other owners not wanting the value of their vans affected? In the latter case you could be seen to be contributing to the problem by remaining silent. If the former, the issue is one of illegality, and potentially serious.

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Hi, in general the price of second hand motorhomes , like cars, is guided by Glass guide, which is only available to traders

 

Dealers will expect to get a decent margin close to 30 percent so if you are selling, then look at similar models on their forecourts, and then knock off 30percent, to get an idea of what they will offer to buy in yours.

 

They will always find a problem when they examine yours for trade in, or buying in for stock.

 

When selling, they expect to make a handsome profit, and usually put off or ignore your complaints àfter purchase.

 

As inndividuals stupid enough to fall for the shiny bells and whistles, we get stung where possible

 

Yet we still pay and enjoy the pride and joy of our own van..

 

As an example, I asked for a valuation for insurance purposes, knowing the price of a similar van on the forecourt, and was offered a trade in figure 5000 less at best, or 6000 less for buying in for stock.. glass guide was 28000.

 

There is no doubt that having bought, and then eventually come to sell, you will be much poorer than you would like to be.

 

Dont worry..enjoy your outings while you have it, ..you could be 6 feet under tomorrow!

 

Optimist, pessimist, or realist.

 

Tonyg3nwl

 

 

 

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Brian Kirby - 2017-08-21 1:14 PM

 

 

You say you have been advised to keep quiet. Are you saying you are being legally gagged, or just discouraged by other owners not wanting the value of their vans affected? In the latter case you could be seen to be contributing to the problem by remaining silent. If the former, the issue is one of illegality, and potentially serious.

 

I've been sharing these problems for a few years Brian, on different forums, occasionally this one. Few owners want to talk and I had a private message suggesting i'm shooting myself in the foot.

 

Over a number of years I met three other owners who were keen to swop stories about similar aged vehicles, all had similar problems so I started searching and looking. I'm happy to go into details of my findings and the solutions but the issue right now is pricing set by dealers. So maybe another thread.

 

As a retired cabinet maker i'm well qualified for carefully stripping out the internals of a van and dealing with replacements and repairs, i'm also well qualified to criticise construction methods in what is a marine environment. My van has had a lot of work done to the tune of several thousand pounds that has to be endemic because of the construction methods I uncovered.

 

The question i'm posing is that the buying price for my van is set by dealers selling vans that still have these endemic problems, (Probably) no one is saying anything and on this forum on another thread I was advised to "Get rid"

 

So if I 'Got rid" to a dealer, the dealer would spin it around at the required profit margin assuming certain problems are present but hoping they wouldn't cause a selling problem.

 

If a similar vehicle is offered up for sale that has all these endemic problems dealt with plus all the work needed on a 13 year old vehicle to keep it in top condition all the buyers are influenced by dealer pricing which is influenced by assumptions so it isn't worth keeping your van in top condition and forking out for repairs.

 

You can't blame the purchasing individuals.

 

 

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tonyg3nwl - 2017-08-21 1:36 PM

 

Hi, in general the price of second hand motorhomes , like cars, is guided by Glass guide, which is only available to trade

 

Thank you Tony, perfect. cars are much easier, though still difficult, to judge for reasonable quality. It doesn't have furniture/superstructure/flooring/heating/plumbing and the attendant problems of standing around doing nothing.

 

Glasses guide cannot possibly judge the difference between a van that has had every problem dealt with as it emerged with a van where the owner will "Get rid" to a dealer as soon as any problems show. Mostly those owners may not even know.

 

The issue I have is that all buying and selling is controlled by dealer pricing and charging rather than the quality of the vehicle.

 

A good set of tyres is £400. In the case of my van you about £1000 to have the van altered so the Truma boiler can be removed and serviced after ten years. Come-on, cough up. Did you ?

 

The construction problems I dealt with are for another thread though I'll leave that with you people. The last owner I spoke with who had these problems didn't want to talk ending the conversation with, "I'll get rid".

 

So it goes on.

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I am on my second Burstner Tag axle van now, a combined ownership of well over 8 years. Apart from needing a bit of work done for a dampness issue between the garage floor and the rear body panel (not unusual on all makes of van), I have no complaints to make about the build quality.

 

I don't think there are any problems that can be classed as 'endemic', there are vans of all makes that could be classed as 'poorly assembled', some British vans seemingly being the worst offenders. You would need to be much more specific before you convince anyone on here that there are serious problems for Burstner owners. I could mention 2 British makes that regularly feature on forums, they still sell well and people buy secondhand ones.

 

You need to remember that people rarely start a forum thread about their 'good' van, it is normally the disgruntled owners who are vocal about it. Maybe you have got the ratio of good to bad vehicles a bit askew.

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747 - 2017-08-21 3:58 PM

 

I am on my second Burstner Tag axle van now, a combined ownership of well over 8 years. Apart from needing a bit of work done for a dampness issue between the garage floor and the rear body panel (not unusual on all makes of van), I have no complaints to make about the build quality.

.

 

This made me smile, I've been here before and on this forum Brian. Closing ranks already.

 

What year is it ?

 

 

If you didn't do the work yourself you possibly don't know how and why water got in and may not know what else is happening that is associated to the rear end ingress.

 

Had it done on warranty ?

 

 

There is an association with your work-done and some of the problems on the smaller vans though if you you haven't dealt with it yourself and why it happened you won't know the whole of what i'm talking about and the two models would have been constructed on entirely different production lines. Because of the way these vans are constructed, one problem is that the rear valence and rear panel connection is compromised by poor workmanship so water gets sucked in as the vehicle moves forward creating a vacuum at the back-end.

 

Water getting into back and sides is classic, if you paid several hundred to deal with various problems and it amounts to thousands to present a van in good order why would you have to accept the same price for vans that "got rid" just in time ? and the dealers look to the sky when you ask questions.

 

You have no complaints about the build quality ? Maybe you're thinking of selling again ? Or "Getting rid"

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Is it just me or is this thread slightly irritating? I don't have nor have ever had a Burstner, so no axe to grind.

 

The OP professes that his gripe is not about the poor build quality of his specimen, but then talks about little else. I don't like the activity of rubbishing a whole brand simply because of one's own experience. By all means, take the dealer to task but don't assume that all others are the same and there has to be some kind of cover up.

 

So, putting that to one side, the OP's (legitimate) complaint is that dealers try to get as much money as possible for their product. But what's new here? 'Twas always thus. It's up to us, the buyer, to check the vehicle thoroughly, or get someone to do it for us, and pay only what we think it's worth.

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If the van has had all this expensive work done and the price is not reflected in this what is the point in 'getting rid'

Am I missing something here or what-The OP likes his van, has had it serviced and repaired, it suits his needs (I presume) but will only get the same for it as a guy who has just run his and not bothered-so why change it? and if it is not viable to change re repair costs v trade in value once again why change it?

I can't see the point here unless it is just a bit of self pity because he has spent money on repairs and can't get a bigger trade-in allowance than Jon Doe who hasn't. We all spend money on our vehicles, enjoy the standard of the van after it's done and then lose money when we come to trade them in-this is a given-think of the VAT alone!

Is it me?

Mike

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Because of a walking problem and that my use of the van didn't seem to warrant the annual expense I decided to sell it three years ago but there were repairs that needed dealing with in order to present the van to a buyer. It took three years because I couldn't afford the mechanical work and the internal work needed time.

 

I'm not asking you to judge the way I do things, nor my misplaced integrity in dealing with repairs first, just that when I put it up for sale all,prospective buyers use dealer pricing as their benchmark rather than comparing vans.

 

I didn't want to start illustrating the actual problems I solved that I know others mostly have yet to but was encouraged to.

 

Am I misunderstood ?

 

The bloke with the tag axle examples has had two vans in eight years, he says he has no problems. Most problems I dealt with and that remain on many vans of this age appear after ten years and he one after three years or less.

 

Smile.

 

So, a 2004 Burstner Elegance i591 (now 13 years old), but we have no idea of what problems you have experienced. Why not say what the problems have been?

 

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I don't necessarily disagree with the general point being made - that prices are, generally, set by dealers but to say that this is done irrespective of the condition of a vehicle or without due regard to how well a vehicle has been maintained/repaired assumes that said dealer actually knows something about these things. It has been my experience that a great many dealers (or sales staff) would not always know how a bed was made up for use never mind how it was constructed. I have long held the view that they should and in fact believe they have a responsibility for ensuring that legal issues such as weights etc are fully explained/demonstrated to customers before a sale is completed, This rarely happens. My own, perhaps cynical, view would be that dealers set prices at whatever they feel they can get irrespective (and oblivious) to any problems the vehicke may have had/has and the old truism - buyer beware - is the best way to proceed.

 

Incidentally, I would expect this to be true for the majority of private sales too. Not too many sellers going to painstakingly go round the vehicke pointing out the flaws and failures they have known about but may well point out the extras and work like routine servicing carried out to support their asking price.

 

David

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Thank you for that David, you understand my point and I really didn't want to raise the particular issues I dealt with because I've done it before. Burster owners of similar vehicles early show up or knock me down if they do show when I raise awareness.

 

I have yet to approach a dealer, the van is advertised and without seeing it three interested buyers disregarded my work completed list, then quoted dealer prices.

 

Seems from the general response from contributors to this thread I haven't been very clever by preparing my van for sale by spending money on it yet for an extra £3000 above dealer pricing this van represents a very nice example of a cared for 2004 A Class motorhome compared to a polished-up example with the exhaust on it's last legs, corrosion on the undersides, damp invading the rear and nearside, Truma boiler due to fail and the prospect of having the wardrobe re-built.

 

ITS 13 YEARS OLD.

 

But it's been fixed, now I want to sell it but for what it is worth rather than what buyers are prepared to pay, I'm a nutter, right ?

 

 

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Noody - 2017-08-23 1:08 AM ....But it's been fixed, now I want to sell it but for what it is worth rather than what buyers are prepared to pay, I'm a nutter, right ?

I'm afraid that it does seem utterly unrealistic to expect to sell for £3,000 more than the dealer price for the same year and model, simply because you have spent money repairing it, so that it's now a servicable motorhome. 

 

The value of your motorhome is what a willing buyer will pay for it, not what it has cost you.  You might be able to get an agreed value insurance policy based on what you think it's worth but I doubt it. 

 

It may seem worth far more to you, in which case keep it and enjoy using it, but I suggest you stop kidding yourself there's a conspiracy of some sort going on here to devalue your motorhome.  If you want to sell it then it's worth what the market says it's worth and not a penny more.

 

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We live in a market led world and prices are determined by what people will pay. If a dealer can't sell a van he will reduce the price and if it sells very quickly he will probably ask more next time. C'est la vie - get used to it.

 

If I were buying an older van I would expect everything to work and knowing how gremlins seem to strike when least expected, especially on things that have been worked on, I personally would prefer an untouched original van to one where someone has spent thousands rectifying problems.

 

If I put a new gearbox in my car it does not make the car worth any more as a car needs a gearbox, full stop. In fact I would be suspicious about anything else that has been disturbed to get at the gearbox and would rather it was original. Sometimes better not to know too much history!

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I accept both your very sensible points.

 

My van is worth exactly the same as everyone else's of the same year regardless of condition. Err, how much less than your car would the same car needing a gearbox get ?

 

Same year, same price Eh ?

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Noody - 2017-08-22 12:05 PM

My van is worth exactly the same as everyone else's of the same year regardless of condition. Err, how much less than your car would the same car needing a gearbox get ?

 

The price of a gearbox in theory but probably less as fitting a new gearbox could involve some unforseen extras, like clutch, and as a buyer I would want to be on the right side in return for taking the risk.

 

Better to see it all done and pay the same price as any other similar car. A new gearbox would not increase the value of the car as a car is no use without a decent gearbox be it new, used or reconditioned.

 

So if I am selling I will just have to accept the cost of repairs as part of motoring's joys and consider myself unlucky to have been lumbered.

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Noody - 2017-08-22 6:53 AM

 

Because of a walking problem and that my use of the van didn't seem to warrant the annual expense I decided to sell it three years ago but there were repairs that needed dealing with in order to present the van to a buyer. It took three years because I couldn't afford the mechanical work and the internal work needed time.

 

I'm not asking you to judge the way I do things, nor my misplaced integrity in dealing with repairs first, just that when I put it up for sale all,prospective buyers use dealer pricing as their benchmark rather than comparing vans.

 

I didn't want to start illustrating the actual problems I solved that I know others mostly have yet to but was encouraged to.

 

Am I misunderstood ?

 

The bloke with the tag axle examples has had two vans in eight years, he says he has no problems. Most problems I dealt with and that remain on many vans of this age appear after ten years and he one after three years or less.

 

Smile.

 

So, a 2004 Burstner Elegance i591 (now 13 years old), but we have no idea of what problems you have experienced. Why not say what the problems have been?

 

To answer your comments here are the details.

 

2003 Burstner 747 owned from 2009 to 2014.

 

Current van 2006 Burstner Delphin owned from 2014 to present time.

 

The first one had the 2.8 JTD on a Fiat Ducato base vehicle, the second one is on a Renault Master with the 3 litre Nissan ZD engine fitted. I have had no mechanical problems because I have successfully avoided buying a vehicle with the post 2007 Fiat 3 litre engine.

 

I have had very few Habitation area problems but what I have had, I fixed myself, none of them were serious. As for the damp issue on the first Burstner, all vehicles will rot in that area. Take a look at at White Van Man and his rusty rear doors and bumper. It's the vortex effect of driving in rain or on wet roads.

 

Possibly the main reason I have not been in a similar situation is that I was an experienced motorhomer when I bought the first Burstner and knew what to look for and what questions to ask the Dealer. Actually, the 2003 747 had stood in a Dealers for nearly 2 years unsold and was not presented favourably (lack of valeting) but it still looked a good'un. I got a very good Part Exchange deal on my Elddis and various expensive extras (6 Michelin Agilis 16" tyres and 2 new Leisure Batteries plus a deduction in purchase price as I knew the exhaust would be rotten internally due to lack of use and fail early.

 

The bottom line for you and me when purchasing is Caveat Emptor. I hope that answers your thoughts on my reply.

 

 

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Noody, that's not what Tracker means......

 

What [i think] he's saying is that given a car needs a gearbox to actually function, if you have the misfortune to have to replace a faulty one - probably at great expense - it ain't worth any more than the same car running on the original.

A car without a gearbox isn't worth a fart! I'm afraid - and like Tracker, I would prefer a vehicle that hasn't been messed with.

 

I actually do appreciate that you may well have made your van perfect, and that there are similar models with all sorts of issues on the market - BUT, the best you can wish for is the 'going rate' - why would someone pay over 'dealer price' for a private sale?

 

Remember your valuation is based on the ASSUMPTION that all other similar models are riddled with the same faults you've encountered and rectified.

 

I'm convinced there are literally hundreds of vans out there with damp and structural issues, and across a wide range of manufacturers. Most owners are blissfully unaware, and dealers are not that conscientious to go over a used van to find every flaw, in fact my experience has been that they do bugger all if they can get away with it!

 

I'm afraid you cannot ever expect to get above the 'going rate' - invariably with a private sale punters will be expecting to pay significantly less.

 

 

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I broadly agree with all the above comments. As a cabinet maker, you can sell your product for what your customers are prepared to pay. If you ask too much, you don't sell. If you produce bad work, your reputation suffers. If you don't make what is wanted, you go broke. If you get all three right, you earn a reasonable living.

 

But, you are not a dealer, who buys at one price and sells (ne hopes!) at a higher price. The difference is that you add value to the raw materials you buy, by turning them into something useful, or beautiful, or both. The dealer doesn't.

 

He just buys what he is offered, at the price he is prepared to pay, and he sells it on with no enhancements added, just his desired mark-up. The mark-up is not all profit, because he incurs overheads in staff, buildings and land, insurances, light, heat, advertising, security, consumer liabilities, legal costs, etc. etc.

 

It would not matter whether you had rebuilt the interior of your van at immense expense in finest ebony, with gilded taps and solid silver knobs and handles (I'm assuming you haven't! :-)), it would still sell for what the next Burstner Elegance would sell for - unless it happened to catch the attention of someone with deep pockets for whom it represented motorhoming nirvana.

 

Yours is one of a number of similar commodities in a market, all being offered for sale at the same time, all in the condition that their buyers can see and understand them to be in, some with warranties to back those claims, some not. Your potential customers will only have your word for your repair skills, and if you list all the work you've done, will be inclined to see your van as an extensively repaired "lemon", that is now being offered for sale at an inflated price to try to recoup those repair costs. They will be inclined to go for the van that shows a swatch of clean water ingress test sheets, full service record, is in good condition inside and out, doesn't smell odd, and has "never given any trouble".

 

The modern dealer is the descendent of the horse dealer, and they didn't exactly enjoy a reputation for probity! If you like the van, use it. If you can no longer use it, or no longer want to use it, then sell it for what you can get. It is already late in the year for selling summer playthings, and if you wait until next spring the odds are that your van will be worth less than it is now. At least you will then sell with a clear conscience knowing that it as good as it can be.

 

I sympathise, but you won't change human nature - however much you blame the rest of us for being mere, fallible, humans. :-D

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So is a motorhome with an exhaust system hanging off, a Truma boiler needing serious attention, undersides corrosion just beating the MOT, damp going unnoticed and-etc the same value to a buyer as one that had all those problems fixed and others.

 

As long as it's got a wheel on each corner, it's ok yes ?

 

Motorhomes cannot be compared to cars though the analogy has been helpful in some ways.

 

There are a number of members of this forum who have Burster vans similar to mine, notice something ?

 

I give up, this is either collusion or apathy.

 

Brian. I only just saw your post after posting, my comments don't change but I understand what you are saying though with the amount of steel screws used in our lovely Burster vans they are all lemons unless they were kept indoors from the start.

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Noody - 2017-08-22 12:50 PM

 

So is a motorhome with an exhaust system hanging off, a Truma boiler needing serious attention, undersides corrosion just beating the MOT, damp going unnoticed and-etc the same value to a buyer as one that had all those problems fixed and others.

 

As long as it's got a wheel on each corner, it's ok yes ?

 

Motorhomes cannot be compared to cars though the analogy has been helpful in some ways.

 

There are a number of members of this forum who have Burster vans similar to mine, notice something ?

 

I give up, this is either collusion or apathy.

 

No, it's not worth the same - well at least it shouldn't be.......but sadly the prospective buyer may not notice these issues in the first instance.

 

No collusion or apathy going on, possibly some embitterment on your part.

It's just the usual lottery of buying secondhand - We've all done it on a car - well I have!

 

Brian. I only just saw your post after posting, my comments don't change but I understand what you are saying though with the amount of steel screws used in our lovely Burster vans they are all lemons unless they were kept indoors from the start.

8-) 8-)
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