Way2Go Posted January 8, 2007 Posted January 8, 2007 Hi,Our motorhome is a two berth with only two seatbelts, both in the cab (naturally). If we wanted to take the grandchildren with us (to sleep in an adjacent pup tent) would we fall fowl of the law if they were sat in the back ?I appreciate it would be best to have the little darlings belted in but wondered how we stood legally.Does anyone know what the law is?Is it something like a motorhome can only carry the number of passengers that match the number of seatbelts and they should be belted in at all times during transit?W2G
Don Madge Posted January 8, 2007 Posted January 8, 2007 Way2Go - 2007-01-08 12:00 PMHi,Our motorhome is a two berth with only two seatbelts, both in the cab (naturally). If we wanted to take the grandchildren with us (to sleep in an adjacent pup tent) would we fall fowl of the law if they were sat in the back ?I appreciate it would be best to have the little darlings belted in but wondered how we stood legally.Does anyone know what the law is?Is it something like a motorhome can only carry the number of passengers that match the number of seatbelts and they should be belted in at all times during transit?W2G Full details of the new child seat belt laws at http://tinyurl.com/ganqv then click on "Law leaflet" Safe travelling Don
Way2Go Posted January 8, 2007 Author Posted January 8, 2007 Many thanks Don, we'll check it out.Thanks
Stew Posted January 8, 2007 Posted January 8, 2007 I've got a 6 berth Autotrail, but it only has 2 seat belts for the front 2 seats. The remainder of the passengers sit in the back, which is totally legal.
flicka Posted January 8, 2007 Posted January 8, 2007 Don't know if I am breaking any rules, but here goes anyway. The official text. Extract from http://www.thinkroadsafety.gov.uk/campaigns/childc****ats/childc****ats.htm#08 Child Car Seat Use in Cars, Vans and Goods Vehicles - Your Questions Answered Update: 30 October 2006 New rules came into force on 18 September 2006 requiring children who are passengers in vehicles to use a child restraint. This table is a summary of these new rules for cars, vans and goods vehicles. Front seat Rear seat Who is responsible? Child up to 3 years old Correct child restraint MUST be used[see Q. 3]. Correct child restraint MUST be used [see Q. 8A].If a restraint is not available in a licensed taxi/private hire vehicle, the child may travel unrestrained. Driver Child from 3rd birthday up to 135cms in height (approx 4' 5") (or 12th birthday whichever they reach first) Correct child restraint MUST be used[see Q. 3]. Where seat belts are fitted, the correct child restraint MUST be used. The child must use adult belt if the correct child restraint is not available as follows:- in a licensed taxi or private hire vehicle; or- for a short distance in an unexpected necessity; or- two occupied child restraints prevent fitment of a third.A child 3 years and over may travel unrestrained in the rear seat of a vehicle if seat belts are not fitted in the rear. Driver Child over 1.35 metres (approx 4' 5") in height or 12 or 13 years old Seat belt MUST be worn if available. Seat belt MUST be worn if available. Driver Passengers aged 14 years old and over Seat belt MUST be worn if available. Seat belt MUST be worn if available. Passenger 8D. My vehicle has sideways-facing seats There has never been a legal requirement to fit seat belts in sideways-facing seats. The human body bends forward from the waist - it does not bend sideways and the potential for internal and spinal injury is high therefore if a passenger is secured with a seat belt in a sideways-facing seat. For similar reasons, the type-approval standard for child seats and boosters does not include fixing them in a sideways-facing seat. A child who is required to use child seats/boosters (ie all those under 135 cms in height who are also under 12 years of age) cannot travel in a sideways-facing seat. A child who needs to use a child seats or boosters must use a forward or rearward facing seat only. 8E. My vehicle has small extra seats only suitable for children Some estate cars and multi-purpose vehicles (MPVs) have small seats at the very rear or in the luggage compartment for use by children. Some 2 + 2 sports cars or convertibles also have small rear seats which are only big enough for children. These seats may only be used without a child seat or booster if they are labelled to the required UN ECE Regulation 44.03 (or later) type approval standard. If such a seat complies with the type-approval standard, it will have an "E" label, with "44.03" or ".03" (or later eg "44.04") and the weight range of the child for which it is designed. Check with the car handbook, or the vehicle manufacturer, whether the seat is so approved. 8F. My vehicle is a camper van with no rear seat belts ******************************************* A child under 3 years old must use the correct baby/child seat, such a child could only travel in the van if the child restraint can be used with a front seat belt. A child of 3 years and above and up to 135 cms in height must use child seats/boosters in the rear where seat belts are fitted but may travel unrestrained in a rear seat. The new rules do not require people to fit seat belts in the rear of vehicles where the seats do not have seat belts, but remember it is not safe for children to travel unrestrained. Vehicles dating from April 1982 have seat belt anchorage points if they don't have seat belts - so fitting is easy. See above about sideways facing rear seats [see Q. 8D]. Flicka
Way2Go Posted January 9, 2007 Author Posted January 9, 2007 I think we'll get a quote to have some lap belts fitted once we take delivery of our motorhome in March.We contacted our supplier who said they would be fitted as standard from November but there were adequate anchor points on current models to make the job of fitting lap belts very straight forward.Thank you all your your contributions.W2G
Brian Kirby Posted January 9, 2007 Posted January 9, 2007 Way2Go - 2007-01-09 7:11 AM I think we'll get a quote to have some lap belts fitted once we take delivery of our motorhome in March.We contacted our supplier who said they would be fitted as standard from November but there were adequate anchor points on current models to make the job of fitting lap belts very straight forward.Thank you all your your contributions.W2G Two points. Lap belts are very much a "better than nothing" solution. They do not do much for the person so restrained. What they mainly do, is prevent that person becoming a projectile within the vehicle, and so injuring those in the front seats as they fly forward. Lap belts are known to cause internal injury, which is why only lap and diagonal belts are the recommended fitting.Before having any belts fitted it would be wise to contact the 'van manufacturer, and not just rely upon the supplier. It is just possible that the seats/seat bases themselves are not suitable for belts to be fitted, even though the anchorages may be present. It is possible that the seats or bases will need modification to bring the whole seat + belt installation into line with that on the latest models. After all, if all that is actually missing is the webbing straps, why have they been omitted? They don't cost that much, so it seems unlikely they were a cost issue.A seat belt no more makes you safe than cornering on two wheels saves tyre wear?
michele Posted January 9, 2007 Posted January 9, 2007 Well Done at it again I see (lol) Thanks to you I have finally found a company Crelling Harnesses That is now sending me a Brouchure so that I can carry the little one safely. She is in a childs chair we have had loads of trouble because we cannot find a chair that firstly is big enough or has a three point Harness like a test pilot seat that we need (She is a wriggler) and manages to get out without the crotch belt.. So Thanks again Don appreciate it (lol)
michele Posted January 9, 2007 Posted January 9, 2007 Flika, I have just phoned MAVIS & read all what you have read . I asked about them going sideways as well ... Same answer . It is not illegal .. carry on basically . Now I do have a difference to other's in the respect that they are disabled so therfore I cannot just say SIT THERE .... So I bargained into the deal no Lap Belts No Sale................ I am glad to see that we are not breaking the law but more importantly the children are safe. Cheers for all the work Flika & Don
michele Posted January 9, 2007 Posted January 9, 2007 Waytogo, No phone em and tell em you won't be having it as you need them to put the Lap belts there as you forgot to mention it . They will . Don't offer more money whats Lap Belts between friends. Get on your negotiation head ;-)
michele Posted January 9, 2007 Posted January 9, 2007 Way2Go, What is your M/H and just want to tell you they fitted them in ours very quickly no prob's Good Luck
Way2Go Posted January 9, 2007 Author Posted January 9, 2007 michele - 2007-01-09 2:47 PM Way2Go, What is your M/H and just want to tell you they fitted them in ours very quickly no prob's Good Luck The new Bessacarr E560 with two side seats and a fixed bed.
michele Posted January 9, 2007 Posted January 9, 2007 Ours is the Bessie 765 with fixed bed . No probs fitting them at Brownhills. Or factoring them in the deal . Good Luck.
Mel E Posted January 9, 2007 Posted January 9, 2007 Do not put lap belts (or any other, for that matter) on sideways facing seats. In the event of a frontal crash, the internal injuries can be extremely serious. The best solution, if you have rear-facing dinette seats is to fit lap belts (and head rests) to those.
Way2Go Posted January 9, 2007 Author Posted January 9, 2007 This is our layout . . .http://www.swiftleisure.co.uk/Motorhomes/Bessacarr/E500/Properties/ModelID-46?scrollLeft=0&scrollTop=0. . . . how else would we belt passengers in??
Brian Kirby Posted January 9, 2007 Posted January 9, 2007 Way2Go - 2007-01-09 7:16 PM This is our layout . . .http://www.swiftleisure.co.uk/Motorhomes/Bessacarr/E500/Properties/ModelID-46?scrollLeft=0&scrollTop=0. . . . how else would we belt passengers in?? I am very sorry, but with this layout you cannot carry passengers in safety. Without belts, they are a risk to you and themselves in the event of a crash. With any belts (lap only or lap and diagonal) they risk serious internal, and possibly spinal, injury under the same circumstances.This is, in reality, a 2 berth, 2 travel seat layout.
Mel B Posted January 9, 2007 Posted January 9, 2007 Just one question for you Way2Go: If you had your grandchildren with you, either belted in on side-facing seats with lap belts, or totally unbelted, and you had a serious accident where one or both were injured - how would you face your daughter/son knowing that it was unsafe to transport them in this way and still did so? *-)
Way2Go Posted January 10, 2007 Author Posted January 10, 2007 O.K., O.K. we get the message. Every time we go out we'll be responsible for death and mayhem on the roads . . . . seriously, thanks for all your replies, advice and concerns.We'll consider this thread closed then?
colin Posted January 11, 2007 Posted January 11, 2007 Let me first say that what I am about to say is not meant to be 'sermonising' but just my answer to a similair problem and how I might get around your problem if I was in same situation. We have a similair problem, we sometimes have to carry one 7year old, our solution is that she sits in front seat whilst adult who can make an informed dicision sits in back behind bulkhead, if we where to have accident then hopefully gives child best chance of survival whilst adult is splated against bulkhead. If I was to regulary carry two children with van then I would fit twin front seat with belts, still with adult in back
Mel B Posted January 11, 2007 Posted January 11, 2007 Just a thought ... can you get 'child cages' like you can get 'dog cages'? (lol)
Brian Kirby Posted January 11, 2007 Posted January 11, 2007 ColinAgreed this is the least irresponsible answer (if you'll forgive the expression) but it really isn't that good. Depending on the dynamics of the accident, there can be no guarantee that the adult would be constrained by the bulkhead. They are as likely not to be, as to be, and may be projected forwards to impact violently with the back of either front seat, causing crush injuries for whichever occupant. Really, these side facing seats should never be used as travel seats.Re the twin front seat: I don't think this can be used with a belt if the cab roof has been cut away, because the upper centre belt mounting goes, I think, with the roof!None of this counts if there is no accident. The problem is that one has no control over all the circumstances, however careful one is one's self. I know I'm now sermonising, but this really is a case of "don't do this at home"! The risk itself may be small, but the potential consequences are catastrophic, so must be given the highest priority. I don't mean to imply you haven't considered them, but this is a public forum and others may possibly be less aware.
colin Posted January 11, 2007 Posted January 11, 2007 Brian, nothings 100% you just take best precations. Prior to seat belt laws very few people I know wore belts yet the majority of population servived, myself I wore seat belts after getting used to wearing them in france prior to law in this country and think they are a good idea, but that doesn't mean I will never die in a road accident. As to bulkhead failing, in our case bulkhead strengh is pretty much on par with strengh of front of van in accident, but there are many variblies.
messerschmitt owner Posted January 11, 2007 Posted January 11, 2007 Just a thought ... can you get 'child cages' like you can get 'dog cages'? if you could, I'd have one - Mel, you ain't met Evie, but imagine a miniature me crossed with janette and that's what we've got - the travel cot wasn't called a portable prison for nowt!
maggyd Posted January 11, 2007 Posted January 11, 2007 Hi W2G we would have same problem I had thought if we took a couple of out 10 grandchildren I would sit in back with one while the children took turns sitting belted in next tograndad. I wouldnt trust them to sit still in back on their own!!
carioca Posted January 12, 2007 Posted January 12, 2007 one thing to watch out for with child seats as we found to our cost a few years ago is that MH seat cushions are a lot softer than car seats are and after a while child seats sink into cushion allowing seat belts to loosen. when you turn right child & seat exit stage left :$ resulting in child strapped into seat lying on floor thankfully in our case unhurt but unhappy :-(
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