BruceM Posted September 26, 2017 Share Posted September 26, 2017 Our Truma is mostly used just for hot water during the warmer months so we turn it off at night, that way we don’t have to listen to the gentle hum of the forced air ventilation fan. This raises the issue of what we do when camping in much colder non-summer climes in continental Europe. If off EHU then gas is obviously the default. However, I was thinking that if on EHU it would be handy to have a low wattage 230v heater to maintain some warmth at night instead. I’m thinking low wattage because of the electric current restriction on many continental sites. The sort of thing I’m thinking of is something like this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Quest-Elite-Bermuda-Ceramic-Heater-Low-Wattage-/192294094983?epid=549230182&hash=item2cc59f0887:g:jWMAAOSwBp5ZqC1Y . It's about 2amps on its lower setting. I did come across a lower cost version but it lacked a thermostatic control. Any experience/thoughts? Many Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted September 26, 2017 Share Posted September 26, 2017 My only thought is the lower the wattage, the less heat it will produce. A combi 4 on gas will pump out about 4kW on start-up. All a 2A heater on a 230V supply will produce will be in the region of 460W, which may keep up with heat loss when cool outside, but won't heat the van from scratch on a cold morning. Unless you're thinking of going skiing in the Alps, or similar, when the outside temperature will remain below 0C throughout the day, the Truma shouldn't use that much gas overall. My guess is that the electric heater won't really do what you want of it when you do want to use it, so won't get that much use overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phalange Posted September 26, 2017 Share Posted September 26, 2017 we use a 500w oil filled radiator on the max setting and it keeps the van pleasant, it's not a sitting in your underpants warm, but it's ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don636 Posted September 26, 2017 Share Posted September 26, 2017 We use a 750W oil filled radiator at the front of our van and it keeps the chill off but is insufficient to heat the entire van during winter. We find it to be fine overnight and we fire up the main heating system before we rise in the morning. I have a slight concern with this heater as I have noticed that when the thermostat kicks in there is a flash of light that you can see when it is dark as it kicks in. Has anyone else noticed this on this type of heater? Not sure this is is safe in a van that also has a gas supply in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted September 26, 2017 Share Posted September 26, 2017 Don636 - 2017-09-26 8:36 PM We use a 750W oil filled radiator at the front of our van and it keeps the chill off but is insufficient to heat the entire van during winter. We find it to be fine overnight and we fire up the main heating system before we rise in the morning. I have a slight concern with this heater as I have noticed that when the thermostat kicks in there is a flash of light that you can see when it is dark as it kicks in. Has anyone else noticed this on this type of heater? Not sure this is is safe in a van that also has a gas supply in it. Pretty much what we do in winter. It seems that many heaters have thermostats that have contacts which can be visibly seen to flash, the thing is whilst on some heaters you might not see the flash it doesn't mean it's not exposed to a gas leak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted September 27, 2017 Share Posted September 27, 2017 BruceM It’s commonplace for motorcaravanners (not just UK ones) to use a mains-powered supplementary heater when an EHU is available rather than gas. I have an ancient 1000W/2000W fan-heater that I’ve used since I started motorcaravanning in 1998 and I’ve employed this for on-EHU background heating even when one of my motorhomes had a Truma C-6002EH heater capable of providing mains-powered air-heating. My heater is relativel bulky for a fan-heater, but this allows it to have a large diameter fan and (on the 1000W setting) it operates quite quietly. (The Elite Bermuda heater is very compact (and triangular!) so its fan may need to run quite fast and be noisy.) My heater has a thermostatic control that produces a ‘click’ when the heater switches off and on automatically, but I don’t find this intrusive (and my wife hasn’t complained about it!) Are you certain that the Quest Elite Bermuda has a thermostatic control? Quest’s website does not specifically say so http://www.questleisure.com/index.php/products/item/04/04.03/E0019 whereas a thermostat is mentioned with this other Quest ceramic heater http://www.questleisure.com/index.php/products/item/04/04.03/047519 The Elite Bermuda heater is advertised as having two settings - 500W or 1000W - and, consequently, would ‘draw’ around 2A or 4A on EHU. In cold weather, and leaving my heater running all night with it cutting in and out intermittently on its thermostatic setting, I’ve found that the 1000W setting manages to keep the motorhome’s interior reasonably warm, but I’m very doubtful this would be so if just a 500W output were used. Although the possibility of ultra-low amperage EHUs on Continental European campsites is often warned about, I’ve yet to encounter one that would be inadequate for running a 1000W heater. What I’m suggesting is that you might be better choosing a 1000W/2000W heater (or a 750W/1500W) than a 500W/1000W one. I recently looked at replacing my fan-heater with an electric ‘radiator’, as the latter type is silent. However, the radiator products that were widely avalable (and cheap) had very mixed reviews and, as their dimensions/weight were proportional to their heat output, it seemed that I’d need a fair size model to produce the amount of heat I anticipated needing and this would complicate storing it in the motorhome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceM Posted September 27, 2017 Author Share Posted September 27, 2017 Are you certain that the Quest Elite Bermuda has a thermostatic control? Quest’s website does not specifically say so Quite right, I’d read ‘temperature control’ and assumed thermostat. Marketing! Embarrassing for me of all people to be caught out. I’d assumed that this type of heater is purely a radiant/convection heater – ie no fan so the heat dispersal would be down to natural convection. However, I think on reflection the fact that although a fan is not mentioned it does not mean that it’s without one. If it is a fan heater I think it would defeat the point of using it – we might as well continue with the gas and the forced air extractor fan noise. A lack of a thermostat would be a concern. Our bed is a ‘drop down over cab’ so high up and potentially the warmest part of the van so if the heater emits heat regardless of the van’s temperature it might get too warm to sleep. This might be an unnecessary concern I guess, if it’s cold enough to use a heater at night then on a 500W setting it might just be enough to compensate for heat loss as commented previously. The only ‘silent’ heater then appears to be an oil filled radiator which is a shame as the ones I’ve seen tend to be heavy and quite large. My ideal I think would be something about 12” x 12”, free standing, quiet to operate and providing heat dispersal by convection/radiation. I shall keep digging. Incidentally, many thanks to all for responding. The quality of responses on this forum are consistently high quality and well thought out and there’s a real generosity in the way everyone is willing to share their knowledge even when it appears to be connected to how they make their living. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted September 27, 2017 Share Posted September 27, 2017 You could also use a convector heater which are quite light, I must admit to being slightly wary of them in a van as they might easily get covered, but here's one which has thermostat and can be set to 750w http://www.argos.co.uk/product/7254220 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don636 Posted September 27, 2017 Share Posted September 27, 2017 The oil filled radiator that we have is 700W and is still available at Dunhelm for £25. Size is 12" x 16". As I said before it is not powerful enough to keep an entire van toasty during cold weather but we use it mainly to warm the cab area which does not get enough heat from the onboard system and when we are asleep when we are happy with a lower temperature anyway with no fan noise. It is light and easily slots into a spare corner under one of the lounge seats. I think it is a good compromise between taking up valuable storage space and heat output. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted September 27, 2017 Share Posted September 27, 2017 Derek Uzzell - 2017-09-27 8:11 AM ...................................................I've yet to encounter one that would be inadequate for running a 1000W heater. What I’m suggesting is that you might be better choosing a 1000W/2000W heater (or a 750W/1500W) than a 500W/1000W one.......................... True, though we have encountered a few as low as 3A, and one at 2A! The norm is 5A (1100W) or 6A (1400W), with few allowing more than 10A (2300W). So, in general, 750W should be OK. It is always worth asking when booking in. However, it must be remembered that the EHU will draw additional current for battery charging, the fridge, and any other mains items that might be run alongside the heater (for example, an electric kettle, of which even the low wattage examples are rated at about 650W). The breakers in the feeder pillars are often old, not always user re-settable, and, I understand, prone to becoming more sensitive with age, so it is wise to maintain a bit of a safety margin. Heater running + bedtime cuppa is almost guaranteed to exceed 5A and probably 6A! The problem is the unpredictability of the fluctuating fridge and battery charger loads at any moment of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted September 27, 2017 Share Posted September 27, 2017 All of these small ‘ceramic’ heaters will have a fan and some of the Amazon/ebay adverts for the Elite Bermuda do refer to it as a “fan heater”. This link lists a number of different types of appliance, some of which will be silent and may be suitable for motorhome heating. https://www.hygienesuppliesdirect.com/sub/caravan_heaters Low wattage oil-filled radiators are widely marketed http://tinyurl.com/y7jp8zu4 The reasons I considered buying one were a) it would be silent and b) there were a couple of different-output models being sold locally at a ridiculously cheap price. However, on-line research suggested that the output of the smaller version would be less than I felt necessary and the dimensions of the higher-output version were larger than I wanted. On-line reviews, although sometimes complaining about the bleeding obvious (“Failed to satisfactorily heat my 14th-century castle”), also suggested that build-quality/reliability could be patchy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceM Posted September 27, 2017 Author Share Posted September 27, 2017 Thank you for the links – it all helps. I’m beginning to think that the fan noise I’m trying to avoid may be unnecessary – I’ll start a new thread as it’s a bit of a puzzle . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevina Posted September 27, 2017 Share Posted September 27, 2017 Radiant heater? Here is an alternative to the norm which might be better in a van. If you are going abroad bear in mind that Swiss and Austrian sites meter electricity at a rate of about 60-70p per kW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted September 27, 2017 Share Posted September 27, 2017 BruceM - 2017-09-26 5:42 PM Our Truma is mostly used just for hot water during the warmer months so we turn it off at night, that way we don’t have to listen to the gentle hum of the forced air ventilation fan. This raises the issue of what we do when camping in much colder non-summer climes in continental Europe. If off EHU then gas is obviously the default. However, I was thinking that if on EHU it would be handy to have a low wattage 230v heater to maintain some warmth at night instead. I’m thinking low wattage because of the electric current restriction on many continental sites. The sort of thing I’m thinking of is something like this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Quest-Elite-Bermuda-Ceramic-Heater-Low-Wattage-/192294094983?epid=549230182&hash=item2cc59f0887:g:jWMAAOSwBp5ZqC1Y . It's about 2amps on its lower setting. I did come across a lower cost version but it lacked a thermostatic control. Any experience/thoughts? Many Thanks We have 2 low wattage heaters ;-) ........the first was installed by my father in law and is probably 40+ years old, I recently installed a modern tube type heater in the bog........we can have both on and still boil a normal kettle without tripping the leccy ;-) .......... Unfortunately the modern tube heater is not a patch on the 40 year old heater.......but that's progress eh? :D ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted September 27, 2017 Share Posted September 27, 2017 For info this is what a 40+ year old low wattage heater looks like ;-) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagHal Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 We've used a 750W/1500W fan heater with a built in thermostat bought from B&Q for the last 3 years. It's adequate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted September 30, 2017 Share Posted September 30, 2017 Because we fix broken Motorhomes/Caravans and know the pain/cost of replacing a 'wet' heating pump or Hot Air fan, we maybe approach this slightly differently? We are almost always on EHU because we have toddlers of 6 and 7 years old and need our 'comforts'. So although we have a perfectly adequate heating system already built in, we try to keep down repair/maintenance costs by using a £15 'disposable' Argos fan Heater and leave the van heating system shutdown. Even going away over New Year we have never used the Gas system in anger. I do run it for a few hours each time we go out to keep the Gas jets clean of Spiders/debris. Access to Space/water Heaters in Motorhomes is appallingly bad. Ideally you need to be 3' 6" tall to crawl into the tiny gap, with ultra long arms, a skinny head that can squeeze into nooks and a Neck that allows you to rotate your Head to see behind you. Guys who specialise in Motorhome Space/Water systems deserve every penny as far as I am concerned The last time I replaced a Blower fan Motor on a Gas/230v heater by needing to almost stand on my Head in the bottom of the Wardrode, I vowed I wouldn't do another. A disposable £15 Argos Heater is nothing compared to a £270 heater rebuild that I know will fall to me to fix. We would advise, that where you can, you switch off the inbuilt Heater system and use a 'disposable' fan Heater. The cost of just a service on a 'wet' heating system is big. A major repair can be thousands, the more they are used the faster they wear out. Our 'disposable' (lasted 3 years so far) Argos Heater has three heat settings : 1. fast warm up, 2. 'normal' running on thermostat 3. 'overnight keep off the chill'. Having done this for a while, I concur with those above, that a large unit with a big fan is usually quieter than a small unit. So long as it has a fan to circulate the Air around the van, then even quite a low power unit is effective. But without a fan you can get Cold Pockets. We have two units, both taller than they are wide so take up less floor space. One has a safety 'power off' switch on the bottom which triggers if it falls over, the other can be sat on it's end or base to choose between either small footprint or stability. One thing I have looked for but never found is a heater with a variable speed (therefore noise) fan. I think my ideal would be 'big fanned' variable heat (including off for hot days) and variable fan speed settings in a tall unit. If placed near a window drawing in Cool Air on a hot day, they can be surprisingly effective. The 'old fashioned' centrifugal or 'drum fan' assemblies have tended to be much noisier than a device where there is literally a big bladed fan you can see. They can also have a pulsating 'thrum' to them. If you want to use a very low power 230v Heater to take off the chill while in storage, suggest you get a 'fanless' unit and switch off the battery charger or 'pull it's plug', but make the point of charging up every few weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted September 30, 2017 Share Posted September 30, 2017 aandncaravan - 2017-09-30 7:05 PM Because we fix broken Motorhomes/Caravans and know the pain/cost of replacing a 'wet' heating pump or Hot Air fan, we maybe approach this slightly differently? We are almost always on EHU because we have toddlers of 6 and 7 years old and need our 'comforts'. So although we have a perfectly adequate heating system already built in, we try to keep down repair/maintenance costs by using a £15 'disposable' Argos fan Heater and leave the van heating system shutdown. Even going away over New Year we have never used the Gas system in anger. I do run it for a few hours each time we go out to keep the Gas jets clean of Spiders/debris. Access to Space/water Heaters in Motorhomes is appallingly bad. Ideally you need to be 3' 6" tall to crawl into the tiny gap, with ultra long arms, a skinny head that can squeeze into nooks and a Neck that allows you to rotate your Head to see behind you. Guys who specialise in Motorhome Space/Water systems deserve every penny as far as I am concerned The last time I replaced a Blower fan Motor on a Gas/230v heater by needing to almost stand on my Head in the bottom of the Wardrode, I vowed I wouldn't do another. A disposable £15 Argos Heater is nothing compared to a £270 heater rebuild that I know will fall to me to fix. We would advise, that where you can, you switch off the inbuilt Heater system and use a 'disposable' fan Heater. The cost of just a service on a 'wet' heating system is big. A major repair can be thousands, the more they are used the faster they wear out. Our 'disposable' (lasted 3 years so far) Argos Heater has three heat settings : 1. fast warm up, 2. 'normal' running on thermostat 3. 'overnight keep off the chill'. Having done this for a while, I concur with those above, that a large unit with a big fan is usually quieter than a small unit. So long as it has a fan to circulate the Air around the van, then even quite a low power unit is effective. But without a fan you can get Cold Pockets. We have two units, both taller than they are wide so take up less floor space. One has a safety 'power off' switch on the bottom which triggers if it falls over, the other can be sat on it's end or base to choose between either small footprint or stability. One thing I have looked for but never found is a heater with a variable speed (therefore noise) fan. I think my ideal would be 'big fanned' variable heat (including off for hot days) and variable fan speed settings in a tall unit. If placed near a window drawing in Cool Air on a hot day, they can be surprisingly effective. The 'old fashioned' centrifugal or 'drum fan' assemblies have tended to be much noisier than a device where there is literally a big bladed fan you can see. They can also have a pulsating 'thrum' to them. If you want to use a very low power 230v Heater to take off the chill while in storage, suggest you get a 'fanless' unit and switch off the battery charger or 'pull it's plug', but make the point of charging up every few weeks. Progress eh? :D ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceM Posted September 30, 2017 Author Share Posted September 30, 2017 If you want to use a very low power 230v Heater to take off the chill while in storage, suggest you get a 'fanless' unit and switch off the battery charger or 'pull it's plug', but make the point of charging up every few weeks. Although slightly off topic the comment above raised some questions in my mind. Would it right to assume from the comment that if the battery charger mentioned above is an Elektroblock EBL then overwintering whilst continuously connected to EHU would be detrimental to the batteries? My home EHU is on a variable timer and my overwintering plan has been to leave the EBL turned on, put in place a small heater (possibly fan driven) and have the EHU power up for one hour each day both to help keep the van dry and to maintain the batteries (I’m assuming negligible solar). From an electrical perspective, a good or bad idea do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 Unless you have a battery charger that has a special 'Long term Float' setting, most batteries will be degraded by a modern multi stage charger, as 13.8v 'trickle' charge is OK for a few weeks, but not months. Yuasa now state on their website : "Continuous charging, even from a well-controlled charging system, will result in internal degradation of the battery". Victron Energy state it is o.k. IF the charger is one of the new breed of 13.2v/13.4v 'Float'/'trickle'/maintenance charger units designed for long term use. Victron advise against using a Mains charger or Solar charger with a 'trickle' voltage higher than 13.5v. In leaving the charger on, you are also running the charger unnecessarily, they don't have an unlimited life. Some like the Nordelettronica NE 143 chargers or the Reich chargers have seriously shortened life if left on EHU long term. Using a daily timer can be worse than leaving it on permanently because many chargers 'start-up' in 'Full charge' mode for a set time. The Schaudt Elektroblock EBL 99 in your vehicle will start-up in a full power charge mode that will run for 4 hours if left to it's own devices. Clearly not beneficial for a fully charged battery and a waste of charger lifetime. Some Solar regulators do the same, 'power charging' the battery for a set time every day when they 'wake up' with the Sun rise. Only when the timer expires, about 4 hours in some cases, will the Solar regulator settle down to a 'trickle' charge, which is usually a 'too high' 13.8v. I think you have one of the new 2017 generation of Motorhome specific Solar chargers from Votronic which does have a safe 'trickle' charge rate of 13.4v? However, the EBL 99 isn't designed as a battery maintainer, but a powerful, 'fast charge' battery charger. We think AGM batteries are particularly intolerant of long term Float charging from either Solar or Mains EHU, so more important in their case, especially so considering the £360 price tag for a pair of them? I know people have left 'Old Skool' mains chargers on for many years, but they were more likely low power 13.5v units. Modern batteries are different, Multi stage Chargers more common and Solar changes it a step up again. Be cautious about advice like, "left mine on long term EHU for years, never harmed mine.......". Unless of course they are willing to underwrite the advice by paying for new batteries? All covered in more detail here with additional supporting evidence : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/ehu-full-time-yes-or-no.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceM Posted October 2, 2017 Author Share Posted October 2, 2017 Since the solar upgrade, this is now my scenario, I have a solar panel wired to a new Voltronic 250 Duo wired to an EBL 90 (block 7 Auxiliary Charger Port for the leisure batteries) and then on to two Varta LFD90 batteries and the starter battery. The rational advice is turn off the EBL if staying connected to EHU whilst overwintering (eg if running a 230V heater to keep the van dry). Question, if the EBL is turned off will this disconnect the Votronic Auxiliary Charger Port input from the leisure batteries and consequently deny them any solar trickle charge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 BruceM - 2017-10-02 1:31 PM Since the solar upgrade, this is now my scenario, I have a solar panel wired to a new Voltronic 250 Duo wired to an EBL 90 (block 7 Auxiliary Charger Port for the leisure batteries) and then on to two Varta LFD90 batteries and the starter battery. The rational advice is turn off the EBL if staying connected to EHU whilst overwintering (eg if running a 230V heater to keep the van dry). Question, if the EBL is turned off will this disconnect the Votronic Auxiliary Charger Port input from the leisure batteries and consequently deny them any solar trickle charge? It depends on your terminology as 'turning off' the EBL will not impact any charging systems, they will work whether the EBL 99 is 'Turned on/off' using either the control/display panel or the EBL 99 front switch. However, if you remove the mains supply to the charger inside the EBL 99, like removing the kettle lead at the front top left corner (regardless of whether the EBL 99 is on or off) then the mains charger will obviously not have the power to function. Note that removing the 230v power to the EBL will not affect any 12v function except mains charging, the EBL will not shut down or change in anyway just because it loses 230v mains.. Regardless of the 230v status or the EBL 99 being powered On or Off, the Solar (and in your case aux ) are still connected to and will charge the batteries. Sorry if that is pedantic, but many people think if you 'turn off' the EBL 99 by the control/display, everything stops. Even the manual has an issue with 'translation' because it says if you 'turn off' the EBL at the front switch (which we advise you never touch as they have a habit of not starting back up) it will isolate the EBL 99 from the vehicle when it does not. All the EBL 99 front switch does, is isolate a few more circuits, like step and Frost protection valve, the EBL is still connected, charging will still take place from all sources : Solar, Mains or Alternator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceM Posted October 3, 2017 Author Share Posted October 3, 2017 Thanks Alan. In this case pedantic is good. No doubt like others, I’d assumed that turning off the EBL totally powered it down and isolated all its inputs. An interesting lesson learned. Hopefully others will pick up on this. So I’ll modify my plan by pulling the EBL’s 230V plug input during any winter lay up to accommodate my fan heater plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 Easy answer. Buy a thicker duvet and turn heating on just before you get up in the morning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyishuk Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 Dimplex cupboard heater works for us. 500 watt, no noise from a fan, thermostatic, very light, and safety switch if it gets knocked over. Rgds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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