Hymer Exsis i588 total (electrical) power loss

[RFC7]

Background: My Hymer was purchased new in Germany in May 2015, it was registered in the UK on January 1st, 2016, I became the second owner in April this year at which time the mileage was 21,000miles.

I have carried out many improvements since owning the Hymer, one of which was to add a second Leisure battery and link it in series, the second battery is an exact replica of the 90amp original, however, the new battery is 95amp. ( Nb: I have since read this variation in the amperage and the 2 year age difference between the two batteries could be contributing to my problem?)

 

After long runs when the alternator has been charging both the main engine and Leisure batteries, the onboard battery monitor (above the RHS entrance door) always shows identical full readings of 13.5 volts. If I then plug in the external mains supply lead, the monitor immediately shows a much lower reading from the leisure batteries, when I disconnect the mains feed both battery readings again match and show a full charge !! This in itself is very confusing!

 

Today I visited my Motorhome for the first time in a couple of weeks during which time the mains power supply has been plugged in, I found all the onboard electrical systems had totally failed,(Nb: only the fridge had been left running) however, the main engine battery was fine and the engine started immediately. I checked the power supply into the consumer unit and the test switch tripped correctly, I then checked both leisure batteries with a volt meter and they were totally flat.

 

I then checked the Elektroblock EBL unit and could see nothing untoward, Both the 50amp and

2 amp fuses in the leisure battery compartment were fine, however, on checking the two similar fuses in the main engine battery compartment, the 50amp fuse was good, but the 20amp fuse had blown! I replaced the fuse feeling confident I had located the break in the power supply, (although not necessarily the cause). I was wrong all systems were still down.

 

This is the first time I have experienced total auxiliary failure, whilst plugged into the mains, I have now hooked up an independent battery charger to both auxiliary batteries, after 2 hours all systems were active and back online, after 24 hours charge, the consumer voltage monitor above the door was showing 12 volts for the leisure batteries and 12.5 volts for the main engine battery.

 

Having now exhausted my level of Electrical expertise, what have I established? well, I am pretty certain the onboard Elektroblock EBL charging unit has failed, what I don’t know is how to prove or disprove if it is totally dead and needs to be replaced, or has something else failed that needs to be replaced?

 

Can anyone please advise/suggest the next move along with any recommendations, I don’t mind if I have to fit a new onboard charging unit, which having checked it out today, on a like for like change over I don't think I would have any problems completing the task.

 

I await any responses with interest.

 

Kind regards

 

RFC7

 

(Title edited by Keithl for clarity)

[Robbo]

Can't really help but ...........have you really added the second battery in SERIES with the original leisure battery?

[Brian Kirby]

I think the second battery may have overloaded the Elecktroblock. Schaudt recommendd that the charging current of the charger be at least 10% of the connected battery Ah capacity. You seem to have 185Ah of battery, but the max output of our EBL99 (I'm assuming similar on your van) is 13A. Do you have the relevant manuals?

[RFC7]

Thank you for pointing out that error on my part, even I know the significant difference between 'In series and parallel', and then stupidly typed 'In Series'. The batteries were definitely connected in Parallel as in Red to Red and Black to Black.

Thank you again for reading my post and spotting the mistake.

RFC7

 

[aandncaravan]

My guess would be that the original battery has gone past it's best and killed the charger?

 

The connection of a new and old battery will be an issue. Varta say the batteries should be within 6 months of age.

 

The fuse you found burnt out supplies 12v to the fridge from the Alternator and is also used by the EBL to 'reverse Mains charge' the Starter battery.

 

 

If both habitation batteries have dropped to zero volts they will have suffered severely shortened life, Exide say a battery dropped below 95% DOD will have only a handful of charge/discharge cycles available, see the attached chart below.

 

Suggest you treat both batteries as suspect and advise you don't get the charger repaired until you are sure they are good, because if the batteries are as poor as I suspect, they will take out the repaired/replacement charger.

 

The charger is likely to be an 18amp version, probably an EBL 99/119 and will cope with two 90Ah batteries, PROVIDED they are both good and not tired, otherwise the charger will be stressed.

 

As Brian states 180Ah is on the upper limit of the chargers capability so care should be taken not to discharge them too low, especially if the Starter battery also needs charging by the EBL at the same time.

 

Adding a second battery to an Elektroblock EBL results in battery recharge times that can increase by 10 fold, not the 2 fold you might imagine, requiring 2 or more days to fully recharge on 230v. See our webpage on how a charger works for an explanation of why this is : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/how-does-a-charger-work.php

 

 

Suggest you fit only ultra efficient batteries and discharge to no more than 50% DOD?

 

 

You don't need to replace an Elektroblock EBL, we repair them at £130, supply remanufactured units at £250 or new EBL 119's at £320.

You don't need to pay Hymer's £590 for a replacement.

 

 

The Varta LA is an AGM which you are mixing with a wet LFD90 battery, not a good idea?

.

 

 

 

 

 

[RFC7]

Thank you, Brian,

 

I do now have an English version of the Hymer Exsis i588 handbook, but you may be referring to a different handbook, if so, no I do not.

The details of both leisure batteries are as follows: The original is a Varta Professional series LA 95amp, it also shows 85AH - RC198 and MCA 1063

The new battery fitted is also a Varta Professional series LFD 90amp, it also shows 77AH - RC174 and MCA 1000.

As I said in my post, I did wonder if the variants in batteries in both age and amperage have contributed to the problem.

I have paused this reply to check on the charging situation and it has not changed in the past few hours, leisure batteries are showing 12 volts, Main engine battery 12.5 volts. If it is still the same in the morning I think I may try charging each battery independent of one another, at present, they are still connected in Parallel.

I do value your input and look forward to your further contribution towards hopefully solving the problem.

Regards

RFC7

 

[aandncaravan]

See my post above that looks like it arrived only slightly before yours?

 

Around 2015 Hymer started fitting AGM batteries, yet the charging systems, neither Alternator nor mains charger, supported them.

As a result we saw many Motorhomes with prematurely failed AGM batteries, usually less than 2 years old. The EBL was usually a casualty of the AGM failure.

 

Around early 20116 Hymer started rolling out the Schaudt Eleltroblock EBL 119 AGM chargers to replace the old Elektroblock EBL 99, but didn't resolve the issue with Alternator charging until this year, when an intelligent module was added to provide the AGM required 14.6v.

 

I would be very surprised if the original AGM battery is still good.

 

 

 

 

[RFC7]

Thank you for your valued contribution, having read your comments I am gearing myself up for the purchase of two new identical leisure batteries ( your recommendations please) and a replacement Elektroblock, once I am 100% certain this will solve the problem.

In August I enjoyed a great trip to Mid Wales and have already decided I would like to revisit Wales and see more of it, well I was conceived in Swansea but got dropped in Bristol. So maybe a return trip is looming sooner than I thought!

If it is established 100% that a new Elektroblock and two new batteries would solve the problem, is this a job you could take on if I was to come up to Conwy? I live in Mid Devon, but would break the trip via my daughter's mountain bike centre in Brechfa, (mudtrek.co.uk)

Regards

RFC7

[RFC7]

Thank you, this post follows my previous. Is the modified 14.6 volt modification available from you guys now,

along with the EBL 119 AGM onboard charging unit?

 

RFC7

[aandncaravan]

We do not think that AGM batteries are the best option in a Motorhome by a long way, so don't recommend the fitment of the module which provides AGM optimised Alternator charge capability.

 

We do sell the EBL 119 AGM optimised charger (5 in stock), because on the Gel/wet setting it has a 16 hour fixed timer (increased from 4 hours) much more suited to bigger battery banks, which is explained on the 'How does a Charger work' webpage.

 

However, if you fit 2 x Varta LFD90 batteries (which we would suggest) there is no need to replace your EBL, a charger repair at £130 would be more cost effective?

The Powerframe Varta LFD range is much more efficient than a conventional battery, so places a lighter load on a charger, hence being able to support a larger battery bank than average.

 

 

But happy to do things the way you want, have a look at our 'North Wales' webpage for places to see and visit while you are in the area. We pay for your first nights stay at a local campsite.

 

Only problem is timing we are really busy, only the 24th and 25th October are free, after that we shutdown for half term well into November. Winter is quieter, so the best time to take our holidays.

 

Email us on aandncaravanservices@gmail.com if you want to discuss further.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RFC7]

Thank you for your prompt reply. I will as you suggest, contact you by email, however, before doing so can you answer the following question.

The second Varta battery I added to my Hymer Exsis i588 was the Varta LFD 90, as you, in fact, recommend, it was purchased new in June this year. In your opinion would it be acceptable to purchase a further identical battery, or should I buy two replacements before visiting you on October 24th/25th for the repair of the EBL Charger?

Is the repair something that can be completed within that time frame, or would the unit require shipping to you prior to those dates, and then collected after being fitted and proven on site.

 

Regards

RFC7

[aandncaravan]

We can remove the EBL, fit a rebuilt Schaudt charger PCB and re-install the EBL in the Motorhome, Plus complete a basic electric assessment of the usual failure points inside 2 hours, provided the EBL location has fair access. We normally ask that 4 hours is allowed for the unexpected, but normally completed in less than 2.

We can repair your existing PCB but it needs to have a 'Soak test' over night, which the exchange unit will have already gone through, so fitting a pre rebuilt Schaudt charger board inside the existing EBL is the more reliable and faster option.

 

Or you can remove the EBL yourself (full instructions on EBL removal and refitting 3/4's down the Schaudt page : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/schaudt-elektroblock.php ) and send it to us.

 

 

The existing Varta battery has dropped to zero volts.

The Exide chart above shows for their Dual purpose battery (lower of the three lines in the graph) that at 25% DOD you will get around 375 cycles, at 50% DOD you get at 260 cycles and at 100% DOD you get 1 cycle.

 

Pretty much the same picture for the Exide AGM and Gel batteries shown on the graph, in that the Deeper they discharge the fewer the cycles. 100% DOD equals expired.

That message is repeated by all the big battery manufacturers.

 

So your old Varta can't be much good, can it?

 

That doesn't mean your Varta will loose voltage, and we know some that have even 'passed' a battery test, but in terms of it's true capacity and the extra load it places on the Alternator and mains charger, that is going to be far from ideal.

 

 

Exide say it should be recycled, if you reuse it you risk the Alternator, the new battery and the EBL.

 

For £92, I wouldn't take that chance, not just because of the cost of all these things, like £400 for a Bosch Alternator, but the hassle when it happens in the middle of a holiday.

 

Lots of people will have stories of how much fun it is trying to get a new Alternator fitted by a little Garage in the middle of a holiday in Spain.

Que?

 

 

 

[lennyhb]

I agree with what has been said AGM's are known for failing even with the correct charger. My last van was a 2014 Exsis i678 both AGM batteries failed at 18 months old I replaced them with Gel's and never had any more problems. As the Gel's were only a year old when we changed vans I moved them to the new van and fitted a 3rd, well pleased with the performance.

 

The cheap dual use AGM's they fit in Motorhomes are just not suitable for the job if you want an AGM you need to shell out nearly £600 a battery for a proper one from the likes of Victron.

 

Note for Allan - Hymer have been fitting AGM's since 2011

[Brian Kirby]

aandncaravan - 2017-10-10 7:59 PM...........................As Brian states 180Ah is on the upper limit of the chargers capability so care should be taken not to discharge them too low, especially if the Starter battery also needs charging by the EBL at the same time.

 

Adding a second battery to an Elektroblock EBL results in battery recharge times that can increase by 10 fold, not the 2 fold you might imagine, requiring 2 or more days to fully recharge on 230v. See our webpage on how a charger works for an explanation of why this is : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/how-does-a-charger-work.php....................

Allan, just a thought, but in view of your comments above, would it make more sense to reduce the battery capacity installed, by fitting a pair of slightly lower capacity batteries or, alternatively, would it be worth considering (possible?) an upgrade to, or an addition to (isn't there a plug-in supplementary charger unit?), the Elektroblock, so that it is better able to cope with the 180/190 Ah installed capacity?

 

It just strikes me that you seem to be intimating that the existing charger is a bit marginal for the installed capacity and, as some expenditure is now inevitable, it might be worth taking steps to eliminate that marginality at the same time. Good to see you firing on all four again! :-D

[RFC7]

Hi Allen,

 

I misread the EBL model number of my Elektroblock, it is not a 99 or 119 it is, in fact, a 29. Everything I have researched on this model shows it as identical to the 99 model! I just wanted to ensure you were armed with all the facts before I begin planning a visit to North Wales towards the end of October. Please confirm this new piece of evidence has no bearing on what has gone before in the previous posts.

I can also confirm that access to the charger unit is not a problem, it is situated under the LHS front seat which in my case is the driver's seat as the Hymer is a left-hand drive model.

 

Regards

RFC7

[aandncaravan]

The fact it is a EBL 29 makes no difference at all.

 

 

Lenny, Thank you, We didn't start specialising in Hymers until 2013, and they were mostly older ones initially.

I had seen Banner AGM's in pre 2015 vehicles, but assumed they had been retro fitted, not original.

 

 

Brian, you are right, Schaudt do recommend the fitment of a second charger with more batteries and Hymer generally include the cost of one in the "second battery upgrade pack" option, hence it costing something like £400 for a second battery.

 

However, we rarely ever (probably only 12 in total since 2012?), see a second charger plugged into the Port on the EBL which is there for that purpose.

 

By mentioning that this option is available, sometimes sounds we are trying to 'plug' products, so we don't.

Secondly, the fitment of a second charger might endow the false feeling to the MH owner that it has become a 'Heavy Duty' installation and will take 'any mistreatment'.

Most installations (all Motorhomes) work best when the battery is taken to no more than 50% DOD, as can be seen by the Exide chart on how much a batteries life is shortened by discharging more heavily.

 

By pointing out the Alternator, wiring, and mains charger have a limit of 2 x 90Ah LFD batteries and it needs to be managed with consideration, generally leads to more awareness of 'limits' and gives a better understanding with greater reliability.

 

The Varta LFD range has technology inside which can place upto a 70% lighter load on the charging systems, meaning the usual 10 times rule can be relaxed for these batteries.

Therefore while we advise caution, there is a bit of leeway.