A frame to France & Spain

[Stuart]

Has anyone recent experience of taking a car to France and Spain on an A frame and if so, did you have any problems or queries from officialdom?

[Brian Kirby]

Stuart

If you do a forum search under A frame, I think you'll get more information than you ever dreamed could exist!

[Mel E]

Technically, A-frame towing is definitely illegal in France and Spain. But lots do it - I have myself. How?

 

Doing so relies on EU mutuality rules that indicate that, if a vehicle is road legal in one EU state, then it may be temporarily imported and used in any other EU country with impunity.

 

BUT, this mutuality rule may have been over-used. For example, regardless of such mutuality, it is NOT legal to drive a vehicle in the UK which breaks our own height, width, length and weight rules, either for 6 months or for 6 seconds.

 

I therefore suggest that such mutuality may be very tenuous for A-frame towing. Many get away with it. In Spain, expecially, some are fined and I have even come across cases where vehicles have been impounded!

 

As they say, you pays your money and you takes your choice . . . But bear in mind that Spain was having a big crackdown on what it saw as illegal vehicles last summer. For example, many UK and German pilots were fined for not having 'LONG VEHICLE' signs on the back of their trailers - signs which are actually ILLEGAL in the UK.

 

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[Brian Kirby]

Having just discovered this site, it seems to have a lot of useful information on this subject, as well as on others.  It may repay a look.

http://www.ukmotorhomes.net/a-frames.shtml

[Mel E]

Brian,

 

The difficult-to-cpmply-with bit of the statement you mention is:

 

"From 1 October 1988 the inertia braking system was required to allow the trailer to be reversed by the towing vehicle without imposing a sustained drag and such devices used for this purpose must engage and disengage automatically. This will be very difficult to achieve on an "A" frame using an inertia (overrun) device."

 

Not just very difficult, but near impossible. And, of coursem with cster steering front wheels it requires enormous skill (and lots of practice) to get the reversing car to go where you want it to.

 

And, after all that, even if it is legal in the UK, it certainly is not legal in most of Europe, and I believe that the mutuality rules do not apply to this. But I am checking.

 

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Mel E

[Rowan Lee]

Stuart,

 

We got our A Frame from ProTow in Poole. They told us of a customer who was fined in Spain but whose MP (or was it MEP) got the fine refunded on the basis that if it was legal here (OK, I know the arguments) it is legal in the rest of the EU. They will give you a copy of the relevant paperwork and also a note in various languages which will explain this. Having said all that, I have no personal experience of travelling abroad with the AFrame. I also asked ProTow about the reversing problems and obviously they have discussed this at length with the relevant people. It IS possible to reverse the AFrame (I have done it, just a foot or two) and it seems the law does not say how far it has to be reversed. Even if you have to literally shove the car with all wheels locked, it can still be "reversed". From our own personal point of view, and because our insurance company is happy to insure both vehicles on the AFrame, we have decided this is the way for us, until such time as it is proved otherwise.

 

[Guest JudgeMental]

Rowan

 

are you sure you are covered fully comprehensive on towed vehicle as well?

 

as this seems to be contested on other threads.

 

will watch this thread with great interest as have just found out that restricted licence still allows me to tow.

 

best small car for the job?

[hymer634]

Hi Rowan,,

 

did you fully describe the modifications to the towed vehicle to the insurance company i.e the metal brackets fixed to the front to allow the attachment of the A frame ? It has been mentioned elsewhere that they would affect the crumple zone and cause more damage to the vehicle and/or pedestrians in the event of an accident than an unmodified vehicle.

I am thinking of going the A frame route and am about to write to my insurers to describe the modifications and ask if the insurance remains fully in force.

 

 

Alan

[Mel E]

Hello Rowan,

 

Yes, I am fully aware of the Pro-Tow (Car-a-Tow) paperwork having had one of their systems for several years. I am also aware of the story of the man who was fined recovering his fine. And I am aware of their discussions with the Dfor T. I have had some interesting discussions with Alan Bee on the topic.

 

However, I am also aware of people who have been fined and NOT got their fines back, of at least one case where the towed car was impounded, and so on.

 

Let's face it: Pro-Tow are in the business of selling A-Frames. The paperwork they present is unlikely to say you might have problems, is it?

 

My own view - and I have stuidied this (and viewed the original Regulations) at some length - is that A-Frame towing is of doubtful legality in the UK but is tolerated. Only a court case can decide whether it is actually legal or not and, so far, nobody has been charged with illegal towing. If they were, they would face an extremely expensive court case to try and establish legality as expensive, expert barristers would inevitably get involved as the case would establish a precedent. Or they would plead guilty, which might not actually establish a precedent, but would certainly make a lot of people nervous.

 

Having also studied the legislation as far as possible, it is clearly illegal in most European countries, and I am not at all sure that the mutuality rules apply in this case. In fact the same legislation is in force (mostly EU generated) in all member states and I have explained before on this forum why the same legislation appears to permit A-Frame towing in the UK but not in other member states (a difference in interpretation of law).

 

I think your 'locked wheels' + 'a few feet' would definitely fail to meet the legal requirement. The regs do not specify a distance that the reversing must cover and you should therefore assume that the regs mean 'a reasonable distance'. I think any court would translate this to mean more than a few feet.

 

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Mel E

[Mel E]

Insurance

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When I was A-Frame towing I did obtain written confiormation from two separate insurers that:

 

- the car/A-Frame combination was covered Third Party by the motorhome's insurance

 

- the car itself continued to have comprehensive cover when being towed.

 

So it is possible to get confirmation from some insurers.

 

This is important as, without it, the insurer could, after an accident, refuse to pay out on the grounds that such towing is illegal. It would then be up to you to prove (probably in a civil court action) that it is legal. This would cost more than the claim!

 

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Mel E

[Brian Kirby]

Mel E - 2007-01-14 1:58 PM Brian, The difficult-to-cpmply-with bit of the statement you mention is: "From 1 October 1988 the inertia braking system was required to allow the trailer to be reversed by the towing vehicle without imposing a sustained drag and such devices used for this purpose must engage and disengage automatically. This will be very difficult to achieve on an "A" frame using an inertia (overrun) device." Not just very difficult, but near impossible. And, of coursem with cster steering front wheels it requires enormous skill (and lots of practice) to get the reversing car to go where you want it to. And, after all that, even if it is legal in the UK, it certainly is not legal in most of Europe, and I believe that the mutuality rules do not apply to this. But I am checking. ==== Mel E

I agree Mel, I don't understand how a servo assisted braking system (most current cars) can generate compliant braking force whatever the overrun device fitted. 

I have just once tried stopping a servo braked car when the servo wasn't working.  Sticking my foot on the ground would have been more effective! 

I do not think A frame braking can be made to work, except once, or perhaps twice, while the vacuum reservoir is still far enough below atmospheric pressure for it to assist the overrun.  After that, no brakes on the car and the motorhome gets a 3/4 tonne shove from behind when you try to stop it. 

In the dry, maybe just about acceptable.  In the wet, in an emergency, just pray!

[Dave Newell]

For what its worth, my interpretation of the reversing requirement is that you need to be able to reverse the outfit, under total and sole control of the driver of the towing vehicle, for whatever distance is required to complete the required manouvre.

 

For example you turn into a narrow road and meet a tractor and trailer coming the other way. He has to reverse a lot further than you so you should therefore reverse and let him past. For you to reverse your outfdit might well require you to negotiate a turn. This is where A frames fail because you cannot control the steered direction of the towed vehicle from the wheel of the towing vehicle.

 

Don't beleive me? go to a quiet, empty car park and try to reverse your car around a bend without touching the steering wheel, this is exactly what you are trying to do with reversing an A frame outfit and until cars with though sensitive steering become available it will remain an impossibility.

 

D.

[Mel E]

Brian,

 

I was not commenting on forward braking but on the difficulty of reversing when (a) the brakes are automatiucally applied by the over-run device and, (b) the car's front wheel castor steer out of control.

 

In my experience the over-run device does produce sufficient brake force on the pedal even without the servo unit. With the brake cable to the car disconnected, you can feel the car push you up the rear when you apply the tow car's brakes. With it connected, there is no sense of this at all and the car brakes very smoothly. In any case, it's near impossible to measure these forces with and without the tow vehicle connected!

 

Dave,

 

I assume you mean thoughT steering?

 

Mel E

====

 

 

[Rowan Lee]

Judgmental,

 

Yes, we have written confirmation from both our original insurance companies - Comfort for the van and Saga for the car. We have now reinsured the car with Comfort so they are now both with the same insurance company (Norwich Union). We sent copies (attached to our proposal form) of the ProTow leaflets and photographs of the car to show the modifications which have been done.

 

Mel,

 

I understand what you say. However, having run a business myself, I am quite sure that ProTow want their product to be legitimate as far as it can be. I agree that the only way we will find out for sure is if there is a test case. I wish we could have one somehow without anyone being personally on the line, then we could clear this up once and for all.

 

The bit about the brakes not working efficiently is worrying but again ProTow have told us that they have had the system tested on rolling roads and it has been found to comply. I know they are trying to sell a product but surely no-one can get away with selling a product like this if it doesn't do exactly what it says on the box?

 

We chose the A-Frame because we couldn't physically man- (or in my case woman-) handle a trailer. I wonder if You could use one of those caravan mover thingies?

 

[Brian Kirby]

Mel E - 2007-01-15 4:19 PM Brian, I was not commenting on forward braking but on the difficulty of reversing when (a) the brakes are automatiucally applied by the over-run device and, (b) the car's front wheel castor steer out of control. In my experience the over-run device does produce sufficient brake force on the pedal even without the servo unit. With the brake cable to the car disconnected, you can feel the car push you up the rear when you apply the tow car's brakes. With it connected, there is no sense of this at all and the car brakes very smoothly. In any case, it's near impossible to measure these forces with and without the tow vehicle connected! Dave, I assume you mean thoughT steering? Mel E ====

Apologies Mel, my mistake.  Must read more carefully!

I remain sceptical re normal braking after my experience, however.  I do wonder how much one make/model of car varies from another re the amount of servo assistance on the brakes, and the effectiveness of braking when there is no servo effect.  Varying the type of lining material used to have a quite dramatic effect on braking performance, but I guess most current pads are similar in characteristics.

Caravans used to have a manual catch to lock out the overrun when reversing.  Presumably A frames have something similar, although you'll have to jump out and run round the back to engage it.

Steering when reversing?  What you say seems entirely predictable to me.

[Stuart]

Thank you to everybody who has contributed to this thread, I am waiting for reply from Caravan Club insureres for both car & van to see whether they are prepared to give full cover.

 

Stuart

[Mel E]

Brian,

 

The manual catch has been illegal on trailers built since about 1983. The mechanism now has to disengage the brakes automatically when the vehicle reverses.

 

Rowan,

 

I agree that Pro-Tow are trying to be as honest as possible. However at least one of their competitors will happily sell you an unbraked A-frame for a car, that is, without any shadow of doubt and without the need for any test cases, completely illegal. And even Pro-Tow are offering for sale a product which is not clearly legal in this country and is definitely illegal in the rest of Europe.

 

Unfortunately, salesmen do sell illegal products. Did you read the thread last year about the man who was sold a US RV that was illegal on UK roads because of its width? Again, no grey area, but this company had imported an illegal vehicle.

 

So, as they say, 'caveat emptor'!

 

Mel

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[Rowan Lee]

Indeed Mel, we are caveating! And praying it won't be us that becomes the test case, but if we are, then so be it.

[Mel E]

Rowan,

 

If you are, then plead guilty and pay the fine. Any other course of action will cost you a fortune in lawyer's fees - both for your side and, if/when you're found guilty anyway, for the prosecution costs.

 

Have fun in the meantime!

 

Mel

[Brian Kirby]

Mel E - 2007-01-16 11:27 AM Brian, The manual catch has been illegal on trailers built since about 1983. The mechanism now has to disengage the brakes automatically when the vehicle reverses.  Mel ===

Oh well, in that case, I assume some kind of catch operated electromagnetically via the reversing light circuit would be required?  However, I still have the reservations expressed about braking efficiency with no servo, and I still don't understand how one gets the car to steer right in reverse via the A frame!

Overall, and for all their failings, I think purpose designed trailers are simpler and safer.  I've seen a couple of very neat designs, one that even facilitated driving the car straight on while the trailer was hitched - although I did wonder more than a bit about the negative hitch loads while this was in progress.  Lifted the rear of the van quite impressively!

[Dave Newell]

From a purely legal point of view a trailer is by far the best method of transporting a car along with a motorhome. The irony is that an A frame towed car is far more stable while being towed because the front and rear axles are further apart. reversing round corners is nigh on impossible with an A frame outfit unless you are very lucky or have a god like ability to control your towed cars steering by thought (yes that was what i meant earlier Mel, thanks).

 

D.

[Brian Kirby]

After all that, a question.

It seems A frames are illegal in several European countries, but not all.  I therefore assume their illegality or otherwise stems from national legislation and not from EC directives.

If this is correct, does anyone know why they have been legislated against, in those states where they are illegal?

I ask, because if, as claimed, and as seems reasonable, the A frame is the most stable means of forward towing, banning its use is perverse.  I know they're all foreigners, but even so!  These things usually have their origins in some event, against which the legislation can usually be seen as a logical response, once the reasoning is unearthed.

For example, I believe Spain's very stringent bottled gas regulations stem from a tragedy back in the 70s, just outside Tarragona, where a road accident shot a lorry loaded with gas bottles into a crowded campsite.  From that, in an attempt to produce "never again" legislation, the present restrictions originate.

But A frames?  What triggered that?

[Dave Newell]

I can't comment on the legality, or otherwise, of A frame towing abroad but in the UK its not so much that they have been declared illegal as that they don't comply with current trailer law in several areas, most importantly brakes and the required ability to reverse under the towing vehicle drivers sole control.

 

Maybe the DfT (or whichever Gov't dep't has the power to do so) should create a new category for them to clear this mess up? The braking issues can, I'm sure, be resolved with a little engineering and thought. Reversing will be trickier.

 

D.

[Mel E]

Brian (& Dave),

 

I have explained the law in past postings and in the pages of MMM. However, to completely clear up this posting, the position is as follows.

 

1. Virtually all aspects of trailer regulations are now uniform across the EU - the same rules apply in all countries.

 

2. The regulations, as published, say nothing about A-Frame towing of cars, except, very briefly, in respect of vehicle recovery, where the use of A-frames is very restricted.

 

3. The UK vendors of A-Frames claim that the A-frame, together with lighting and brake connections, number plate change and rear reflective triangles, turns your car into a trailer and that trailer law therefore applies rather than vehicle revovery law. Since the regulations say absolutely nothing about such conversions, this is a matter of opinion which may, ultimately, be tested before a judge.

 

4. However, there are certain aspects of trailer law which it is doubtful that an A-frame towed car can meet. The principal one is that of being able to reverse the trailer (car) under full control with the brakes disengaged (a physical impossibility for a car).

 

5. Why this muddle? Basically because the current regulations were drawn up without any thought of A-frame towing.

 

6. So if these regulations are basically the same across the EU, why is it possibly legal in this country and definitely illegal in most other EU member states? The answer lies in the fact that we have two completely different legal systems in operation. English Law is based on exclusion: i.e., you can do anything you want unless it is specifically excluded in law. A-frame towing is not specifically excluded, so you can do it if you can meet all the other trailer regulations. Napoleonic Law, which applies in most other major EU countries including France, Italy, Spain and, perhaps suprisingly, Germany, is basically a permissive system: i.e., you cannot do anything unless the law specifically permits you to do so. It does not permit you to do A-frame towing, so you cannot.

 

7. It is highly likely that the next review of trailer legislation by the EU will regularise the position by introducing an outright ban on A-frame towing, except for vehicle recovery. Fortunately, the EU is legally bound to carry out a formal consultation process, as is the UK DforT, before laying proposals before EU ministers and then the parliament.

 

I hope this clarifies the situation!

 

Mel E

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[Brian Kirby]

Exemplary: thanks Mel.  Sorry to provoke you into going through all that lot again, though I guess it does no harm to re-state it!  It does seem to come up again and again.  I'm sure we should have an FAQ section on here.