Winter warmth

[Tony Jones]

Does anyone know if you can use a Truma blown-air heater (gas fired) on its lowest t'stat setting to keep the interior from getting cold and damp in between uses?

The van won't be SORNed as we'll run it at least every week, and it's parked on the open carpark adjoining our block of flats.

Possible issues would be:

1. amount of gas used, even on lowest temp setting

2. safety, leaving the gas on when unattended (we often do that for the fridge, when we leave the van on a site or aire and go off on a bus or train, but this would be overnight too ... just not sure)

3. battery usage for the blower.

 

Thoughts anyone?

[Fiat Ducato]

Hi there

I too am in a similar boat as you. Our motorhome is parked in a open car park for our block of flats.

 

No expert but butane and even propane gas left on for long periods can cause moisture. Not to mention all the dangers associated with leaving gas on like you said. And if god forbid anything did happen, your insurance would probably be void, there would obviously be an investigation, fire service reports etc.

 

I would recommend doing what we do instead, I purchased several of those cheap moisture traps from the pound shop and leave them in various places around the camper, cupboards, bed area etc. When they get full chuck them away and get new ones, £1 a time. Also leave vents open and one or two windows open on vent setting. And If you can run an extension cable out once a week for 24hrs with a dehumidifier connected to draw out any excess moisture. The open vents will allow air to circulate around in your camper.

 

Start the engine couple of times a month and put the blowers on, this will stop your battery going dead and warm the van, don't forget to move it back and forwards a few times to stop the wheels/brakes from rusting on, happened to me last year, left it sitting there for 6 months, and the front brake pads rusted solid onto my disc. Had to bash them off and as a result needed new brake pads and disc.

 

Now I leave the handbrake off, leave it in gear.

 

Thats really all you can do, oh and use it even if its just a quick day trip to the seafront somewhere for a cuppa and watch the sea.

 

Good luck

[Tony Jones]

Thanks Paul, more or less confirms what I've been thinking. Especially with regards to using it, even if just as a car, once a week.

 

[EJB]

By far the vast majority of Motorhomes/Caravans are never heated in winter without any problem.

Heat can produce condensation...a dehumidifier, to solve that, simply draws cold damp air into the vehicle through the many vents and holes.

 

There are the two opposing points of view but the vast majority don't even think about the perceived 'problem' 8-)

[Brian Kirby]

Fiat Ducato - 2017-11-20 2:02 PM.....................

1 I would recommend doing what we do instead, I purchased several of those cheap moisture traps from the pound shop and leave them in various places around the camper, cupboards, bed area etc. When they get full chuck them away and get new ones, £1 a time. Also leave vents open and one or two windows open on vent setting. And If you can run an extension cable out once a week for 24hrs with a dehumidifier connected to draw out any excess moisture. The open vents will allow air to circulate around in your camper.

 

2 Start the engine couple of times a month and put the blowers on, this will stop your battery going dead and warm the van, don't forget to move it back and forwards a few times to stop the wheels/brakes from rusting on, happened to me last year, left it sitting there for 6 months, and the front brake pads rusted solid onto my disc. Had to bash them off and as a result needed new brake pads and disc.

............................

Good luck

Re 1, agreed. Except, if parked in a car park to which there is public access, I would not leave the windows as described. They are so easy to force from that position. For an unoccupied van, the permanent vents should be sufficient on their own. I'd also recommend you leave all cupboard doors open, and the fridge door in its vent position.

 

Re 2, I'd say take it out and drive for 15 miles or so in preference, so that the power train, exhaust, and running gear all get properly warned up. Just starting it and running it won't put back the battery power used to start it, and it won't really get the gearbox, final drive, and hubs exercised and warm.

[Derek Uzzell]

A Truma heater should not produce moisture merely because it is running on gas, as the part of the heater that encloses the gas-burner should (hopefully) be hermetically sealed from the motorhome’s habitation area. If (say) the burners of a gas-hob were to be used to heat the motorhome’s interior, the burners’ naked flames would produce moisture.

 

Having said that (as Paul advises) the safety issue alone makes it inadvisable to use the heater as Tony suggests.

[StuartO]

Derek Uzzell - 2017-11-21 5:27 AMA Truma heater should not produce moisture merely because it is running on gas, as the part of the heater that encloses the gas-burner should (hopefully) be hermetically sealed from the motorhome’s habitation area....

But the MH is not hermetically sealed so moist winter air will enter the vehicle and water vapour in the warmed air will still condense, for example on the inside of any windows or roof vents which are not double skinned.

 

I think it is sensible not to heat a stored MH at all, even if you do insulate the windscreen etc because it will make the vehicle more attractive to vermin.

 

Whether you put some heat in or not, be sure to set a few mouse traps inside.  Noevember is when the little sods are likely to invade, looking for shelter.  I use the traditional "Little Nipper" traps with chocolate-covered raisins as bait.

 

[PJay]

Tony Jones - 2017-11-20 2:05 PM

 

Thanks Paul, more or less confirms what I've been thinking. Especially with regards to using it, even if just as a car, once a week.

 

I definitely would not leave the gas on, when parked in a public accessible car park. If it got accidentally banged into , could cause a problem. Our van is left without hook up for weeks at a time, no problem. I use the cheap dehumidify crystals from the pound shops,(they now cost a bit more than £1) , Have done for 11 years , and van stays nice and dry!! with just the toilet vent , don't leave windows open, at all

Anyway Tony, now you are fully retired, use it to visit all the areas near you. Take a picnic and sit and enjoy the views !! Hope you are both enjoying the change in lifestyle ?

 

PJay

[BruceM]

Whether you put some heat in or not, be sure to set a few mouse traps inside.  Noevember is when the little sods are likely to invade, looking for shelter.  I use the traditional "Little Nipper" traps with chocolate-covered raisins as bait.

I’m intrigued by the mouse issue. I know they can squeeze through surprisingly small places but fail to see how they'd get into my van or my car for that matter. How common is this issue when over wintering?

[StuartO]

BruceM - 2017-11-21 6:50 AM

Whether you put some heat in or not, be sure to set a few mouse traps inside.  Noevember is when the little sods are likely to invade, looking for shelter.  I use the traditional "Little Nipper" traps with chocolate-covered raisins as bait.

I’m intrigued by the mouse issue. I know they can squeeze through surprisingly small places but fail to see how they'd get into my van or my car for that matter. How common is this issue when over wintering?

 

It's said that if you can poke a pencil into a hole a mouse can get through it.  Mice (and rats) will chew their way through to get in if they need to, and one of the risks is that they will chew through your wiring loom, either because they want to get past a grommet or because they like the taste of the insulation!  I have caught mice in traps inside my MH, which is why I set several traps every winter.

 

 

 

[Keith T]

We have had mouse ingress a couple of times when parked on storage area - and yes they can get through minute spaces - fortunately all they chewed was paper, which gave away their presence!!

 

In terms of the OPs question, I would not go down that option, and having had our van in storage until recently, but over the past several years, have never worried about it getting cold, as long as it has been drained of water

.

However, we are able to visit it regularly, and also take it for a drive roughly every couple of weeks, and all windows are closed, with internal blinds and [added Screen covers externally round the cab.

 

In terms of normal winter usage, we would normally be in sites with EHU so heating on electric is the norm, and other than that occasionally would leave the fridge on gas, when away from sites, (shopping!). We find the blown ait heating can be adjusted to keep the wan at a suitable internal temperature, usually on the lower electric setting.

[Tony Jones]

PJay - 2017-11-20 2:54 PM

 

I definitely would not leave the gas on, when parked in a public accessible car park. If it got accidentally banged into , could cause a problem. Our van is left without hook up for weeks at a time, no problem. I use the cheap dehumidify crystals from the pound shops,(they now cost a bit more than £1) , Have done for 11 years , and van stays nice and dry!! with just the toilet vent , don't leave windows open, at all

Anyway Tony, now you are fully retired, use it to visit all the areas near you. Take a picnic and sit and enjoy the views !! Hope you are both enjoying the change in lifestyle ?

 

PJay

 

Certainly are Pauline! And yes, we've already used the van for a few day trips since our last week away. And we've decided that any week we don't do that, we'll use it for the shopping or go to church in it. So it's not being "stored" in any sense, just parked, for a few days at a time.

My OP was just a wild idea, after getting innthe other day and finding it really cold inside.

[Brian Kirby]

StuartO - 2017-11-20 2:44 PM

 

Derek Uzzell - 2017-11-21 5:27 AMA Truma heater should not produce moisture merely because it is running on gas, as the part of the heater that encloses the gas-burner should (hopefully) be hermetically sealed from the motorhome’s habitation area....

But the MH is not hermetically sealed so moist winter air will enter the vehicle and water vapour in the warmed air will still condense, for example on the inside of any windows or roof vents which are not double skinned. ........................

I'm not sure this is right Stuart. Condensation can form at any time when warm moist air meets a (relatively) cold surface. The ambient humidity level fluctuates continually so any relatively warm, humid day, followed by a cold night can produce condensation. Adding heat to the van (providing the source does not itself add humidity), should have no effect on this.

 

One takes the same air, with the same moisture content, and warms it. As one does so its relative humidity falls, meaning it can now support a higher moisture content, but it still have to find that extra moisture. It might come from moisture trapped in soft furnishings in the van, and this might lead that moisture to condense on windows etc. but, even so, unless the soft furnishings are quite damp, the impact on condensation should be negligible and the furnishings should end up a little drier.

 

There is an added complication that by warming the van slightly the internal surfaces are also warmed, so that the risk of internal condensation is correspondingly reduced. Whether these opposing factors will cancel each other out is impossible to predict but I'd guess that over time the impact is neutral.

 

The greater advantage of heating during cold weather, IMO, is that it helps to reduce condensation during those cold nights when the surface temperatures inside the van generally fall below the dew point of the trapped air, leading to a light film of condensation on the hard furnishings which, being mainly timber derived, and absorbant and so prone to swelling.

 

It is a matter of choice, of course, but I think the benefits are on the side of raising the internal temperature by a few degrees. To that end I install an electric greenhouse heater set to about 5C as a frost protection measure.

[Laika.brian]

Thanks Brian for post, I have been wondering what we should do, at the moment we have the Truma blown air heater to come on everyday to keep some warmth and as we want to use the MH don't want to be removing soft furnishings.

 

Heater sounds good , is it plugged in through electric hook up ? as this seems to be a continuous issue, the should a MH be on EHU all the time or not.

 

Brian

[Don636]

We have had our PVC for 4 years and it sits outside our house with no hook-up. It sits from November to February without moving, or being run or without heat and there is never any problem with moisture or damp and no problem starting up again (there is a solar panel which seems to be enough to keep the batteries topped up). We do take the soft furnishings and TV inside just in case. I don't see the point in heating the van up every now and then and am certainly not wasting money running heating all the time. We do open it up whenever possible to keep it well ventilated and I think this is more important than adding heat.

[Brian Kirby]

Laika.brian - 2017-11-21 10:20 PM

 

Thanks Brian for post, I have been wondering what we should do, at the moment we have the Truma blown air heater to come on everyday to keep some warmth and as we want to use the MH don't want to be removing soft furnishings.

 

Heater sounds good , is it plugged in through electric hook up ? as this seems to be a continuous issue, the should a MH be on EHU all the time or not.

 

Brian

Personally, I would not use the Truma in this way. I don't think they are designed/constructed for continuous use and, assuming you are running it on gas, it will be liable to use a lot of gas if left on 24/7.

 

What will work best for you will depend on what you local climate is like. Ireland is reputed to have a fairly mild, quite windy, but often damp climate generally but, as with England, I'm sure there are local variations on this theme. If you monitor the feel of the soft furnishings, especially the mattress/es, you will soon discover whether they are picking up moisture, and can then decide whether to add a little background head to counter this, or to remove those items to store indoors. It's all horses for courses.

 

There is a sharp division of opinion over whether to leave a van permanently on EHU. Some say it will over charge, and so damage, the habitation battery, others find otherwise. Which might apply in your case will depend on the type of battery charger fitted, and the type of battery installed. Some (especially newer) chargers are better able to sense the state of charge of the battery than others, and moderate the charge rate accordingly. Others use an algorithm that dictates the charge rate against time, reducing this to a trickle, or top-up rate after a pre set period has elapsed. Others lack these levels of sophistication and are liable to over charge the battery if left continually on. Providing the battery is in good condition, and is of an appropriate type, the more sophisticated (newer) chargers should not over-charge it, and from my personal experience, can be left on continually. However, you do need to know your battery and its condition. The fail safe, therefore, is to use the charger sparingly - possibly switching it on for 24 hours once a month. If you can identify the makes and models, and ideally ages, of you charger and habitation battery, you should be able to get much clearer advice on what is the best approach.

 

As to the heater it is a very simple, and now quite old, 400W greenhouse heater that contains a single looped heating element within a metal outer safety casing. The thermostat does not have a graduated scale, so I usually set it by trial and error, by simply turning the dial until I hear it click on, and then backing it off until it clicks off again. Then, if the van feels a bit cold inside, I wind it up until it just clicks on, and see if that seems about right, and so on. Isn't science wonderful! :-D

 

Hope this helps

[StuartO]

Brian Kirby - 2017-11-22 5:05 AM

StuartO - 2017-11-20 2:44 PM

Derek Uzzell - 2017-11-21 5:27 AMA Truma heater should not produce moisture merely because it is running on gas, as the part of the heater that encloses the gas-burner should (hopefully) be hermetically sealed from the motorhome’s habitation area....

But the MH is not hermetically sealed so moist winter air will enter the vehicle and water vapour in the warmed air will still condense, for example on the inside of any windows or roof vents which are not double skinned. ........................

I'm not sure this is right Stuart. Condensation can form at any time when warm moist air meets a (relatively) cold surface. The ambient humidity level fluctuates continually so any relatively warm, humid day, followed by a cold night can produce condensation. Adding heat to the van (providing the source does not itself add humidity), should have no effect on this.One takes the same air, with the same moisture content, and warms it. As one does so its relative humidity falls, meaning it can now support a higher moisture content, but it still have to find that extra moisture. It might come from moisture trapped in soft furnishings in the van, and this might lead that moisture to condense on windows etc. but, even so, unless the soft furnishings are quite damp, the impact on condensation should be negligible and the furnishings should end up a little drier. There is an added complication that by warming the van slightly the internal surfaces are also warmed, so that the risk of internal condensation is correspondingly reduced. Whether these opposing factors will cancel each other out is impossible to predict but I'd guess that over time the impact is neutral.The greater advantage of heating during cold weather, IMO, is that it helps to reduce condensation during those cold nights when the surface temperatures inside the van generally fall below the dew point of the trapped air, leading to a light film of condensation on the hard furnishings which, being mainly timber derived, and absorbant and so prone to swelling.It is a matter of choice, of course, but I think the benefits are on the side of raising the internal temperature by a few degrees. To that end I install an electric greenhouse heater set to about 5C as a frost protection measure.

Using low powered (but dry) heating inside the stored MH will raise the temperature and increase the amount of water vapour which the air mass will hold - but of course the MH is ventilated, so that means the heated air will rise and escape, if only through the small vents in the roof vents, drawing in outside air which might be more moist as well as colder, so I doubt that raising the inside temperature slightly in this way will achieve anything particularly useful.  I don't bother.

 

But raising the temperature will make the MH more attractive to vermin, so be sure to set mouse traps, whether or not you heat the MH!

 

[EJB]

Following my comments at the top I have never heard of a Caravan/Motorhome having any kind of problem due directly to ambient temperatures and high humidity.

 

[Muswell]

EJB - 2017-11-22 5:02 PM

 

Following my comments at the top I have never heard of a Caravan/Motorhome having any kind of problem due directly to ambient temperatures and high humidity.

Nor cars :-D

[Laika.brian]

The MH heating has a timed capability therefore we only run the Truma for short period over 24 hours much like home heating system. I do however take the point regarding using the on board heating system too much as to service/repair/ replace it would be much more costly that say greenhouse heater.

 

same with the EHU on a timer system at the plug so very short charge over 24 hours.

we live inland so weather would be very like midlands UK, say Burton on Trent, generally mild but prone to some frost in winter. at the moment temperatures will go from 12 to 13 degrees with lots of rain in the past few days down to freezing at night with polar lows and 6 to 9 daytime in the coming days,10 degree swing.

 

It is very good to get opinions from people with MH experience whom are so willing to share that knowledge , now that is the wonderful bit.

 

:-D

[ron.]

If experience counts, I will just say that we have owned thirteen vans over fifty years and never use any heat whilst unused in the winter - and have never had any damp issues.

[Ronnieus]

Try a couple of bowls of salt to keep condensation down. Works for me.

 

Phil :-D

[Derek Uzzell]

This 2006 CaravanTalk thread discusses use of hygroscopic materials (eg. table salt) to counter dampness in leisure vehicles

 

https://www.caravantalk.co.uk/community/topic/12227-bowl-of-salt/

 

My Rapido motorhome - like its predecessors - hibernates outside from mid-November through mid-March. I store all removable soft furnishing in my house, drain down the water system very thoroughly, pump up the tyres to 80psi and charge the starter and leisure batteries regularly, but I don’t attempt to heat the vehicle’s interior.

 

I don’t use hygroscopic materials to try to prevent dampness as, although there’s no doubt that such materials will absorb moisture from the air inside the motorhome, I believe it’s unrealistic to expect this to be worthwhile given the quite small amounts of ‘salt’ that are suggested be employed.