tonyg3nwl Posted November 22, 2017 Share Posted November 22, 2017 In view of the current row going on about diesel pollution, scrappage etc, is there any possibility of engine changes back to a petrol type for us motorhomers. Has anyone any views.. Technically it must be possible, but at what complications and cost, . tonyg3nwl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brock Posted November 22, 2017 Share Posted November 22, 2017 At the risk of a wrong turn down memory lane, when I bought my first new motorhome in 1996, I had the choice of a 2.0 petrol or 2.5 diesel. Petrol consumption was in the low 20s whilst diesel was in the high 20s. Quite a few people bought the petrol version which I think was a bit cheaper. By my second motorhome in 1998, the 2.5 diesel turbo was in and whilst petrol and a straight diesel were still an option, most sales were the turbo diesel. By 2001, almost all UK motorhomes and the bigger German motorhomes were 2.5TD. European imports from the sunnier climes still came with a 1.9td option but I don't recall anyone offering petrol. I think switching from 3300kg chassis to 3500kg and the natural desire for manufacturers to rationalise their products encouraged the move to standard 2.5Td. Moving to petrol would not be a surprise or impossible at reasonable cost but I expect the alternative fuels might be a longer term bet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 22, 2017 Share Posted November 22, 2017 Forlorn hope, I think, Tony. Today's vehicles are basically a bunch of distributed computers with a power train attached. I'm assuming you wouldn't contemplate buying a brand new power train for your van (assuming such a unit exists), so you'd almost certainly be driven (pardon!) to buying from a breaker. You'd then need to adapt the power train to fit the engine bay mountings and to align its drive shafts to the existing hubs. All this would have to fit within the existing bodywork, and then be adapted so that things like the gear change and other mechanical linkages worked. Then you have to adapt/re-program the various computers to feed intelligible signals from things like the accelerator pedal to the throttle control. In the end you'd end up having to replace half (or more!) of the electronics just to get the mechanical bits to understand what you're trying to get them to do. After all that, and a lot of time and money, you'd still have a vehicle with the same ageing body you started off with. I think it would probably take so long to achieve (even assuming it could be done) that the next generation of all electric motorhomes would be entering the market just as you finished, meaning your by now very expensive petrol motorhome would suffer a collapse in second hand value, while being subjected to sharply increased VED aimed at dissuading the public from buying petrol vehicles! But hey, don't let me put you off! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyg3nwl Posted November 22, 2017 Author Share Posted November 22, 2017 Thanks for the comments, Brian. I have to admit that at my age, I wont be around to see any seriously viable electric powered motorhomes, capable of 1000 mile journeys..or even 100 miles between recharges. They, whoever they are, are completely ignoring the pollution created and destruction of environment caused by the exploitation of natural resources to create the all singing all dancing electric pollution free vehicles, be it motorhomes or or even cars. basic rules of physics demonstrates that energy can neither be generated nor destroyed.. it can only be transformed from one form to another..eg from kinetic to potential, or electric to chemical. I certainly dont claim to have the engineering skills to change my own vehicle to a different propulsion system, so I will just continue to use it as it is. Politicians will continue to change their minds, almost as frequently as they change their underware.. sack the lot. tonyg3nwl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceM Posted November 22, 2017 Share Posted November 22, 2017 I’m note sure we’d ever wish to switch. Diesel is likely to remain the fuel of choice for haulage for the foreseeable future and there are no plans to ban diesel vehicles on UK roads. VED on diesel cars may be increased however I suspect that this is more an ‘morally defensible’ way to raise tax revenue rather than a policy sufficient to cause people to go to the expense of changing their vehicle from diesel to petrol or even replacing their vehicle for that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidmac Posted November 22, 2017 Share Posted November 22, 2017 Hi Tesla have said they are putting an all electric artic lorry into production which will have a 500 mile range in 2-3 years time (might be 10 or never). Win euromillions on a big draw and you could get someone to convert it for you. Perhaps a bit more of a reality Daimler Benz are to offer all their vans with all electric power trains,starting with the Vito second half of next year and then a new Sprinter model later. Wether the range and price will suit motorhomes we shall have to wait and see. Regards David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ocsid Posted November 22, 2017 Share Posted November 22, 2017 Purely a side thought but will the advent of EV motorhomes bring with it carrying a pair of long poles with crocodile clips, much like I remember with trams, for the wild camper? ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted November 22, 2017 Share Posted November 22, 2017 At the moment there's a lot of talk about what is being brought out in EV and how good it will be, but when you look at what's available right now, very little at an affordable price. Gf was driving a Renault EV fleet car t'other week, she was well impressed, but when we looked at costings it just doesn't work out for us with the relatively high initial price plus having to hire the batteries. Also the tech doesn't seem to have advanced much in the past few years, she drove a similar Renault EV some years ago and the newer one whilst better is not ground brakingly so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laika.brian Posted November 22, 2017 Share Posted November 22, 2017 Hydrogen fuelled vehicles might yet become part of the mix for this type of power requirement, better range than EV and fuel storage capacity would determine total range much like todays fossil fuel units. Refuelling stations are required but then so charging points, only takes short time to refuel hydrogen compared to recharging EV , maybe stations much like today would work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keninpalamos Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 Laika.brian - 2017-11-22 10:15 PM Hydrogen fuelled vehicles might yet become part of the mix for this type of power requirement, better range than EV and fuel storage capacity would determine total range much like todays fossil fuel units. Refuelling stations are required but then so charging points, only takes short time to refuel hydrogen compared to recharging EV , maybe stations much like today would work. I suggested hydrogen as a fuel on a similar thread not that long ago and was berated for it and called a nit wit..... or was it because I suggested lithium crystals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 tonyg3nwl - 2017-11-22 5:36 PM In view of the current row going on about diesel pollution, scrappage etc, is there any possibility of engine changes back to a petrol type for us motorhomers. Has anyone any views.. Technically it must be possible, but at what complications and cost, . tonyg3nwl Speaking from experience ;-) ......... Anything that has a computer ie ECU will be seriously complicated 8-) ....... But for those who have Mk 5 Transits and earlier then the change to petrol is pretty straight forward ;-) ........ Although not without its pitfalls 8-) ........ If I were to do it again then I'd have the donor engine professionally rebuilt to a "As new" condition, and replace all the ancillaries B-) ....... Still contemplating a V6 for old Horace :D ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 pelmetman - 2017-11-23 8:48 AM Speaking from experience ;-) ......... Anything that has a computer ie ECU will be seriously complicated 8-) ....... But for those who have Mk 5 Transits and earlier then the change to petrol is pretty straight forward ;-) ........ Although not without its pitfalls 8-) ........ If I were to do it again then I'd have the donor engine professionally rebuilt to a "As new" condition, and replace all the ancillaries B-) ....... Still contemplating a V6 for old Horace :D ....... Funny enough fitting the latest Ecoboost engine to Horace would be fairly straight forward, although a bit expensive. With up to 647bhp on tap for the production engine might have to strap the body down a bit better. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 colin - 2017-11-23 9:16 AM pelmetman - 2017-11-23 8:48 AM Speaking from experience ;-) ......... Anything that has a computer ie ECU will be seriously complicated 8-) ....... But for those who have Mk 5 Transits and earlier then the change to petrol is pretty straight forward ;-) ........ Although not without its pitfalls 8-) ........ If I were to do it again then I'd have the donor engine professionally rebuilt to a "As new" condition, and replace all the ancillaries B-) ....... Still contemplating a V6 for old Horace :D ....... Funny enough fitting the latest Ecoboost engine to Horace would be fairly straight forward, although a bit expensive. With up to 647bhp on tap for the production engine might have to strap the body down a bit better. :D Remember I'm a Luddite.......so if its got a computer (spit) I ain't interested 8-) ....... I do like the Essex V6 though B-) .......Plenty of torque & poke :D ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 When I ran Atlantic Motorhomes we specialised in fitting 'modern' Ford engines into Citroen H vans to replace the unreliable and outdated engines that started their design life in 1936. Adapting the Ford Petrol engine to the existing gearbox was quite straightforward. The engine most replaced by our Ford kit was the Indenor 1.9 Diesel as first used in the Peugeot's of the sixties. The guys who carried on the work after I folded the company are working on an even more modern Ford Petrol Engine replacement that is Fuel injected, the Zetec. Obviously it is Computer controlled but there are now a few companies around creating Fuel injection electronic modules that can be programmed on a Laptop for the optimum power band you want for your spec of engine from 130bhp right up to 220bhp. We fitted a Pinto 2.1 Rally spec for the Wheeler Dealers TV show. Although they then removed it and pretended to fit it live on the show. We did the entire restoration from Gearbox to electrics, if you see the show look carefully at how they have screened off the rear of the van to hide the fact that we had already lined it (with every part numbered like a giant jigsaw) so Ed could dismantle it and 'Fit it live'. It is all possible if the incentive is there to spend the money.. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigparkie Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 The oil pumpl drive is the weak link .?? The economy is already crashed.?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 I am a bit peeved that i prepared a lengthy discussion piece for MMM earlier this year that was supposed to get published but does not appear to have been, that covered this topic in some depth. To cut a very long story short; the only viable option that is available now is Compressed Natural Gas (CNG). CNG engines are modified diesel engines and Fiat/Iveco have been selling them for over 10 years. CNG is not currently offered in the UK by Fiat but Iveco does. Fiat supplies CNG vehicles under the 'Natural Power' banner in Europe. The installations are heavier than those for Diesel due to the increased weight of the gas tanks, so this is only really going to be viable for motorhomes at the higher GVW's The advantages over Diesel are enormous however with virtually no tailpipe emissions and no particulates. The fuel is currently a good deal cheaper than Diesel and fuel economy is not far behind Diesel either. The only problem is the weight. Purchase costs are higher but nowhere near as high as electric or hybrid drivetrains. In the future I see CNG/Electric hybrid (or range extender) being the way forward for vans and therefore motorhomes but this will need some legislation changes regarding the maximum GVW's of such vehicles and believe it or not; this is on the way too! The 3500kg limit before speed limiters, driving licence restrictions and tachographs will soon be lifted to something like 4200kg for 'alternative fuel vehicles' to give them a chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 Nick, CNG wouldn't work in Motorhomes, there would be too many calls to the RAC saying, " I have turned off the Gas for safety before I drive away, and now the van won't start". :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 Isn't CNG much more hazardous than LPG when being stored and transported? I remember reading something about CNG tanker vessels constituting a special high risk at sea some years ago. Does anyone know if Fiat CNG vehicles have entered service in Europe (if not yet in UK) and have any been sold as motorhomes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyg3nwl Posted November 23, 2017 Author Share Posted November 23, 2017 Forgive me, but is CNG that which is extracted by fracking, and associated as yet unknown damage to tne environment. I am thinking take all the gas out, break up the rocks in the process, wont that lead to sinkholes in the future ? just a thought... tonyg3nwl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 euroserv - 2017-11-23 10:12 AM ...The advantages over Diesel are enormous however with virtually no tailpipe emissions and no particulates... The CNG system fitted to Ducato “Natural Power”models is described here http://gazeo.com/up-to-date/reportages-interviews-road-tests/road-tests/Fiat-Ducato-Natural-Power-natural-it-is,report,7449.html Although (obviously) there will be no diesel-particulates emerging from the tailpipe, that does not mean that the vehicle will be ‘super green’ and its emissions will be zero. This will be evident from the CO2 figures quoted on this webpage http://www.cngas.co.uk/cngvehicles.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 The key difference between LPG and CNG is that CNG is not liquified when stored and so larger tanks storing at a higher pressure are necessary, hence the substantial extra weight of a CNG vehicle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 StuartO - 2017-11-23 12:06 PM The key difference between LPG and CNG is that CNG is not liquified when stored and so larger tanks storing at a higher pressure are necessary, hence the substantial extra weight of a CNG vehicle. Another key difference between this and the current Motorhome chassis is that the engine is a 3 litre petrol unit and can be run for 100km on Petrol when the gas runs out. Which brings us back to the original question, potentially the Petrol engine would be a retrofit option (maybe courtesy of a breakers yard in Poland?) into a current Diesel with the 6 speed box? Would be still be quite a task though. Sorry Pelmetman, not a V6, but a four cylinder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 pelmetman - 2017-11-23 9:38 AM colin - 2017-11-23 9:16 AM pelmetman - 2017-11-23 8:48 AM Speaking from experience ;-) ......... Anything that has a computer ie ECU will be seriously complicated 8-) ....... But for those who have Mk 5 Transits and earlier then the change to petrol is pretty straight forward ;-) ........ Although not without its pitfalls 8-) ........ If I were to do it again then I'd have the donor engine professionally rebuilt to a "As new" condition, and replace all the ancillaries B-) ....... Still contemplating a V6 for old Horace :D ....... Funny enough fitting the latest Ecoboost engine to Horace would be fairly straight forward, although a bit expensive. With up to 647bhp on tap for the production engine might have to strap the body down a bit better. :D Remember I'm a Luddite.......so if its got a computer (spit) I ain't interested 8-) ....... I do like the Essex V6 though B-) .......Plenty of torque & poke :D ...... The thing I still remember of our old works V6 tranny, is it being slow, noisy, and consuming large quantities of petrol. We've still got the box body, IIRC rest went to Africa. Mind you it was still better than the Citroen H van we had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archiesgrandad Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 To Pelmetman, if your really fancy a transplant think Rover V8, even better than the Ford. With regard to the fuel of the future, this has been under consideration by motor manufacturers for decades, since Ralph Nader and his campaign. Back in the 70s, which is when I left the motor industry, the thought was that the future would probably not be electric because no-one could foresee the technology for batteries that can be charged quickly and then be run flat and charged quickly again. I'm not an expert but I suspect modern batteries still cannot do that. Before the catalytic converter manufacturers were looking at a new generation of motors, which were basically ultra high compression petrol engines that could produce high power outputs with good fuel consumption and low emissions, but they were over-ruled by the powers that be and the vested interests, ably supported by the loonies at Greenpeace. Only now are manufacturers building these super petrol engines, and you find them in a number of small cars, as an example the current Skoda Fabia with the 1200cc petrol engine has 140 bhp with good torque and diesel engine fuel economy. More likely will be a move to petrol/electric power. The most fuel efficient and clean running engine is a fixed speed petrol engine optimised to run at constant speed, and if that were coupled to a generator to charge a reasonable bank of batteries, then current technology would give us a vehicle with minimal polution and exceptional fuel economy, that would be able to underatke the type of journeys that we currently can without frequent fuel stops or re-charging sessions. AGD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 Archiesgrandad - 2017-11-23 3:48 PM To Pelmetman, if your really fancy a transplant think Rover V8, even better than the Ford. AGD Have to say that is another option I would consider ;-) ....... I know of Transits that have had various different engines retro fitted including Jaguar engines and even one from a Rolls Royce 8-) ....... That's what I like about old Trannies :D .......They're very accommodating B-) ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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