Is it too heavy?

[Leggy]

We've just ordered a new Bailey Pagent 6 Bretagne. But am a bit nervous that maybe it's too heavy for the car. Oicking up 26th Jan.

It's MRO is 1195kg, MTPLM is 1420kg

We have an Audi A4 avant with kerb weight 1495kg.

If we hardly put anything in the caravan but load the car up, alongwith 4 people in the car I've been told it will be OK.

Should I be worried?

[Guest Sally Pepper]

Hi Leggy,

 

In an ideal world, you'd want a heavier towcar than the Audi, which using the 85% guideline, shouldn't be towing more than a 'van with an MTPLM of 1270.

However, if you are an experienced caravanner and load the van sensibly, you are still under the 100 per cent guideline (i.e. the caravan should not exceed the kerbweight of the car.

If you are new to this game, I would strongly recommend that you attend a towing course with one of the two clubs before undertaking any fully laden towing.

 

Happy towing

 

Mark

 

[Bristles]

Hi Eagleyes , Your comment about the caravan not being heavier than the car is strictly speaking debateable! the caravan without hesitation can be heavier than the car, the deciding factor is the categories which appear on your driving licence. If you have catergory 'B' on your licence then your statement is true also provided that the total outfit does not exceed 3.5 tons. However, if your entitlement is 'B+1' then your total outfit permissable is about 8.25 tons so you can legally tow in excess of 100% no problem. If you only have 'B' entitlement then you must take a seperate test to gain 'B+1' entitlement in order to exceed the'B' catergory regulations. The major drawback of towing a caravan which is heavier than the car is apparent especially if you have to stop on a steep incline and then pull away, traffic lights, stop signs etc. Furthermore, your Audi A4 will have a maximum towing figure, look in your hand book or consult the manufacturer to confirm the maximum weight that the car is capable of towing and you MUST bear in mind that what ever weight you put in the Audi MUST be deducted from the manufacturers specified figure, this also includes other people because the towing figure is always based on a vehicle as it comes out of the showroom with a full tank of fuel and the driver only. So if there are other passengers or items in the trunk this will lower the manufacturers figure by what ever weight you add to the vehicle. Hope that this is of some help, regards, Bristles.

[Derek Uzzell]

Bristles: I think you mean driving-licence category B + E (Category B + 1 does not exist).

 

Website www.direct.gov.uk carries masses of motoring regulation information (including advice on caravan/trailer towing) and refers to the B + E Category as follows:

 

"Category B+E allows vehicles up to 3.5 tonnes MAM to be combined with trailers in excess of 750kgs MAM. In order to gain this entitlement new category B licence holders have to pass a further practical test for category B+E. There is no category B+E theory test. For driver licensing purposes there are no vehicle/trailer weight ratio limits for category B+E."

 

In principle then, if you've got the B + E category on your licence, it appears you would be entitled (driving-licence-wise) to attempt to tow a Conqueror tank behind a Fiat Panda (though definitely not vice versa!!). In practice, of course, it's going to be the maximum legally authorised 'train' and 'trailer' limits of the towing vehicle that would be the show-stopper. I vaguely recall someone telling me that Land Rovers had train/trailer limits that allowed the trailer's overall weight to exceed considerably the Land Rover's MTPLM, so it's possible other 4 x 4s have a similar legally authorised capability.

 

The specific 8250kg overall limit you mention applies to the current C1 licence category or the 'old' C1 + E category held by people who passed a car test prior to 1997.

 

Driving licence regulations are complex nowadays, but the DVLA leaflet D100 available from Post Offices is reasonably easy to follow, plus there's plenty more good stuff on the Web.

[Bristles]

Hi Derek Uzzell, Sorry you are right, I was reffering to B+E. The main point was to state that you can tow at more than 100%, the caravan can be heavier than the towing vehicle depending on one's licence catergories. The 85% myth is only a guideline and a figure that the media want to BRAINWASH caravanners into believing should be, it doesn't exist anywhere else in the world

[Derek Uzzell]

Bristles: Guidelines are invariably provided for a good reason. I've never towed a caravan during my 45 years of driving and probably never shall. However, the biggest motoring accident I've had began by someone temporarily losing control of a very large caravan being towed behind a very small van. The end result was 2 vehicles seriously damaged and one driver (not me) prosecuted, fined and subsequently bankrupted. Most irking was the fact that the idiot who initiated the accident miraculously managed to regain control (by bouncing off the roadside verges) and disappeared over the horizon never to be seen again.

 

I find it startling that you believe the 85% recommendation is some sort of media campaign when the UK caravan clubs are recommending it for new caravanners. As far as I'm concerned, whoever is doing the 'brainwashing' then good luck to them. I've seen the effect of heavy caravan + light car and it wasn't pretty.

[Petesar]

If you look at the vin plate on the car it has the manufaturers design weight fot your vehicle.

 

Gross vehicle weight (GVW)

Gross train weight (GTW)

Axle 1 maximum weight

Axle 2 maximum weight

I have a passat tdi which has a GTW of 3370 kg, that is maximum weight permitted including caravan, bikes, tables, awning, and everything in the car

do not be confused by the 85% as this is a guideline only :->

[Bristles]

Derek Uzzell: Towing at 100% or over is not the problem! it's the driver behind the wheel that is irresponsible. It doesn't mean to say that if one adopted the guideline and towed at 85%, and that is all it is, a guideline, that it solves any future problems and will prevent any possible accident ever after. Caravan Club or no Caravan Club, 85% does not, and never will be an option for a driver's stupidity. I have towed at over 100% since 1970 and have never ever had any problem whatsoever, however, I have seen many a pratt well within the 85% and towing like a complete idiot so we are back to the fact that problems largely occur because of direct driver error and not through the outfit which everyone is so quick to condemn!

[Petesar]

if you tow at over 100% the driver is irrisponsible if he exceeds the manufacturers gross train weight.

if you are unfortunate and have an accident your insurance company may withdraw cover and if the police are involved you may be prosecuted.

stick to the manufacturers maximum as shown on the vin plate :-S

[Derek Uzzell]

Bristles: This thread began as a straightforward request for advice on whether a particular car and caravan could be safely matched weight-wise. Mark Sutcliffe's initial reply mentioned 85% and 100% caravan-to-car weight ratios only as 'guidelines' and, as Andy Legg didn't say whether or not he was new to caravanning, suggested towing training courses as an option. I'm confident most caravanners would feel that "Which Caravan"'s editor answered the question adequately.

 

As a veteran caravanner you will be well aware that safe and legal towing involves far more than correct driving licence categories or weight ratios. The Caravan Club's handbook takes 6 pages to cover the "Towing Code" and the subject can only be nibbled at on an internet forum. That you've been able to tow at 'over 100%' since 1970 without incident doesn't mean that novice caravanners should be encouraged to do the same. A Physics doctorate isn't necessary to appreciate that the heavier a trailer is in relation to the towing vehicle the more careful and experienced the driver needs to be. And I doubt if anyone requires reminding that there are plenty of incompetent drivers about. However, if you are uncomfortable with 85% and 100% guidelines for respectively caravanning newcomers and as a top-limit recommendation, what would you suggest instead?

 

(For General Consumption: For those without a Caravan Club handbook, website www.ntta.co.uk provides a useful overview on towing regulations and good practice.)

[Bristles]

Derek Uzzell: " However, if you are uncomfortable with 85% and 100% guidelines for respectively caravanning newcomers and as a top-limit recommendation, what would you suggest instead?"

 

Quite simply, up to the vehicle manufacturers legal maximum. My 4x4 weighs approximately 1524kg's, the manufacturer's legal maximum towing limit is 1800kg's. Case closed.

[Brian Kirby]

Bristles - 2007-01-24 7:38 PM Derek Uzzell: Towing at 100% or over is not the problem! it's the driver behind the wheel that is irresponsible. It doesn't mean to say that if one adopted the guideline and towed at 85%, and that is all it is, a guideline, that it solves any future problems and will prevent any possible accident ever after. Caravan Club or no Caravan Club, 85% does not, and never will be an option for a driver's stupidity. I have towed at over 100% since 1970 and have never ever had any problem whatsoever, however, I have seen many a pratt well within the 85% and towing like a complete idiot so we are back to the fact that problems largely occur because of direct driver error and not through the outfit which everyone is so quick to condemn!

Chloe

Can you explain what you see as the difference between safe towing, and towing like a complete idiot?

I completely accept that merely observing a guideline doesn't make anything safe, or guarantee accidents can't happen.

However, if one rejects "normally accepted" guidelines, I am interested in how one is supposed to know what makes good towing practice.  What advice would you give to people, generally, about matching car to caravan?

For example, the manufacturer's limit on trailer weight is, I believe, little more than the trailer weight with which the towcar can pull away up a 1 in 6 hill.  This gives no consideration to trailer stability, yet instability is one of the biggest causes of caravanning accidents.  It therefore seems one needs a bit more than just the manufacturers trailer weight limit when selecting the right towcar/caravan combination.

Question is, what?

[Derek Uzzell]

http://www.germany-tourism.co.uk/EGB/practical_information/camping_10326.htm provides information on revisions to German speed limits for caravanners using autobahns. It's interesting to note that the regulations include restrictions on outfit weight ratios.

[GeorgeB]

Leggy,

 

The weight that you quote for your car is WRONG, I know its whats quoted by Towsure etc. but its the weight, as supplied by Audi Germany, of a 1.6 manual with absolutely no options fitted.

 

My own A4 Avant, with factory fitted towing equipment weighs 1618 kg unladen.

 

Your only way to find its kerbside weight is to either look inside the front cover of your service book, bottom line, if it begins with a 4 digit number, thats its unladen weight (some do have this printed, some don't, if its not there then or applies) or Fill the car with fuel, take out all the "extras" that you usually carry around & get it weighed on the nearest public weighbridge & ask for the certified weight certificate.

 

hope this helps

[Leggy]

George, thanks I'll check this out. Mines the 2.0 tdi as well.

[CliveH]

Can I add something to the "mix" re car insurance! - I know that the 85% rule is a "rule of thumb" - but as other posters on here have said - it is not media hype, it is a safety guide adhered to by the two main caravan clubs.

 

Some car insurers will state that they will not insure you if your outfit exceeds the 85%. Others do not seem to care.

 

But some will tell you nothing and then tell you that you are NOT COVERRED for the accident you have just had whilst towing.

 

My advice as someone who knows - tell your insurance company what you tow and get it in writing that they acknowledge this. Do not rely on telling them by phone as in my experience such info rarely gets put on your file.

 

Document everything and keep a small camera with you to take pictures if you have an accident. One of my clients was able to trace a witness because she took a picture of the scene which included the witness’s car registration.

 

The Police contacted her and what could have been a 50;50 claim was resolved to be a 100% blame to the other party by the witness' statement.

 

This meant she kept her NCB and her premiums low!

 

[Poppy]

I don't fully understand the legalities although I thought that towing over 100% was illegal.Safety and common sense are what counts and the 85% guidline is ther for a purpose. Its not fun struggling up steep hill or cowering in terror every time a lorry overtakes and accidents aren't fun either. I have towed a variety of vans with a variety of cars in Britain and Europe and say stick to the 85%. Its best, its safest, its the most comfortable, its the most fun. Yes I do realize a safe driver with a 100% match is better than an idiot with an 85%. I have never had an accident towing.

[Guest Syd]

I have towed with in excess of the 100% mentioned here with our caravan but now I have a vehicle that is just on the 80% guideline and I will be the first to admit that it feels safer, it is a lot less demanding, and much more pleasure to drive.

I am also told by people who have followed me in both vehicles that it LOOKS a lot safer too.

Less sway has to be better for everyone in addition it is nicer to open the caravan door and be able to walk straight in rather than being met by a tidal wave of possessions that have been thrown out of cupboards by the swaying.

 

Don't like giving "experts" any praise at all but this time they are un-doubtedly right

[hymer634]

Take a look at :

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdeUgrnzSNk

 

to see what could go wrong.

 

Alan

[Guest Syd]

That's me in France !!

[Brian Kirby]

Poppy - 2007-03-24 6:41 PM I don't fully understand the legalities although I thought that towing over 100% was illegal.Safety and common sense are what counts and the 85% guidline is ther for a purpose. Its not fun struggling up steep hill or cowering in terror every time a lorry overtakes and accidents aren't fun either. I have towed a variety of vans with a variety of cars in Britain and Europe and say stick to the 85%. Its best, its safest, its the most comfortable, its the most fun. Yes I do realize a safe driver with a 100% match is better than an idiot with an 85%. I have never had an accident towing.

Elizabeth

The legalities are not really in dispute.  If the laden weight of the trailer, plus the laden weight of the car, do not exceed the car's stated gross train weight (but subject to the towbar limits - see below), the combination is legal.  Whether a person can then drive it legally, depends on what is on their driving license.

Whether a car will struggle up a hill with a trailer attached will depend mainly upon the power of the engine and the gearing of the car, plus whether the driver changes down in time!  However, to tow a heavy trailer a more powerful engine is generally better, so long as that power is delivered in the right way.  Smaller engines tuned to deliver high HP at high revs are generally not so much use as larger engines delivering the same HP at a lower state of tune and at lower revs.

What the 85% rule is about, however, is the ability of the car to maintain control over the caravan under most driving conditions.  The ratio is a rule of thumb and observing it no more guarantees stability that ignoring it guarantees instability.  It is based on research carried out at the Motor Industry Research Association test track in Crowthorne, Berks, largely sponsored by the Crarvan Club and conducted by, I think, Bristol University.  Various combinations of cars and caravans were driven at various speeds around the track, and the points at which the combinations showed signs of instability were recorded and analysed.  One absolute was that as speed rose, instability appeared, though sometimes at speeds no sane person would ever contemplate!  The main point to emerge was that in the great majority of cases, provided two simple rules were observed, most car/trailer combinations would remain stable under most road conditions at all UK legal driving speeds.

These rules were:

1 That the actual laden weight of the trailer should not exceed 85% of the kerbweight of the tow vehicle, and

2 That at least 7% of the laden weight of the trailer should bear down onto the towball when static on level ground (normally referred to as the noseweight).

The latter is significant for maintaining general stability on the move, the former for being able to control instability should it arise.  The most dangerous aspect of towing a trailer is when negotiating a fast downhill bend, or when being buffeted by crosswinds or HGV slipstreams under similar conditions.  It is here that the trailer is most likely to begin to snake.  Because the vehicles are travelling downhill, and because braking tends to exacerbate the snake, regaining control under these conditions is particularly difficult.

It is legal to tow at up to 80 MPH in France, and it is interesting that the French tend to reccomend 10% noseweight based on their experience.

The final consideration is matching the caravan to the tow vehicle's noseweight limit.  All cars are now EC Type approved, and must be fitted with type approved towbars.  These will have two weight restrictions, a drawbar weight limit and a downforce limit.  Irrespective of what may be permitted by the tow vehicle's gross train weight limit, the drawbar limit (that is the actual laden weight of the trailer) must not be exceeded. 

Downforce (noseweight) limits tend to vary between 50 and 100Kg.  For UK speed limits, therefore, divide the noseweight limit of the towbar by 7, and then multiply the result by 100: that will give the heaviest trailer you should tow (subject to not exceeding any lower limit elsewhere) if your trailer is to retain reasonable stability, and will often prove the most restrictive limit. 

It is surprising how many quite large, relatively heavy, cars have restrictive noseweight limits, and how often this important calculation is forgotten.  I'll almost guarantee that no caravan salesman will ever do it, yet it is, in terms of safety and stability, the most important calculation of all!

[Guest Syd]

Quote Brian

"The latter is significant for maintaining general stability on the move, the former for being able to control instability should it arise. The most dangerous aspect of towing a trailer is when negotiating a fast downhill bend, or when being buffeted by crosswinds or HGV slipstreams under similar conditions. It is here that the trailer is most likely to begin to snake. Because the vehicles are travelling downhill, and because braking tends to exacerbate the snake, regaining control under these conditions is particularly difficult."

 

Hi Brian

Thanks for all of that

One point that I am pondering is the

"The most dangerous aspect of towing a trailer is when negotiating a fast downhill bend, or when being buffeted by crosswinds or HGV slipstreams under similar conditions. It is here that the trailer is most likely to begin to snake. Because the vehicles are travelling downhill, and because braking tends to exacerbate the snake"

 

I very seldom have any snaking at all but wonder just what one "should" do when snaking does occur, I usuall simply lift my foot off the throttle and almost immediately it disappear's. I find that most of any weaving that occurs in this country is caused by the tramlines in the road caused by heavy lorries constantly running in the same position in the lanes, the tramlines fit my caravan but not my Sedona so the Sedona will "jump" form one track to the other causing the caravan to weave rather than snake but probably would develop into a snake if I didn't ease off a bit.

 

Because of this tramlining effect from lorries, whenever I am in the inside lane in the UK I tend to drive more towards the right hand side of the lane, this makes the Sedona miss the tramlines but unfortumately the caravan is then running down the lane dividing white line

 

I very seldom overtake when going down any steep hill though

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Hello Syd

The answer, it seems, is to do exactly as you do, and lift off.  This works fine on the flat, where it is the generally recommended remedy.  However, on downhill motorway stretches, such as for example the M6 Southbound on Shap, where there is a long downgrade with long sweeping bends, lifting off has little impact on your speed when there's a ton or more of caravan joining the fun!  It is generallay recommended that the caravan should not "push" the towcar, so the only remedy is to slow down before the downgrade, and then to hold speed below the level at which the van begins to sway, by using a very light foot on the brakes.  Just dropping down one gear may work, but if that begins to slow you more and more, I think very light occasional braking is better.  If you go too slowly all the trucks will start overtaking you, so their slipstreams will just make matters worse. 

You should be able to maintain around 55-60 MPH, without instability, under these conditions.  If you can't, either the van is a bad match for the car, or the van load needs adjusting to put more of it low, and to the front of the axle/s. 

End kitchen layouts are often difficult, because of the weight at the back.  Adding more weight at the front will redress the noseweight issue, but will create a "dumbar" effect, with loads at the extreme ends trying to rotate around the axle.  This increases the tendency to sway.  The key here is to take load from both the kitchen and the front, and transfer it to the middle, where it needs to be stabilised so that it can't slide around.  Centre kitchens make this easier.

It seems the tramlines are a problem for everything.  Even our local buses weave around on them!  Your approach seems best; stay to the offside of the tramlines so far as possible, which will put the van almost on the o/s lane marker, and if you see anything big (HGV, coach etc) coming to overtake, hold your line until they are close to the rear of the van, and then work back across the tramlines to the extreme nearside of your lane as they pass, with the van now almost running down the road edge marker (subject to road condition, of course!).  Once they've passed, back to where you were.  That way, you open up a gap between you and the overtaking vehicle, which reduces the buffeting the van takes from the slipstream.

Overtaking down steep hills?  Well, what's steep, and what are you overtaking?  In principle it's suicide, but if the road is straight and the vehicle you catch up is a tractor and trailer travelling at 15 MPH - and there are no field/farm entrances on the right - why not?  On a 1 in 4, however (not many straight ones of these!), probably better not!  :-)

[Bill]

I’m a complete outsider – I’ve never even owned a caravan, nor any other kind of trailer for that matter – but I am curious about the snaking problem and about the 85% limit.

 

Snaking.

Looking at it from first principles it seems to me that all that is needed is some sort of additional control so that the tow-car driver could apply the caravan’s brakes independently of the tow-car’s brakes. If, at the same time as braking the caravan, he gently accelerated the tow-car, it seems to me that it must come straight.

 

It sounds so obvious that I must be missing something. What is it?

 

 

85% Limit.

Does this guide/rule/whatever also apply to 4-wheel caravans? By 4-wheel I do NOT mean a double-axle, but one with a wheel at each corner, and the front wheels steered via the tow-bar. In effect, a motorhome with the engine and gearbox removed.

 

This too sounds so obvious that I must be missing something. Again, what is it?

 

 

 

[colin]

Bill

There's a good reason caravans( or trailers) arn't made like this, they are close on impossible to reverse compared to the normal wheels in the middle jobs. I have reversed a 'trailer' with steering like you suggest several times, once it ended up where I wanted it.

Oh and the one's I've driven on road have been more unstable under braking, but these have been old farm trailers.