flyboyprowler Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 We are considering under floor heating in our new van. We were at a friends house over the weekend and they have it in their garden room floor, and very nice it was! I assume it runs in parallel with the Alde heating system, but can it be run independently, is it effective, and is it worth fitting. There is very little information from the manufacturer (N & B) so I throw it out to our knowledgable community. Ainsley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 There are two kinds, Ainsley, water, and electrical. You'd need to find out which is on offer. The water based systems merely (usually) divert some of the hot water from the boiler through a network of tubes laid in, or onto, the "false" floor to warm the floor. Electrical systems achieve the same end through a heated mat laid on top of the false floor. Floor coverings are then laid over the pipes/mat as usual. So, you get a warm floor. The electrical variety will be liable to "eat" electricity, and will only be viable when on EHU. However, if your new van is to have Aldi water based heating, I would imagine that the pipework for that will be run within the double floor, and that the convector coils that supply warmed air into the van will also be within the double floor, beneath grilles allowing the warmed air to rise into the van. That implies other grilles to allow the cooling air back into the double floor void, to be warmed again and re-circulated. The floor insulation thus needs to go into the "structural" floor beneath the void, and not into the false floor. If this is done, you will get a degree of underfloor heating as a consequence of this circulation of warmed air even with the "normal" Alde system. This will take the chill off the floor, but will not replicate a full underfloor heating system. I can't comment on the effectiveness of underfloor heating systems in vans, but I can to some extent on their use in buildings. The main advantage is that they provide an even spread of warmth compared to radiator based systems. Their disadvantages are in added complexity, in the complications that arise in dealing with leaks, plus the fact that some people find the floor temperature needed to adequately warm the space is uncomfortably hot. Their best use is generally for low level "background" heat, supplemented by radiators as and when required to "top-up" for comfort. Unless you intend delving into the colder parts of Europe in winter, I'd think the added complexity and cost may outweigh the relatively small advantages in terms of comfort. Having said that, much would depend on how the system would be installed into your van, and how much reliance is placed on the underfloor element in maintaining comfort. Finally, I'd add that because they are relatively low temperature systems, they have a slow warm-up time, so that they deliver their best when left running pretty much continually. This may not be so true in a motorhome, as the masses that have to be heated are considerably less than would be normal in buildings, but there will still be a period while the mats/pipe network lose heat into the false floor, before it is raised to the temperature of the mats/pipe network and begins to function as intended. In short, they are not ideal stop/start systems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 I think it works on alde wet heating and having a real not false double floor. In a technical double floor It his less. The real is the one sitting on a AL-Ko low frame where you have a 8 inch floor space or more fully heated. And fitted around whit radiators. Incuding the seats under the swivels, the cab floor, the dash board wnd screen. and the engine. A fan booster is also possible. Add electric spirals to your waste water tank and drain pipe you have camper for our winters. But your alde pump will run all the times eating gas. Or EHU. There are also high roof box type panel vans who have a small double floor. IN these vans you have a higher step in, but a flat foor whit the cab connection. On a high frame alko you have also a technical double floor as i have . On electric floor heating you need EHU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 flyboyprowler - 2018-02-12 10:36 AM We are considering under floor heating in our new van. We were at a friends house over the weekend and they have it in their garden room floor, and very nice it was! I assume it runs in parallel with the Alde heating system, but can it be run independently, is it effective, and is it worth fitting. There is very little information from the manufacturer (N & B) so I throw it out to our knowledgable community. Ainsley The N+B “Flair” brochure https://www.niesmann-bischoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/NB_Flair_Katalog_GB.pdf refers to the Alde heating system on Page 58, adding "Fully functional underfloor heating is available as an additional optional extra.” Dare I say this, but though it’s nice of you to say this forum is “a knowledgeable community”, when it comes to the technical specification of current-model £100K+ German A-class motorhomes, the chances are low that forum members will be in a position to advise on this sort of fine-detail enquiry. My initial ports of call would be Travelworld https://www.motorhomes.co.uk/about-us/ who ought to be able to advise, and/or the N+B UK Owners Club https://sites.google.com/site/nbukownersclub/home where you might find out not only what the underfloor heating option entails, but also get owner feedback on how well it works and whether or not owners consider it value for money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 I've never had a van with underfloor heating and maybe I am wrong but the whole concept of heating an underfloor area seems like only a tad less worse than heating the outside and in this application seems like a potentially expensive way of staying warm? Traditional space heating and thick fitted carpets with thick underlay (including floor level lockers) and block off all the draught points including a waist level thick curtain to shut the flow of cold air from the cab always worked well enough when we encountered very cold but then we didn't go away when it was bloomin freezing for long periods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyboyprowler Posted February 12, 2018 Author Share Posted February 12, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-02-12 1:23 P However, if your new van is to have Aldi water based heating, I would imagine that the pipework for that will be run within the double floor, and that the convector coils that supply warmed air into the van will also be within the double floor, beneath grilles allowing the warmed air to rise into the van. That implies other grilles to allow the cooling air back into the double floor void, to be warmed again and re-circulated. The floor insulation thus needs to go into the "structural" floor beneath the void, and not into the false floor. If this is done, you will get a degree of underfloor heating as a consequence of this circulation of warmed air even with the "normal" Alde system. This will take the chill off the floor, but will not replicate a full underfloor heating system. Unless you intend delving into the colder parts of Europe in winter, I'd think the added complexity and cost may outweigh the relatively small advantages in terms of comfort. Having said that, much would depend on how the system would be installed into your van, and how much reliance is placed on the underfloor element in maintaining comfort. Thank you Brian, and yes we will have the Alde system. There is a lack of information so I have asked for clarification on the system and its controllability. I would also like a separate thermostat for the system to be built in which should not be too difficult. We use our van a lot in the winter so feel we can justify the cost of having it fitted. The false floor is heated anyway, so with the extra bits it should be truly "toastie" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyboyprowler Posted February 12, 2018 Author Share Posted February 12, 2018 Derek Uzzell - 2018-02-12 4:41 PM flyboyprowler - 2018-02-12 10:36 AM We are considering under floor heating in our new van. We were at a friends house over the weekend and they have it in their garden room floor, and very nice it was! I assume it runs in parallel with the Alde heating system, but can it be run independently, is it effective, and is it worth fitting. There is very little information from the manufacturer (N & B) so I throw it out to our knowledgable community. Ainsley The N+B “Flair” brochure https://www.niesmann-bischoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/NB_Flair_Katalog_GB.pdf refers to the Alde heating system on Page 58, adding "Fully functional underfloor heating is available as an additional optional extra.” Dare I say this, but though it’s nice of you to say this forum is “a knowledgeable community”, when it comes to the technical specification of current-model £100K+ German A-class motorhomes, the chances are low that forum members will be in a position to advise on this sort of fine-detail enquiry. My initial ports of call would be Travelworld https://www.motorhomes.co.uk/about-us/ who ought to be able to advise, and/or the N+B UK Owners Club https://sites.google.com/site/nbukownersclub/home where you might find out not only what the underfloor heating option entails, but also get owner feedback on how well it works and whether or not owners consider it value for money. Yes thanks Derek, both have been contacted and now awaiting replies, one, so far, positive! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Den Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 With the Alde wet heating, it supplies radiators and underfloor heating. Like your Freind place, it’s first class. Our underfloor heating was in the kitchen area. It wasn’t a double floor MH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeithR Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 this alde underfloor heating is what we have on the bailey autograph (alko chassis). excellent but as has been said it can be very slow to heat up. i was advised that for speed i should use both gas and electric if possible, or gas. just using electric takes ages!!! of couirse, a lot depends on the power available on EHU. my control panel has 3 different kilowatt options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 The N+B brochure for “Flair” models (I assume flyboyprowler will be buying a “Flair”) says about the Alde heating system "Convector heaters in the double floor protect all the fittings from cold weather. The double floor also serves as a storage heater and gives off heat to the floor similar to underfloor heating. Fully functional underfloor heating is available as an additional optional extra.” The implication is that a Flair’s standard Alde-based heating system heats the space within the motorhome’s double floor (which is exactly what one would expect for a motorhome of the Flair type/specification/price) and that the OPTIONAL “fuly functional underfloor heating” is a separate feature. I’m sure that’s what flyboyprowler understands to be the case, and I’m guessing that the “fully functional underfloor heating” shows up as a discrete (and expensive) item on the N+B options list. (I vaguely recall Hymer S-models having ‘underfloor heating’ where water pipework was integrated into the floor itself. The reason I remember this is someone telling me of a modification being made to a Hymer S at an owner’s request and the person carrying out the task being unaware of there being pipes embedded in the floor. A hole was drilled in the floor, puncturing the pipework and there was a big repair bill as a consequence.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don636 Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 We just wear slippers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Den Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 With the Alde heating you should be offered engine in use heat generator. When you arrive at your destination all is crusty. It’s far superior to blown air heating. Myers blown is quicker. But it’s up a down temperature wise. Whereas the Alde line your home central heating is constant and very quiet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 14, 2018 Share Posted February 14, 2018 The original posting of this 2011 MHFacts thread http://forums.motorhomefacts.com/56-burstner-motorhomes/85330-how-do-you-rate-your-alde-heating.html is from the owner of a N+B Flair and begins: "Pick up my new van soon and it has Alde wet heating onboard and a heated floor, which I think is electric and has nothing to do with the Alde system.” It’s quite common for an Alde ‘wet’ heating system to include a heat-exchanger that will transfer heat from the motorhome motor’s cooling system to the Alde ‘circulating liquid’ and vice versa. It’s also (reasonably) common for cabling to be embedded within a motorhome floor’s upper surface so that the floor can be warmed when the vehicle is connected to a 230V power-supply. And (as I mentioned above) some expensive motorhomes (eg. Hymer and Concorde) have had water pipework running through the floor, not just within a double-floor cavity. A N+B “Flair” price-list is available on-line and (in the Optional Features section) is a reference to Option Code 79194 “Floor heating (also in the driver’s cab floor)” that weighs 5kg and is priced at €647(VAT ex). I suspect that this option involves electrical wiring within the floor’s surface, as described in this ancient forum thread as ‘foot warming’ http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Underfloor-Heating/4185/ The Alde heat-exchanger option is listed separately (6kg weight and €748 (VAT ex) and is said to be part of a “Great Britain Pack”. MMM magazine February 2018 issue had a 2-page article (Pages 124/125) about Neismann+Bischoff, mentioning that Travelworld is currently the only UK N+B agency. Travelworld SHOULD either know what the ‘floor heating’ option consists of, or be able to confirm this from N+B. There’s also a contact section on the N+B website. https://www.niesmann-bischoff.com/en/look-forward-call-e-mail/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyboyprowler Posted February 14, 2018 Author Share Posted February 14, 2018 Derek Uzzell - 2018-02-14 10:15 AM The original posting of this 2011 MHFacts thread http://forums.motorhomefacts.com/56-burstner-motorhomes/85330-how-do-you-rate-your-alde-heating.html is from the owner of a N+B Flair and begins: "Pick up my new van soon and it has Alde wet heating onboard and a heated floor, which I think is electric and has nothing to do with the Alde system.” It’s quite common for an Alde ‘wet’ heating system to include a heat-exchanger that will transfer heat from the motorhome motor’s cooling system to the Alde ‘circulating liquid’ and vice versa. It’s also (reasonably) common for cabling to be embedded within a motorhome floor’s upper surface so that the floor can be warmed when the vehicle is connected to a 230V power-supply. And (as I mentioned above) some expensive motorhomes (eg. Hymer and Concorde) have had water pipework running through the floor, not just within a double-floor cavity. A N+B “Flair” price-list is available on-line and (in the Optional Features section) is a reference to Option Code 79194 “Floor heating (also in the driver’s cab floor)” that weighs 5kg and is priced at €647(VAT ex). I suspect that this option involves electrical wiring within the floor’s surface, as described in this ancient forum thread as ‘foot warming’ http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Underfloor-Heating/4185/ The Alde heat-exchanger option is listed separately (6kg weight and €748 (VAT ex) and is said to be part of a “Great Britain Pack”. MMM magazine February 2018 issue had a 2-page article (Pages 124/125) about Neismann+Bischoff, mentioning that Travelworld is currently the only UK N+B agency. Travelworld SHOULD either know what the ‘floor heating’ option consists of, or be able to confirm this from N+B. There’s also a contact section on the N+B website. https://www.niesmann-bischoff.com/en/look-forward-call-e-mail/ You could possibly get a job with Travelworld Derek, and all you say above is correct! I finally got my answers with a mix of the N&B owners and Travelworld. For those that may be interested for the future, the engine heat exchanger controls both the radiators and the under floor heating (if fitted.} while the van is running, and can be switched off. The Alde system is controllable both for the lounge area and the bedroom and the floor heating can be switched on or off independently as well. We have decided to have the system fitted, but may be a little late as the factory order has already gone in, and TW are contacting them today to hopefully upgrade the order. Once again thanks to all for the help and suggestions. Ainsley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted February 14, 2018 Share Posted February 14, 2018 I think that your flair has already Alde wet heating standard. At least in belgium. VB air suspension on the rear axle axle is also standard. On this liner you need also E-P hydraulic feets. You are standing on a Iveco chassis and a expensive double foor compared to AL- KO. Your step in is very high, and you have a high point of gravity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyboyprowler Posted February 14, 2018 Author Share Posted February 14, 2018 monique.hubrechts@gm - 2018-02-14 4:06 PM I think that your flair has already Alde wet heating standard. At least in belgium. VB air suspension on the rear axle axle is also standard. On this liner you need also E-P hydraulic feets. You are standing on a Iveco chassis and a expensive double foor compared to AL- KO. Your step in is very high, and you have a high point of gravity. Standard air and levelling fit on the Flair is Goldschmitt, and it is an option on all models. Iveco is rear wheel drive and that is why I opted for the Flair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted February 14, 2018 Share Posted February 14, 2018 To be nice about you factory order, we have a flair driver in our club who had to wait almost a year or a modelyear to get it delivered. There were also recalls about the daily chassis of their handbrake fixture cables on the rear axle. Check any recalls before delivery outstanding who has to deal whit ii, you or your dealer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted February 14, 2018 Share Posted February 14, 2018 Yes our member whit the flair said the same as you. Good traction whit double air single rear axle. Have any way air on the rear of your liner and feets. I think goldschmitt is later than Vb on chassis in case of iveco. One year ago i saw chassis delivered to nb who had the vb on the rear already fitted by iveco? Since hymer is goldschmitt and both are situated in polch germany your flair factory who is open to any buyer. You can discuss between the two but the company decide about their options the choose.Goldschmitt and Vb air are retro fit players. the only exempion is alko the fit it at the same when the chassis is built and have stage two approvals. Not the same as type approvals as vb and gs. But the alko x2 and x4 is a invention beteen vb and alko in which alko paid the money. Vb is expanding now world wide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 flyboyprowler - 2018-02-14 10:22 AM You could possibly get a job with Travelworld Derek, and all you say above is correct! I finally got my answers with a mix of the N&B owners and Travelworld. For those that may be interested for the future, the engine heat exchanger controls both the radiators and the under floor heating (if fitted.} while the van is running, and can be switched off. The Alde system is controllable both for the lounge area and the bedroom and the floor heating can be switched on or off independently as well. We have decided to have the system fitted, but may be a little late as the factory order has already gone in, and TW are contacting them today to hopefully upgrade the order. Once again thanks to all for the help and suggestions. Ainsley For the record, a N+B Flair’s underfloor heating option comprises additional water heating-pipes embedded in the floor’s construction. The extra pipes are visible in the drawing on Pages 54/55 of the Flair catalogue (a snake-like pattern of dark blue lines in the light blue floor). Hot water flows through those pipes whenever the Alde heating system is in operation, and floor heating does not operate independently from the rest of the Alde system that uses convector radiators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 Alde heating radiators are already their in a double floor alko. Assume the same on Iveco. So the floor is heated when the pump is running. In a isolated space. I think it is an extra to keep your feets warm in case you have no dogs whit you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoko8pups Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 I have it in my kitchen running on electricity and have the best thermostat I could get. It has a facility called setback. This allows the heating to stay on but at a lower temperature during the night and can be set to be back up to you chosen temperature by your chosen time in the morning. As someone has said this is not a system which responds to being switched on and off. it is also cheaper in the long run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyboyprowler Posted February 15, 2018 Author Share Posted February 15, 2018 Derek Uzzell - 2018-02-15 4:51 PM flyboyprowler - 2018-02-14 10:22 AM You could possibly get a job with Travelworld Derek, and all you say above is correct! I finally got my answers with a mix of the N&B owners and Travelworld. For those that may be interested for the future, the engine heat exchanger controls both the radiators and the under floor heating (if fitted.} while the van is running, and can be switched off. The Alde system is controllable both for the lounge area and the bedroom and the floor heating can be switched on or off independently as well. We have decided to have the system fitted, but may be a little late as the factory order has already gone in, and TW are contacting them today to hopefully upgrade the order. Once again thanks to all for the help and suggestions. Ainsley For the record, a N+B Flair’s underfloor heating option comprises additional water heating-pipes embedded in the floor’s construction. The extra pipes are visible in the drawing on Pages 54/55 of the Flair catalogue (a snake-like pattern of dark blue lines in the light blue floor). Hot water flows through those pipes whenever the Alde heating system is in operation, and floor heating does not operate independently from the rest of the Alde system that uses convector radiators. Right again Derek. The floor side runs in conjunction with the Alde heating, and the engine heat exchanger. A separate control for the underfloor heating cannot be fitted by the factory due to homogolation problems, but we may be able to have a separate thermostat fitted independently should it be needed later. All ordered now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.