Spare Wheel, or What?

[Usinmyknaus]

Advice needed please. When I ordered my van, due for delivery in May, the salesperson said Knaus (on Renault Master range) might drop the spare wheel from the model and it might arrive with a can of gunge instead. That worries me a lot 'cos I reckon sod's law dictates you will most certainly need a spare wheel the instant you don't have one.

 

So question is what should I do?

 

a. Get Tyron Bands fitted?

b. Go for the the liquid injection alternative I remember seeing advertised as doing a similar job to Tyron, but I can't recall the name?

c. Buy a matching Renault van wheel off Ebay and rig up a fitting for it in the garage?

d. Something else?

 

I want to be able to at least drive a few miles to a safe stopping place or a tyre shop.

 

Bob

 

[Guest Frank Wilkinson]

Insist on a spare wheel being fitted. Gunge won't repair a huge rip in the tyre and I cannot contemplate being stuck in the wilds of anywhere without a spare.

If this is Knaus's new policy it seems a very backward step.

[michele]

Usinmyknaus,

Don't they have to supply a spare if they are selling to the English market?

I agree with Frank I would insist on one or no deal . If it's the law in england then they should comply with it. Other people with much more help and info and people that know more might answer soon.

 

Good Luck (lol)

[messerschmitt owner]

it isn't the law to have a spare - my smart has tyre gunk and a compressor supplied as standard. But then again, it does have two different sizes of wheel (and on some fortwos - even two different sizes of tyre).

 

The tyres and wheels are being removed for costcutting and for payload reasons.

All you have to do is get the dealer to throw in a spare as part of the deal - and accept that another 30kg of payload has gone.

[chas]

Thats true, but will they have provided a wheel cradle to carry it ? the mind boggles at such stupid cost cutting. chas

[omar]

Hi

I have a renault master to access the spare is impossible so I have had the wheels sealed the same as my Smart car

[Brian Kirby]

See MMM January, p 11.  There was a query from Bill Tomlinson about the sealants, answered in some detail by Mel Eastburn.

If you take this route you shouldn't get the puncture in the first place.  However, it might be worth checking whether anything you get by way of a repair kit would: a) repair larger holes than the sealant and, if so, b) whether the repair kit sealant would be compatible with that already injected.

Also, before you get too concerned, consider when/where are the most likely places/conditions to get a puncture.  Tempting fate, but I haven't had one for years. 

I have often wondered whether, if I got one on a laden motorhome, it would be practical to jack the thing up on the standard jack, with the 'van moved safely away from the traffic stream. 

I'm a bit inclined to think most punctures happen when roads/roadsides are wet.  They also seem more likely on minor roads where the biggest danger is running over something sharp (flint, glass, nail etc) at the roadside.  Since minor road verges are seldom stabilised, and the nearside tyres are most at risk, I somehow doubt whether one could get the van to a safe place to change the wheel, on firm ground, without completely trashing the tyre.  Therefore, I do just wonder how realistic the famous spare really is?

The only problem I can see with injected sealant + a sealant based repair kit, is what you do if you run over an obstruction and wreck the tyre and or wheel.  That is the only circumstance I can foresee under which you'd really need a spare.  You'd probably need to call a breakdown service in any case, but I just don't know if, with the advent of these spareless vans, the breakdown services are gearing up to arrive with replacement wheels/tyres. 

I know Fiat operate a breakdown service as part of their warranty. 

Does anyone know if the other base vehicle manufacturers do this, and whether any of them offer wheel/tyre backup for their spareless vans if needed?  If not, you'd probably have to be retrieved on a "wrecker", or be prepared for a long wait at the roadside while someone located the correct wheel with a matching tyre!

[Mel E]

The Renault Master is covered for 3 years with a pan-Europe breakdown service.

 

I have now driven 13,500 miles without a spare, including to Norway's North Cape and through the Baltic States and Poland (awful roads!). So far no problems. I rcognise the key disadvantages are:

 

- serious damage to the tyre would require a breakdown truck with new tyre. No problem - I have never had any intention of jacking up any of my motorhomes on the supplied scissor jacks. Near 3.5 tonnes needs a trolley jack at the very least - and I'm not carrying one of those around as well as the spare.

- so I might have a very long wait for the service truck. But I should be able to drive a short distance to a decent off-road place and, hell, it's a motorhome, so waiting shouldn't be a big problem!

 

The advantages are simple:

 

- substantial weight saving

- very significant space saving, especially in a van conversion

- the absolute certainty that I'm never going to have to change a wheel whatever happens!

 

The injection material has been tested in tyres run over 40,000 miles and at speeds up to 150 mph (in suitably tyres). It seals damage up to 6mm in diameter. That's good enough for me. The company that built my conversion is so impressed that they've taken on a franchise for the stuff.

 

Mel E

====

[colin]

This is the second time I have posted similair so there must be a thread to search out.

I have a car which has can of sealent, only time I got punture it was a flint that made hole too large for sealent to work.

Whilst driving a large motorhome in NZ I had two blowouts that totaly wrecked tyres.

So from experience I will always carry spare if possible, I seem to recall some time back RAC and or AA saying they would charge if called to car with punture but no spare wheel not sure of situation now, allso with the bad potholes that we get nowadays I would guess bent rims are more of a possibility, I have had this happen in Caneries.

[mark lambert]

michele - 2007-01-16 11:42 PM

 

Usinmyknaus,

Don't they have to supply a spare if they are selling to the English market?

I agree with Frank I would insist on one or no deal . If it's the law in england then they should comply with it. Other people with much more help and info and people that know more might answer soon.

 

Good Luck (lol)

 

 

no ,there is no law about having a spare tyre. My car has no spare, just has 2 tins of spray repair.dont know how good the spray is as ive never needed to use it.

choppa

[flicka]

Usinmyknaus

My Honda Accord came without a spare, but with a can of "gunk" & compressor instead. BUT there was provision in the boot to take one.

Could not see the logic in that.

Anyway I ordered a spare as an option, not thinking that it would be a totally different type of wheel. A lot narrower profile and speed / distance restricted.

This is OK on a car but for your M/H make sure it is the same as theRoad wheels fitted. I am not sure a slim "get you home" type would take the weight loading.

Also if you are having Alooys on you M/H, search the previous threads there are some comments regarding Wheel Nuts for Alloys not being compatable with Steel Wheels. So please be aware.

Flicka

 

[chas]

I wonder what the AA/RAC think of this idea. I also would like to know anyone who as had a puncture while travelling in a motorhome, if they ever repaired the tyre with a sealant, and then drove on. My last puncture in my old van, was U.S by the time I had stoped, the AA put on my spare for me, can you imagine what the mechanic would have said if I had handed him a sealant cannister, I can ! 8o|

[spartan3956]

I would either get the dealer to supply or get one myself . Ive had a blowout on the motorway and its dangerous to be on the hard shoulder you here of patrol men killed or badly injured. it took me just over 5 minutes to drive onto a levelling block jack the vehicle up change the wheel and get the hell out of there. F1 pit stop had nothing on the speed i attained that day.

 

 

 

Pete

[Usinmyknaus]

Thanks everyone for your contibutions, they are really helpful.

 

Having had 2 punctures in 12 months in my CRV I am more sensitive to the risk at the moment than most I guess. As the Knaus brochure quoted the running weight as including a spare wheel it never occurred to me that it wouldn't come with one fitted! I take the point about the risk of changing a wheel on 3.5 tonnes of van - I once had a scissor jack go pop on a Ford Anglia and that was exciting.

 

I am waiting for notification of the production run for my van and should find out then if it is an issue or not. The salesperson could not tell me when I asked. I suspect that if Knaus decide to not provide a fitting I would have to do a DIY job on the garage to fit one but it would take up a lot of room. I note the point about weight too. (Brian's master class on weights and loading sadly post-dated my signing on the dotted line by just a few weeks and weight will be a factor.) I will ask the dealer about options though.

 

Mel E - the penny has just dropped following Brian's reference to MMM January and I've connected you to that article. If the pre-injected compound is capable of automatically plugging up to a 6mm hole as the maker claims that might be a good compromise of risk versus weight versus what a pain it will be to DIY fix a spare wheel to the van. I accept the posted comment about a shredded tyre defeating any pre-injected gunge or even Tyron bands, but the product you mention sounds like it might be a fair risk to take and if Knaus and the dealer insists that a spare cannot be fitted, I may not have a choice.

 

Bob

 

[Brian Kirby]

Mel E - 2007-01-17 12:24 PM The Renault Master is covered for 3 years with a pan-Europe breakdown service. I have now driven 13,500 miles without a spare, including to Norway's North Cape and through the Baltic States and Poland (awful roads!). So far no problems. I rcognise the key disadvantages are: - serious damage to the tyre would require a breakdown truck with new tyre. No problem - I have never had any intention of jacking up any of my motorhomes on the supplied scissor jacks. Near 3.5 tonnes needs a trolley jack at the very least - and I'm not carrying one of those around as well as the spare. - so I might have a very long wait for the service truck. But I should be able to drive a short distance to a decent off-road place and, hell, it's a motorhome, so waiting shouldn't be a big problem! The advantages are simple: - substantial weight saving - very significant space saving, especially in a van conversion - the absolute certainty that I'm never going to have to change a wheel whatever happens! The injection material has been tested in tyres run over 40,000 miles and at speeds up to 150 mph (in suitably tyres). It seals damage up to 6mm in diameter. That's good enough for me. The company that built my conversion is so impressed that they've taken on a franchise for the stuff. Mel E ====

Mel

From your recommendations/comments I have no doubts as to the efficacy of the injected sealant.

What concerns me is the sourcing of a wheel/tyre appropriate for a motorhome.  Most of our travels, I guess, will stay within the confines of the enlarged EC, Switzerland or Norway, where, I believe (apart from common sense), it is actually illegal to mix tyre types on an axle.

However, if one has Michelin XC campings fitted, so far as I know, there are very few properly compatible tyres that could mix with these across an axle.  I don't know how the XCs should be treated in this respect, but their construction is claimed to be higher rated than the carcass stampings indicate.  A bit like plating down a chassis.  So, if the actual (undeclared) rating is, for example 10 ply, but the stamping indicates only an 8 ply, what is the appropriate fit?  (But I'm not addressing this particular question to you personally!  Can anyone answer this?)

Now, this "no spare" lark may well be OK if you have a more readily available type of tyre fitted, always provided you stay within the confines of the "core" EC countries.  But, what about the new accession states?  (Nothing specifically against these, you understand, but I do just wonder about the present level of technical training for Romanian/Bulgarian tyre fitters!).  Also, I can foreseen certain communication problems, when the fitter arrives after a 15 mile trip, with a tyre you aren't happy for him/her to fit.  I think your roadside wait just might become the holiday!

Therefore, if (in your case) Renault's guarantee includes, in the case of damage to a tyre necessitating its replacement, roadside assistance for the whole of the enlarged EC, under which they agree to deliver to you the correct wheel/tyre as the case may be (at your expense, of course), irrespective of whatever country you happen to be in, or to transport you safely to a suitable workshop, then fine.  If it is a bit "grey" anywhere, or if they are a bit evasive if pressed on the point, then I think one would still be well advised to carry a spare, even if there is a weight penalty, at the very least if going "off the beaten track".

However, I suspect that these "no spare" vehicles will eventually attract some caveat or premium from the breakdown organisations, especially the pan-European ones, because of the potential cost to them of servicing what will be, in reality, a relatively unusual event.  Thus, one way or another, we shall pay for the spare.

I also suspect the base vehicle manufacturers will, eventually, be forced to re-think on this, because waiting for the breakdown vehicle with its spare tyre etc will simply take the van out of circulation for too long.  You can change a wheel far faster than a breakdown service can respond, under almost any circumstances.  For laden HGVs there is little choice, but the average "white van" is used differently, and on the road minutes are critical for many of the operators.

I think we're being conned into regressing to an age where the spare was a chargeable extra, just like windscreen wipers on early cars!  I do think this should be resisted, for motorhomes at least.

[Guest Frank Wilkinson]

I couldn't agree more with Brian's assessment and I suspect that few people have considered the possibility of not being able to obtain the correct replacement tyre. I certainly hadn't!

For me it's a simple argument. I think of my spare wheel as I do home insurance. I haven't claimed om my insurance for twenty years but I'm not going to cancel it!

Imagine having a damaged tyre, not halfway through your holiday, when time isn't important, but on your way to the ferry terminal. You could end up missing your sailing and as a consequence of that miss other things that are possibly more important.

Err on the safe side say I!

[Tony Jones]

Agreed. It'd be wonderful if I could do without the spare on my Transit - its original position was hard to get at, and its present mounting on the back door causes creaks and rattles.

BUT ... almost every continental trip I've done has involved a puncture at some point (last year two! - is it me???) and getting those dealt with at the roadside would have taken too much time out of our holiday.

At least with a spare, once I've changed the wheel (a few minutes now it's not hidden underneath!) we can choose for ourselves where we want to spend the time while it gets fixed/replaced.

It may be too late for our original "poster" to go back and insist "spare wheel or no deal" - depends what they've already signed - but personally I wouldn't do without one.

 

Tony

[Basil]

Hi Usinmyknaus

 

Having had a blow out on our Elddis at 65-70mph on the M20 (in the dry by the way) which fortunately was relatively clear, trust me there was no way that tyre sealant would have fixed an exploded Michelin Agilis tyre that turned into a flail that destroyed the GRP side fairing (I do have pictures of both the tyre and the damage), the floor behind the wheel arch and the electric step! Having said that this was only the second time a puncture has caught me away from home in over 40 years. I think Franks insurance analogy totally valid.

I did call the recovery services who arrived in about 20 mins but I had already just about finished changing it myself. There were no problems with the standard jack lifting the loaded van ready for five weeks in Europe, the warning triangles worked as did the reflective clobber (least weys we had no accidents or near misses) and the recovery guy complimented us on our visibility which he said if only everyone did it.

The big mistake I made was taking the next boat from Dover as offered by P&O. It was saturday night and stupid me forgot that on Sunday Calais was shut and we did not want to proceed with no spare back up. When we did eventually get hold of someone to help we found that despite being a Peugeot Boxer they do not import our size of tyre into France (15" standard size Boxer tyres) they are just not available. Thank goodness for the Caravan Club Red Pennant who shipped two over for next day, only cost to us was the tyres.

The van was loaded correctly and not overweight (only two of us using a 6 berth van), the tyre pressures were correct according to that stipulated in the handbook and on the vehicle. the tyres were also relatively new and had very little wear still giving more than 5.5mm when checked.

So for my part after experience, its always easy to see the error of ways after it's happened, I would not buy or accept any vehicle without a spare wheel of some sort e.g. spacesaver as a minimum. Punctures and blow outs can occur in wet or dry on motorways or any other road with perfect condition tyres and with no other obvious cause, do you feel lucky?

 

Bas

 

P.S. I was advised that the RAC and AA recovery services make a charge if you do not have spare on board, don't know if that has changed or not. I would advise anyone who has been short changed of a wheel to check it out for themselves before they need to use it.

[Guest starspirit]

A breakers yard is a good source of supply for spare wheels, with or without a tyre, and there are several who operate via the internet and charge a whole lot less than the vehicle makers.

Simple enough to supply wheel and tyre size together with PCD and offset to be sure of getting the right size and it would not really matter if the actual wheel pattern differed slightly as long as every thing else was right.

Assuming of course that one has a cradle or large locker to put the wheel into?

[Mike Chapman]

If I may just add a few comments to this thread in addition to the advice already given.

 

To the best of my knowledge Spacesaver wheels are not available (certainly in the UK) for the commercial van, base vehicles most commonly used for Motor Caravans. The exception will be the ultra light vans based on such as Citroen Berlingo etc.

 

The tyre inflation canisters supplied with many vehicles in place of a spare wheel can render the tyre irrepairable after use (In some cases this can be because the tyre dealer will have to clean the tyre and rim before repairing a puncture and this will add substantially to the cost). Some of these cylinders would not be able to inflate a van tyre to a reasonable pressure so if you do purchase one ensure that the inflation pressure is suitable.

 

If you have diffferent tyre sizes front and rear the single spare will only be legally useable on one axle. The spare could be used to get the vehicle to safety/repair centre and it is unlikely that you would be picked up or prosecuted for using an incorrect size in this way. Car Spacesaver wheels are used in this way but with speed warnings.

 

If possible it is better to have all wheels/tyres the same size and type. It has been already mentioned about using different wheel bolts/nuts for steel and alloy wheels and remember that different torque settings are also used, higher on Alloy wheels. Seriously overtightening a steel wheel will turn it into scrap.

 

Using Tyron bands will reduce the damage done by a punctured tyre to the wheel arch and surrounding area. Most damage is done when the tyre starts to come off the rim, break-up and flail around.

 

Using Protex or Ultraseal is a good back up with small punctures but next to useless if the sidewall is ripped open.

 

If you get two punctures at the same time or before the punctured tyre is repaired then having one spare is not a great deal of good.

 

My personal feeling is that I would never travel without a matched spare and without Tyron bands on all wheels. I would not buy a vehicle without having a spare wheel supplied. No spare means no way of self recovery after a puncture.

 

Regards,

 

Mike.

[Usinmyknaus]

Thanks to everyone for more good advice. I'll send an e-mail to the supplying dealer and see if they know more about it yet.

 

Bob

[Brian Kirby]

starspirit - 2007-01-18 12:48 PM A breakers yard is a good source of supply for spare wheels, with or without a tyre, and there are several who operate via the internet and charge a whole lot less than the vehicle makers. Simple enough to supply wheel and tyre size together with PCD and offset to be sure of getting the right size and it would not really matter if the actual wheel pattern differed slightly as long as every thing else was right. Assuming of course that one has a cradle or large locker to put the wheel into?

Assuming that, yes Richard.  Trouble is, I have a nasty suspicion the spare wheel bay was exactly where you'll find your waste water tank has now been fitted!

Funny that, isn't it?

[fred grant]

Read the small print in yor breakdown company contract - no servicable spare wheel means no help - UNLESS the vehicle was designed originally without a spare wheel. All renault masters chassis are supplied with a spare wheel so knous must be ditching it. i agrees, no spare wheel no sale pal.

 

fred

[Guest starspirit]

Fair enough Brian but surely it is not beyond the wit of man to devise a carrying place for a spare wheel?

 

The roof comes to mind as one possible place given it's limitations of access and load bearing capabilities but many vans do have roof racks and ladders.

 

The back wall too comes to mind and perhaps with ingenuity a bike rack and mounting points can be suitably reinforced on some vans?

 

I don't know - but I do know that I wouldn't let the problem beat me and if all else fails I'd give the supplying dealer the ultimatum to sort it or I'd buy a different van elsewhere!

[Rayjsj]

Just adding my two-penny worth. I had my first puncture in my M/H last year,all tyres checked before journey,pressures adjusted,none over 5 years old (according to local tyre fitter). SO, what happened ? my theory,in checking tyre pressures i disturbed the valve core (i have those extensions that bring the mouth of the valve within reach) so a slow leak started,by the time i noticed slight irregular handling (200 miles or so later)

on a roundabout, it was too late,whilst looking for a safe place to stop.BANG ! Tyre shredded,luckily, it was a rear one, stayed on the rim long enough for me to find a safe layby and didn't damage the Van.

But it shook me up no end,with lots of 'what ifs'

I had it changed,just as the RAC arrived.He helped me stow the U/S one away. Me Personally Would NOT travel without a 'PROPER' spare wheel and tyre, I won't even accept a 'Space saver' on a car. No spare,No Sale ! Awkward so and so, maybye, but i am the customer. *-)