A-frame guidance

[Derek Uzzell]

 

I happened to come across this in passing

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/a-frames-and-dollies/a-frames-and-dollies

[colin]

Doesn't surprise me it has been withdrawn as it seems to ignore UN regulations on trailer certification as I've posted before.

[ColinM50]

But still non commital on the legality of using them in the EU. Not very helpful in that respect.

[Derek Uzzell]

Not sure what you mean by “still non commital” as the ‘guidance’ shown on the link I provided has been withdrawn and, presumably, will be reissued eventually in a revised form.

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

If you drive in order whit a national leglisation in a eu country. you can drive whit it in any eu country on transit.

[ColinM50]

Derek, the last paragraph says

The use of A-frames in other EU countries

The Vienna Convention is the international law that governs this issue. We cannot comment on the interpretation of this by other European countries and whether they permit or prohibit the use of A-frames in their national traffic. Anyone intending to travel through a European country and using an A-frame to tow a vehicle would be recommended to seek independent advice as to the laws within that country.

 

So as I read it, there's no clarification here as to whether you can or can't use them in other countries.

[Derek Uzzell]

Jeez - I wish I’d not bothered to post about this. :-( :-( :-(

 

The text on the link I provided is a copy of the A-frames/dollies information sheet originally issued by the Department for Transport in 2011 (see .pdf file on link below)

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/686177/a-frames-and-dollies.pdf

 

This DforT document was what has caused all the discussion/argument during the last seven years and (as it says at the top of the “WITHDRAWN” link) the information was published on the gov.uk website on 11 September 2011.

 

On 7 March 2018 the 2011 guidance (as it says on the link) was WITHDRAWN pending a review of information on the subject.

 

So forget the text on the link (that people have been referring to since 2011) as the A-frames/dollies issue is now being reviewed by the Department for Transport. What the DforT will come up with is anybody’s guess...

 

[jobboyce]

Thanks Derek for the Heads Up on the A Frame guidance.

As a Motorhomer who has towed the car without incident for over 20 years (UK & Europe) it is disappointing that what had become established rules of engagement have now been withdrawn (I bet they don't stop selling A Frames). Would it have not been better for the D f T to issue New guidance before they withdraw the old. But I suppose if there is NO guidance we can do what we like,,,,can't we ???? and what effect will have on insurance ????

We will have to wait and see How Long it takes, and What the New guidance will be, Im sure it will cost us all some cash !!!

The cans and cants in Europe wont be an issue wont be an issue this time next year.... sadly

Until the next GUIDANCE CARRY on REGARDLESS

Bob

:-D

[gordonaldson]

This Vacuum assistance to braking effort is the questionable one. So instead of your foot Appling the brake while driving which does a good job, the weight or inertia of the trailing car is going to be appling the brake at the foot pedal via a wire from the overrun coupling. I can see smoky tires and locking up brakes here. There is of course the expensive option of about £1500 where its all electronics in a box. Vacuum pump, link to brake pedal and works via inertia like what an IPhone can do.

So in all the one man portable A frame connected to car via straps on front suspension is outlawed...Quit a few people chance doing it this way with no braking whatsoever to trailing vehicle...Wonder if Police will be told to act.

[colin]

gordonaldson - 2018-03-12 9:51 PM

 

So in all the one man portable A frame connected to car via straps on front suspension is outlawed...Quit a few people chance doing it this way with no braking whatsoever to trailing vehicle...Wonder if Police will be told to act.

 

It is well known that the temporary ones are illegal for anything aside from emergency use and people have been prosecuted over this for many years.

 

[Derek Uzzell]

I’ve never been able to identify a UK law that limits one vehicle towing another motor vehicle only to ‘emergency’ situations or restricts the distance that the towed vehicle can travel. However, it would seem that, when a motor vehicle is being towed on its wheels, that vehicle must have a driver in it.

 

Obviously a ‘driver requirement’ would present problems if a motorcaravanner wished to A-frame-tow a car, hence the attraction of the Department for Transport’s 2011 opionion that a car being towed on an A-frame can be considered a ‘trailer’ under UK law (and, hence, the ‘driver requirement’ won’t apply).

 

The UK is a signatory to the Vienna Convention on Road Traffic, and this Convention has been regularly cited as a justification for UK A-framers legally carying out the A-frame practice in countries that are also signatories but have national laws that forbid one motor vehicle towiing another. In fact, the Vienna Convention can be cited as placing doubt on the DforT’s opinion that a towed car can be considered a trailer.

 

The Convention begins by providing specific definitions of expressions that will be used within the agreement.

 

A ‘motor vehicle’ is defined as

 

“...any power-driven vehicle which is normally used for carrying persons or goods by road or for drawing, on the road, vehicles used for the carriage of persons or goods. This term embraces trolley-buses, that is to say, vehicles connected to an electric conductor and not rail-borne. It does not cover vehicles, such as agricultural tractors, which are only incidentally used for carrying persons or goods by road or for drawing, on the road, vehicles used for the carriage of persons or goods"

 

and a ‘trailer’ is defined as

 

“...any vehicle designed to be drawn by a power-driven vehicle and includes semi-trailers”

 

It should be clear then that, where the Vienna Convention is concerned, a motorhome could tow (draw) a car, but as a car is definitely not a "vehicle DESIGNED to be drawn by a power-driven vehicle”, the car cannot be a ‘trailer’.

 

The Vienna Convention is being amended regarding autonomous vehicles, but it’s most unlikely that changes will be made to specifically target A-frame towing.

 

 

[StuartO]

Derek Uzzell - 2018-03-13 10:57 PMI’ve never been able to identify a UK law that limits one vehicle towing another motor vehicle only to ‘emergency’ situations or restricts the distance that the towed vehicle can travel. However, it would seem that, when a motor vehicle is being towed on its wheels, that vehicle must have a driver in it.Obviously a ‘driver requirement’ would present problems if a motorcaravanner wished to A-frame-tow a car, hence the attraction of the Department for Transport’s 2011 opionion that a car being towed on an A-frame can be considered a ‘trailer’ under UK law (and, hence, the ‘driver requirement’ won’t apply).The UK is a signatory to the Vienna Convention on Road Traffic, and this Convention has been regularly cited as a justification for UK A-framers legally carying out the A-frame practice in countries that are also signatories but have national laws that forbid one motor vehicle towiing another. In fact, the Vienna Convention can be cited as placing doubt on the DforT’s opinion that a towed car can be considered a trailer. The Convention begins by providing specific definitions of expressions that will be used within the agreement. A ‘motor vehicle’ is defined as“...any power-driven vehicle which is normally used for carrying persons or goods by road or for drawing, on the road, vehicles used for the carriage of persons or goods. This term embraces trolley-buses, that is to say, vehicles connected to an electric conductor and not rail-borne. It does not cover vehicles, such as agricultural tractors, which are only incidentally used for carrying persons or goods by road or for drawing, on the road, vehicles used for the carriage of persons or goods"and a ‘trailer’ is defined as“...any vehicle designed to be drawn by a power-driven vehicle and includes semi-trailers”It should be clear then that, where the Vienna Convention is concerned, a motorhome could tow (draw) a car, but as a car is definitely not a "vehicle DESIGNED to be drawn by a power-driven vehicle”, the car cannot be a ‘trailer’.The Vienna Convention is being amended regarding autonomous vehicles, but it’s most unlikely that changes will be made to specifically target A-frame towing.

 

I suggest that your interpretation, effectively that a motor vehicle is still a motor vehicle when it's being towed by means of an A frame, is not a specific provision of the Convention and therefore open to challenge.  The Convention merely defines the two types of vehicle and does not exclude the possibility that a motor vehicle can, by the fitting of an A Frame and brake linkage, become (and should then be regarded as) a trailer when it is being used as such.  An aeroplane being towed off the gate on the ground is still an aeroplane but for the driver of the tracter it has become, for all practical purposes, a trailer which is entirely under his control.

 

In countries where there is a specific law which says a motor vehicle may not be towed, as in Spain for example, the law prohibits a motor vehicle from being converted to and used as a trailer, which therefore has overriding effect.

 

[Derek Uzzell]

StuartO - 2018-03-13 8:26 AM

 

I suggest that your interpretation, effectively that a motor vehicle is still a motor vehicle when it's being towed by means of an A frame, is not a specific provision of the Convention and therefore open to challenge...

 

Of course it’s open to challenge. I’m just entertaining myself like the Department for Transport spokesman did in 2011 ;-) ;-)

 

Nevertheless, the UK is a signatory of the Vienna Convention and, if the Convention is to be used as a tool to support the contention that a UK motorcaravanner is legally able to A-frame anywhere abroad irrespective of national laws, the Convention’s wording can also be used as a weapon to argue against the DforT’s ’the car is a trailer’ 2011 opinion.

 

As far as I’m aware Spain does not have a law that prohibits a motor vehicle from being converted into a trailer - Spain just has a law that prohibits one motor vehicle towing another motor vehicle.

 

(You might be unsurprised to learn that the Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t come to my house anymore.)

[colin]

StuartO - 2018-03-13 8:26 AM

 

  The Convention merely defines the two types of vehicle and does not exclude the possibility that a motor vehicle can, by the fitting of an A Frame and brake linkage, become (and should then be regarded as) a trailer when it is being used as such.  An aeroplane being towed off the gate on the ground is still an aeroplane but for the driver of the tracter it has become, for all practical purposes, a trailer which is entirely under his control.In countries where there is a specific law which says a motor vehicle may not be towed, as in Spain for example, the law prohibits a motor vehicle from being converted to and used as a trailer, which therefore has overriding effect.

 

Couple of points, an aircraft can become a car and a car can become a aircraft, but they need the respective certification.

Not sure any law in Spain prohibits a motor vehicle being converted into a trailer, AFAIK it just prohibits a vehicle towing another with it's wheels on the road.

All new trailers are required by UN regulations to be certified, my personnel view is that if any A frame owner gets this done they should be legal to tow anywhere, but AFAIK not one has this certification for the whole item.

 

[mgnbuk]

I posted this in February 2015 :

 

From the latest C&CC magazine :

 

"Club members are being advised not to use an A-frame to tow a car in Europe, following new guidance from the Department for Transport (DfT)

 

The 1968 Vienna Convention on road traffic says a citizen of one state may use a vehicle in another state as long as it is legal in his or her own country. However, the DfT says the assumed protections offered by the Treaty do not cover A-frames because they post-date it and are therefore outside its scope.

 

The Club's Technical Team has been told the UK doesn't intend to implement recent changes to EU light trailer brakes regulations. This means A-frames will remain acceptable within the UK.

 

Following this clarification, the Club strongly recommends that if members wish to tow a car behind a motorhome in mainland Europe then it must be on a trailer. "

 

The DfT position on this appears to be that the Vienna Convention argument is not valid for A-frames & this position was taken later than the 2011 documents mentioned.

 

Nigel B

[Brian Kirby]

The writ of UK law does not extend outside the UK.

 

Under UK law an A frame towed car is neither legal, nor illegal, because it has been left to the courts to determine, and no court has yet done so. The famous "grey area", which A frame manufacturers exploit to sell their products.

 

The Vienna Convention confirms an agreement between the signatories that any vehicle, or combination of vehicles, that is legal in the country where they are registered, will be admitted as international traffic to the roads of all other signatory countries.

 

Since the legality of the use of A frames to tow cars has never been tried and ruled upon in UK courts, it is impossible for anyone to demonstrate, if challenged when abroad, that the practise is legal in the UK.

 

It follows that such combinations of vehicles fall outside the scope of the Vienna Convention.

 

What many seem to miss is that the UK concept of common law, where what is not explicitly declared illegal can be regarded as legal, does not generally extend outside the UK. Most European states have adopted what I understand to be Napoleonic law, where to be legal a practise has to be authorised in legislation, and if it is not, it is deemed illegal. That is the complete opposite of the common (Norman) law as practised in UK.

 

There is one additional little fly in the Vienna Convention ointment. Throughout most of Europe a trailer is required to be registered (usually if over 750kg MAM) in its own right, and is given its own registration number. Police officers have the right to demand to see the "papers" for both vehicles. If asked for the papers for the vehicles by foreign police, you will need to present the V5Cs for both the motorhome with which you are towing the car, and that for the car. The former will demonstrate that it is a "motor caravan", and the latter that it is a petrol (or diesel) car, and not a trailer. In a number of countries that is a contravention of national law and, as you cannot prove the combination is legal in the UK (and thus covered by the Vienna Convention), you will be liable to a penalty or, if the police are so disposed, to uncouple the car, detach the A frame, and drive it under it's own power.

 

You could, of course, mount a legal challenge to this, and the outcome might be interesting, but is this realistic proposition for a passing holidaymaker, and is it really how you want to pass your time abroad?

 

It is impossible to say that this, or that, circumstance will directly flow from A framing a car outside the UK, because there are too many variables at work. The police may not spot you, or may be resigned to the fact that the british do this, or have been advised that they should turn a blind eye to the practice in the interests of promoting tourism. But, there is the ever present risk that you may be spotted, that the officers concerned are not resigned to the A framing British, or have not been instructed to turn a blind eye.

 

The "fail safe" solution is, therefore, to load the car onto a trailer, and tow that, which is a completely legal combination of vehicles (provided that the MAM of the trailer is not exceeded, and does not exceed the permissible towing limit of the tow vehicle), and can be proved so under the Vienna Convention, because there is UK legislation that establishes the legal requirements for trailers.

[tonyishuk]

Went to have a look-see on Derek's link and its gorne ! (As in withdrawn)

 

Rgds

[Derek Uzzell]

The link still functions

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/a-frames-and-dollies/a-frames-and-dollies

 

but the text of the 2011 ’guidance’ that is now in limbo has been removed. Probably a wise move as the presence of the original (now-withdrawn) advice was potentially confusing.