Tracker Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 colin - 2018-04-12 2:20 PM Bulletguy - 2018-04-11 11:03 PM We've also yet to hear the OCPW report which is still to be released. Now released and confirms UK governments conclusions. That will delight Bulletbrain and John Pious 52nd - perhaps they will shut up now - although somehow I doubt that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted April 12, 2018 Author Share Posted April 12, 2018 Tracker - 2018-04-12 1:43 PM Bulletguy - 2018-04-11 11:03 PM Taking up permanent residency here is not going to be easy by a long way. Friends, family, language, cultural differences......it's not as easy as you seem to believe, not to mention her boyfriend who she'd lived with for five years. Also she will undoubtedly find herself overwhelmed by propaganda from both sides begging her to jump in their direction to help validate or invalidate the allegations of Russian state involvement. You missed bit in living here not going to be easy for Yulia - having a death threat for all defectors from the Russian government does not make it easy. Her statement does seem to be carefully crafted in that it leaves all doors open and makes no accusations and in her place I would probably ask to say the same. The UK is a lot more free than Russia and she can always change her mind here without persecution which is more than she can in Russia. It has been and of that i've no doubt as it read more like a statement overseen by 'an authority' which Yulia has simply signed, possibly after having it read back in Russian. I will feel more comfortable when she's allowed to speak for herself rather than through a heavily monitored government 'mouthpiece' but somehow fear that will be a very long way off, if at all. She has to 'keep all doors open' by reserving the right to change her mind, after all she's simply a Russian citizen but as i said previously, the pressure on her means she will find herself overwhelmed by propaganda from both sides begging her to jump in their direction to help validate or invalidate the allegations of Russian state involvement. She's inadvertently become a political pawn in a very big high stakes game pulled between two 'battling' sides. I think you're still viewing Russia through Cold War eyes as their citizens have traveled freely between countries for years now and regards tourist visas have exactly the same 30 day allowance as British do. colin - 2018-04-12 2:20 PM Bulletguy - 2018-04-11 11:03 PM We've also yet to hear the OCPW report which is still to be released. Now released and confirms UK governments conclusions. It's a summary Colin. The full report is classified. From the brief summary i'd say they confirm what Porton Down said......not UK Govt. OPCW describe it as 'allegedly a nerve agent' and don't even name it as Novichock but i suspect that's simply 'careful diplomacy' and beyond their remit. Also there is no mention of it's source which once again confirms what Porton Down said rather than the ludicrous lies Johnson and the FO got caught out in last week. https://www.opcw.org/special-sections/salisbury-incident/related-official-documents/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 Bulletguy - 2018-04-12 4:44 PM Tracker - 2018-04-12 1:43 PM Bulletguy - 2018-04-11 11:03 PM Taking up permanent residency here is not going to be easy by a long way. Friends, family, language, cultural differences......it's not as easy as you seem to believe, not to mention her boyfriend who she'd lived with for five years. Also she will undoubtedly find herself overwhelmed by propaganda from both sides begging her to jump in their direction to help validate or invalidate the allegations of Russian state involvement. You missed bit in living here not going to be easy for Yulia - having a death threat for all defectors from the Russian government does not make it easy. Her statement does seem to be carefully crafted in that it leaves all doors open and makes no accusations and in her place I would probably ask to say the same. The UK is a lot more free than Russia and she can always change her mind here without persecution which is more than she can in Russia. It has been and of that i've no doubt as it read more like a statement overseen by 'an authority' which Yulia has simply signed, possibly after having it read back in Russian. I will feel more comfortable when she's allowed to speak for herself rather than through a heavily monitored government 'mouthpiece' but somehow fear that will be a very long way off, if at all. She has to 'keep all doors open' by reserving the right to change her mind, after all she's simply a Russian citizen but as i said previously, the pressure on her means she will find herself overwhelmed by propaganda from both sides begging her to jump in their direction to help validate or invalidate the allegations of Russian state involvement. She's inadvertently become a political pawn in a very big high stakes game pulled between two 'battling' sides. I think you're still viewing Russia through Cold War eyes as their citizens have traveled freely between countries for years now and regards tourist visas have exactly the same 30 day allowance as British do. colin - 2018-04-12 2:20 PM Bulletguy - 2018-04-11 11:03 PM We've also yet to hear the OCPW report which is still to be released. Now released and confirms UK governments conclusions. It's a summary Colin. The full report is classified. From the brief summary i'd say they confirm what Porton Down said......not UK Govt. OPCW describe it as 'allegedly a nerve agent' and don't even name it as Novichock but i suspect that's simply 'careful diplomacy' and beyond their remit. Also there is no mention of it's source which once again confirms what Porton Down said rather than the ludicrous lies Johnson and the FO got caught out in last week. https://www.opcw.org/special-sections/salisbury-incident/related-official-documents/ Yet Bullet knows its got nothing to do with the Russians *-) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted April 13, 2018 Author Share Posted April 13, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-04-13 11:55 AM Yet Bullet knows its got nothing to do with the Russians *-) ......... If you'd bothered to read the OPCW summary the source cannot be determined, exactly as Porton Down said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet1956 Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 I wonder if the OPCW could not state the origin because they have not inspected the Russian facility which some claim is the most likely to be the place it was manufactured. Can't help thinking BG that if the boot was on the other foot we would invite the OPCW in to the UK to search any facility the Russians thought might be responsible as soon as the allegation was made. Veronica Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 I'm not sure whether Paul is being over-cautious, or over-protective of Putin. The only way we would now for certain who administered the poison would be if the perpetrator had left traces that it had not involved our security services to find. Otherwise, it is very likely that even if there is very strong circumstantial, or even positive, evidence pointing to Russia, to the Kremlin, or even to an identifiable individual, neither we nor the Russians will be told, if doing so would reveal how we came to know. However, it is not that difficult to believe that the perpetrator was Russian, or Russian directed, that the nerve agent, having been invented in Russia, would be available in Russia in small quantities, that the source would be under tight state control (it's clearly not the kind of stuff anyone would want in general circulation), and that as the two main victime were Russian, one being an ex double agent, there is adequate motivation for an assassination attempt - even if we don't know why that should be have taken place now. It is not as though the Russia state is averse to conducting extra judicial executions on other people's soil! Putin is clearly a grade 1 international stirrer, though his motivations are difficult to understand. It seems, he merely wants to promote the idea within Russia that they need him, and to that end he needs external aggressors with whom he can frighten the Russians. If so, he is very successful. He is also very far from representing anything like the old, Soviet, Russia, for which some had political sympathies, appearing to be becoming a somewhat despotic dictator whose instincts are nearer, from my point of view, to the extreme right than they are to the extreme left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted April 13, 2018 Author Share Posted April 13, 2018 Violet1956 - 2018-04-13 3:28 PM I wonder if the OPCW could not state the origin because they have not inspected the Russian facility which some claim is the most likely to be the place it was manufactured. Can't help thinking BG that if the boot was on the other foot we would invite the OPCW in to the UK to search any facility the Russians thought might be responsible as soon as the allegation was made. Veronica Boot on other foot was an interesting point mentioned by Machon, the ex-MI5 officer. As she said, reverse the scenario and had this occurred with a British citizen on holiday in Russia, and Russia accused us of carrying out the attack but refused to show what evidence they had to support that allegation....we'd be jumping up and down in a rage. The same also if they whisked off the UK citizen to an unknown location to be secreted away overseen by Russian security services. Brian Kirby - 2018-04-13 4:59 PM I'm not sure whether Paul is being over-cautious, or over-protective of Putin. The only way we would now for certain who administered the poison would be if the perpetrator had left traces that it had not involved our security services to find. Otherwise, it is very likely that even if there is very strong circumstantial, or even positive, evidence pointing to Russia, to the Kremlin, or even to an identifiable individual, neither we nor the Russians will be told, if doing so would reveal how we came to know. However, it is not that difficult to believe that the perpetrator was Russian, or Russian directed, that the nerve agent, having been invented in Russia, would be available in Russia in small quantities, that the source would be under tight state control (it's clearly not the kind of stuff anyone would want in general circulation), and that as the two main victime were Russian, one being an ex double agent, there is adequate motivation for an assassination attempt - even if we don't know why that should be have taken place now. It is not as though the Russia state is averse to conducting extra judicial executions on other people's soil! Putin is clearly a grade 1 international stirrer, though his motivations are difficult to understand. It seems, he merely wants to promote the idea within Russia that they need him, and to that end he needs external aggressors with whom he can frighten the Russians. If so, he is very successful. He is also very far from representing anything like the old, Soviet, Russia, for which some had political sympathies, appearing to be becoming a somewhat despotic dictator whose instincts are nearer, from my point of view, to the extreme right than they are to the extreme left. Cautious Brian. Even a source doesn't make a perpetrator. If they can establish a source all it identifies is it's origin......not who carried out the attack. Not the best of analogies but it's a bit like blaming Sheffield every time a knife attack occurs which is a bit bonkers because we know steel knives can be made elsewhere....and so far i've seen nothing to suggest a novichok nerve agent can't be made elsewhere either. Given the technology 'know how' i'm certain it's not beyond the capabilities of Porton Down for example. After all they were able to identify it so they must know it's composition. Russia cannot be the only country in the world with the knowledge.....and we know for a fact one of their scientists who actually worked on the development of Novichok lives in Princeton USA so i'm sure by now the US also have the 'know how'. Initially after naming it as Novichok we were told it's "5-8 times more deadly than VX" and recovery is "remote", yet the police officer walks out of hospital after a couple of weeks and Yulia discharged in less than a month. The highest concentration of the nerve agent was said to found smeared over the Skripals front door....yet two police officers stood guard dressed in standard uniform before the property was sealed off and the Hazmat suits descended on it. Motive is as you say 'difficult to understand'. In fact i'd go further and question what possible motive would Putin have, bearing in mind what then was upcoming elections, not to mention hosting the World Cup. None of it stacks up. Assuming Putin, or possibly FSB agents whom bore a grudge against Skripal as a traitor, which he was, wanted him 'bumped off'.....then why on earth wait until the guy is living in another country and use whats turned out to be a very ineffective method of killing him? Doesn't make sense. A 100% guaranteed method would be hiring a Mafia doorstep assassin with 9mm pistol and silencer. One shot and that's it......and nobody would have seen or known anything enabling the killer plenty of time to make good their escape. Who killed GCHQ man seconded to MI5, Gareth Williams? Eight years on and still nobody knows. The other question is why was Skripal going to the UK Russian Embassy 'regularly'? His days as an intelligence officer had allegedly ended once imprisoned. MI5 must certainly have known about his frequent visits yet nothing has been mentioned about that. There are too many unanswered questions, most of which i suspect we will never get to the bottom of. May acted with knee jerk reaction by chucking out Russian diplomats persuading other EU countries to banish theirs by asking for "shoulder to shoulder support" from the very countries she's currently seeking a 'divorce' from! Johnsons lies have been brushed aside with the pathetic excuse of "a mis-saying" and his office quickly removed that damning tweet from their site. So yes....after the 'wmd' debacle of 2003 and events leading up to it from both UK and the US, i'm cautious and keeping a wide open mind. Way too simplistic to trot out "Russia did it because we think so". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted April 13, 2018 Author Share Posted April 13, 2018 I forgot to post this judicial report which is worth a read. One part mentions Porton Down Chemical and Biological Analyst which imo, shows how cautious Porton were being in their choice of words. Blood samples from Sergei Skripal and Yulia Skripal were analysed and the findings indicated exposure to a nerve agent or related compound. The samples tested positive for the presence of a Novichok class nerve agent or closely related agent. https://www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/sshd-v-skripal-and-another-20180322.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet1956 Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 Bulletguy - 2018-04-13 7:00 PM I forgot to post this judicial report which is worth a read. One part mentions Porton Down Chemical and Biological Analyst which imo, shows how cautious Porton were being in their choice of words. Blood samples from Sergei Skripal and Yulia Skripal were analysed and the findings indicated exposure to a nerve agent or related compound. The samples tested positive for the presence of a Novichok class nerve agent or closely related agent. https://www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/sshd-v-skripal-and-another-20180322.pdf Thanks for the link BG. What a wonderful example of due process. It makes me proud to be a Brit even though Dave P may whinge about how much the lawyers involved were paid! I have considered you previous post in response to Brian and I fear you and I will have to agree to disagree on a number of points. I don’t believe the UK’s accusation is anything like blaming Sheffield when a knife attack occurs. Nevertheless, I take your point that as there is nothing to show that even if it could be proved that Russia made the stuff that was used, it does not mean that Russian agents were ordered by Putin to do the deed and use it. Well, nothing in the public domain that is. I also think you’re applying a bit of a Western mindset when you ask what reason Putin could possibly have to do such a thing before the Russian elections and the World Cup. He presents himself as the great protector of a Russian nation that the West want to enfeeble. A good reason for Russian citizens to support him and be willing to keep him in power despite his domestic excesses don’t you think? I also ask myself is it likely that he would be remotely worried about his popularity suffering because some nations threaten to boycott the World Cup. He could play the victim card and get out of jail free on that one. You may have gathered I am not his number one fan. The recent report from Amnesty International is an eye opener. His propaganda machine, his vicious suppression of political dissent, and the lack of freedom of speech in Russian says it all for me about how trustworthy he or his lackeys are. If you were to take a set of weighing scales and put all these factors into each pan there is in my mind proof beyond reasonable doubt that he was behind these attempted murders. When he or his representatives deny it the tongues in their cheeks are all too visible to the people of Russia. He has left them in no doubt that to cross him involves the threat arbitrary detention, imprisonment, torture and/or death. I estimate that the possibility of such a threat is way more important to him than a football tournament. https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/europe-and-central-asia/russian-federation/report-russian-federation/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted April 14, 2018 Author Share Posted April 14, 2018 Violet1956 - 2018-04-13 8:14 PM Bulletguy - 2018-04-13 7:00 PM I forgot to post this judicial report which is worth a read. One part mentions Porton Down Chemical and Biological Analyst which imo, shows how cautious Porton were being in their choice of words. Blood samples from Sergei Skripal and Yulia Skripal were analysed and the findings indicated exposure to a nerve agent or related compound. The samples tested positive for the presence of a Novichok class nerve agent or closely related agent. https://www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/sshd-v-skripal-and-another-20180322.pdf Thanks for the link BG. What a wonderful example of due process. It makes me proud to be a Brit even though Dave P may whinge about how much the lawyers involved were paid! I have considered you previous post in response to Brian and I fear you and I will have to agree to disagree on a number of points. I don’t believe the UK’s accusation is anything like blaming Sheffield when a knife attack occurs. Nevertheless, I take your point that as there is nothing to show that even if it could be proved that Russia made the stuff that was used, it does not mean that Russian agents were ordered by Putin to do the deed and use it. Well, nothing in the public domain that is. I also think you’re applying a bit of a Western mindset when you ask what reason Putin could possibly have to do such a thing before the Russian elections and the World Cup. He presents himself as the great protector of a Russian nation that the West want to enfeeble. A good reason for Russian citizens to support him and be willing to keep him in power despite his domestic excesses don’t you think? I also ask myself is it likely that he would be remotely worried about his popularity suffering because some nations threaten to boycott the World Cup. He could play the victim card and get out of jail free on that one. You may have gathered I am not his number one fan. The recent report from Amnesty International is an eye opener. His propaganda machine, his vicious suppression of political dissent, and the lack of freedom of speech in Russian says it all for me about how trustworthy he or his lackeys are. If you were to take a set of weighing scales and put all these factors into each pan there is in my mind proof beyond reasonable doubt that he was behind these attempted murders. When he or his representatives deny it the tongues in their cheeks are all too visible to the people of Russia. He has left them in no doubt that to cross him involves the threat arbitrary detention, imprisonment, torture and/or death. I estimate that the possibility of such a threat is way more important to him than a football tournament. https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/europe-and-central-asia/russian-federation/report-russian-federation/ As i said, not the best of analogies but the point i was trying to make was because Novichok was first developed by Russian scientists, that doesn't mean that country is the only possible source in the world though i recognise there will always be those that want it to be. In fact it's not even a big secret as some probably imagine it must be. From Phillip Parsons, Professor of Chemistry at Imperial College, London; "The novichok agents are relatively simple organophosphorus compounds that competent chemists could make from globally traded ingredients, if they had a specific molecular target in mind. “The whole family of novichoks are quite easy to make,” said Phil Parsons, an organic chemistry professor at Imperial College London. “You could synthesise them in any good chemistry lab, though you would have to take stringent safety precautions to prevent the staff being poisoned.” https://www.ft.com/content/f7619e96-3cc3-11e8-b9f9-de94fa33a81e https://www.imperial.ac.uk/people/p.parsons I don't think we have any scientists on OAL and certainly not in Chatterbox, but to prove my point further, the formula can even be found on the internet; https://alchetron.com/Novichok-agent And if that still doesn't convince, Dr Vil Mirzayanov, the Russian scientist who helped develop it even published the formula in his book "State Secrets: An Insider's Chronicle of the Russian Chemical Weapons Program".......available on Amazon or at any good bookstore! ;-) https://www.amazon.co.uk/State-Secrets-Insiders-Chronicle-Chemical/dp/1432725661/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1523658213&sr=8-1&keywords=state+secrets So what the above tells me is under the right conditions and by people who know what they are doing.....this agent could be made virtually anywhere. From the few Russian people i've met personally during my travels, many hang out in Montenegro, a fair percentage of Russian living in Estonia and to a lesser extent, Lithuania, viewpoints are a 'mixed bag'. Some dislike Putin whilst others speak highly of him. Like May he's a political leader so the differing views are understandable. I don't underestimate him.....he's not daft, but that doesn't mean i trust him implicitly. Just as i don't implicitly trust May either and i think she's handled this case pretty badly from the outset. Motives is a real head scratcher because quite frankly i can't see what Putin would have to gain. This same question has been asked many times on a number of other forums i read and nobody can come up with anything remotely credible. So as for state sanctioned i'm afraid i just don't buy it and the whole case is full of so many holes. May said that no country other than Russia had the combination of “the capability, the intent and the motive” to carry out such an attack, yet from what i've found this is not necessarily true. So i think that point is misleading. May also said about the Skripal's and the police officer, "doctors have indicated that their condition is unlikely to change in the near future, and they may never recover fully," yet the police officer walked out after a couple of weeks and Yulia now discharged too. Sergei is said by the hospital to be "making very good progress" and "expected to be discharged in due course". So May hasn't done so well on that one either! May also said, “We assess that more than 130 people in Salisbury could have been potentially exposed to this nerve agent," yet just three were admitted and 48 tested and cleared by A&E. And remember we have consistently been told this was a 'military grade' nerve agent they were exposed to. Five to eight times more deadly than VX. I will try and put Johnsons whopper of a lie to one side as it's just too embarrassing. Who on earth votes these clowns into office?? In 2014 the Judicial Inquiry into the death of Litvinenko, poisoned by polonium-210 which left a trail of easy to follow complicity back to the front door of Russia, and who was Home Secretary at the time of the inquest? Treezer the Terrible! And what was her response back then? Err well, apart from a few noises, not very much! Alexander Litvinenko solved his own murder; Theresa May merely foresaw her own embarrassment. In January 2014 the home secretary did her best to head off any inquiry into the Russian’s 2006 death. So much polonium, so little time. “The findings are so serious,” she said, “that it is vital to take a very long time to think seriously about all the things I am not going to do.” “It’s not business as usual,” May whimpered, cowering at the dispatch box. “We’ve done lots and lots of really heavy stuff to Russia already.” She’d even had a word with Panini to try to get the Russian 2020 World Cup sticker album cancelled. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jan/21/theresa-may-pulls-all-punches-with-putin-over-litvinenko-killing Marina Litvinenko, whose husband was poisoned with radioactive polonium in 2006, told Sky News "nothing was done" following a public inquiry into Mr Litvinenko's death. She suggested Theresa May, home secretary at the time of the inquiry, has failed to act over her husband's murder. Mrs Litvinenko also called on the Conservative Party to return any donations from Russian-linked individuals or businesses if they cannot determine the origin of the cash. It comes after The Sunday Times revealed Russian oligarchs and their associates have registered donations of more than £820,000 to the Tories since Mrs May became Prime Minister. https://news.sky.com/story/alexander-litvinenko-widow-pm-did-nothing-after-my-husbands-death-11285681 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 Bulletguy - 2018-04-13 1:53 PM pelmetman - 2018-04-13 11:55 AM Yet Bullet knows its got nothing to do with the Russians *-) ......... If you'd bothered to read the OPCW summary the source cannot be determined, exactly as Porton Down said. So until you get a signed affidavit from Putin you're not going to accept Russia was involved? *-) ......... It's just as well those of us in the real world don't have such unattainable standards for making a judgement call ;-) ........... Although you clearly have no issues about making similar judgements about Brexit or the Tories (?) ......... So basically you're just a typical loony lefty windbag (lol) (lol) (lol) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted April 14, 2018 Author Share Posted April 14, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-04-14 9:07 AM Bulletguy - 2018-04-13 1:53 PM pelmetman - 2018-04-13 11:55 AM Yet Bullet knows its got nothing to do with the Russians *-) ......... If you'd bothered to read the OPCW summary the source cannot be determined, exactly as Porton Down said. So until you get a signed affidavit from Putin you're not going to accept Russia was involved? *-) ......... It's just as well those of us in the real world don't have such unattainable standards for making a judgement call ;-) ........... Although you clearly have no issues about making similar judgements about Brexit or the Tories (?) ......... So basically you're just a typical loony lefty windbag (lol) (lol) (lol) ......... If believing in due process and basic common law makes me a "loony lefty windbag", then i'm proud to be thought of as such. Naturally if due process was discarded with over any case involving yourself, (i'm sure we can drum up a few nice juicy false allegations), you will dutifully oblige and enter incarceration without question.......won't you? If i had my way it would be a lifetime penal servitude with hard labour. I'd even pay good money to come and laugh at you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 Bulletguy - 2018-04-14 3:54 PM pelmetman - 2018-04-14 9:07 AM Bulletguy - 2018-04-13 1:53 PM pelmetman - 2018-04-13 11:55 AM Yet Bullet knows its got nothing to do with the Russians *-) ......... If you'd bothered to read the OPCW summary the source cannot be determined, exactly as Porton Down said. So until you get a signed affidavit from Putin you're not going to accept Russia was involved? *-) ......... It's just as well those of us in the real world don't have such unattainable standards for making a judgement call ;-) ........... Although you clearly have no issues about making similar judgements about Brexit or the Tories (?) ......... So basically you're just a typical loony lefty windbag (lol) (lol) (lol) ......... If believing in due process and basic common law makes me a "loony lefty windbag", then i'm proud to be thought of as such. Naturally if due process was discarded with over any case involving yourself, (i'm sure we can drum up a few nice juicy false allegations), you will dutifully oblige and enter incarceration without question.......won't you? If i had my way it would be a lifetime penal servitude with hard labour. I'd even pay good money to come and laugh at you. It's funny how you don't seem to have a problem condemning any one who's not a loony lefty without due process? ;-) ......... How very Corbynista *-) ......... No doubt you'll be applying for a job at Momentum's Stasi HQ should he get the keys to No 10? :D ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted April 14, 2018 Author Share Posted April 14, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-04-14 4:08 PM Bulletguy - 2018-04-14 3:54 PM pelmetman - 2018-04-14 9:07 AM Bulletguy - 2018-04-13 1:53 PM pelmetman - 2018-04-13 11:55 AM Yet Bullet knows its got nothing to do with the Russians *-) ......... If you'd bothered to read the OPCW summary the source cannot be determined, exactly as Porton Down said. So until you get a signed affidavit from Putin you're not going to accept Russia was involved? *-) ......... It's just as well those of us in the real world don't have such unattainable standards for making a judgement call ;-) ........... Although you clearly have no issues about making similar judgements about Brexit or the Tories (?) ......... So basically you're just a typical loony lefty windbag (lol) (lol) (lol) ......... If believing in due process and basic common law makes me a "loony lefty windbag", then i'm proud to be thought of as such. Naturally if due process was discarded with over any case involving yourself, (i'm sure we can drum up a few nice juicy false allegations), you will dutifully oblige and enter incarceration without question.......won't you? If i had my way it would be a lifetime penal servitude with hard labour. I'd even pay good money to come and laugh at you. It's funny how you don't seem to have a problem condemning any one who's not a loony lefty without due process? ;-) ......... Brian perfectly summed up your inanity in your own thread over this latest silly quip you've latched on to. The logic was wasted on you though as it was obviously beyond you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 Bulletguy - 2018-04-14 4:42 PM pelmetman - 2018-04-14 4:08 PM Bulletguy - 2018-04-14 3:54 PM pelmetman - 2018-04-14 9:07 AM Bulletguy - 2018-04-13 1:53 PM pelmetman - 2018-04-13 11:55 AM Yet Bullet knows its got nothing to do with the Russians *-) ......... If you'd bothered to read the OPCW summary the source cannot be determined, exactly as Porton Down said. So until you get a signed affidavit from Putin you're not going to accept Russia was involved? *-) ......... It's just as well those of us in the real world don't have such unattainable standards for making a judgement call ;-) ........... Although you clearly have no issues about making similar judgements about Brexit or the Tories (?) ......... So basically you're just a typical loony lefty windbag (lol) (lol) (lol) ......... If believing in due process and basic common law makes me a "loony lefty windbag", then i'm proud to be thought of as such. Naturally if due process was discarded with over any case involving yourself, (i'm sure we can drum up a few nice juicy false allegations), you will dutifully oblige and enter incarceration without question.......won't you? If i had my way it would be a lifetime penal servitude with hard labour. I'd even pay good money to come and laugh at you. It's funny how you don't seem to have a problem condemning any one who's not a loony lefty without due process? ;-) ......... Brian perfectly summed up your inanity in your own thread over this latest silly quip you've latched on to. The logic was wasted on you though as it was obviously beyond you. Given the choice I prefer my inanity to your insanity 8-) ........ Just sayin :D .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted April 14, 2018 Author Share Posted April 14, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-04-14 5:42 PM Bulletguy - 2018-04-14 4:42 PM Brian perfectly summed up your inanity in your own thread over this latest silly quip you've latched on to. The logic was wasted on you though as it was obviously beyond you. Given the choice I prefer my inanity to your insanity 8-) ........ Dispensing with due process with due process which apparently you want is pretty insane.....tho' as i've said elsewhere somehow i doubt you'd be so comfortable if it actually was applied to you. You're pretty good at talking the bullcrap talk......but a complete failure when faced with logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 Bulletguy - 2018-04-14 8:18 PM pelmetman - 2018-04-14 5:42 PM Bulletguy - 2018-04-14 4:42 PM Brian perfectly summed up your inanity in your own thread over this latest silly quip you've latched on to. The logic was wasted on you though as it was obviously beyond you. Given the choice I prefer my inanity to your insanity 8-) ........ Dispensing with due process with due process which apparently you want is pretty insane.....tho' as i've said elsewhere somehow i doubt you'd be so comfortable if it actually was applied to you. You're pretty good at talking the bullcrap talk......but a complete failure when faced with logic. Is that left wing logic as spouted by Comrade Corbyn? ;-) ........ Well given his choice of chums I'll go with my gut feeling :-| ..........and frankly Corbyn's logic turns my guts >:-( ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted April 14, 2018 Author Share Posted April 14, 2018 Russia’s foreign minister has claimed Sergei and Yulia Skripal were not poisoned by nerve agent novichok, but a separate chemical possessed by the UK and US. Sergei Lavrov said Moscow had received information from a laboratory in Spiez, Switzerland suggesting the Russian double agent and his daughter were exposed to a non-lethal substance known as BZ. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/skripals-skripal-russia-nerve-agent-bz-novichok-poison-salisbury-attack-latest-update-a8304841.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet1956 Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 If it was BZ then it is a little strange that the OPCW didn't find it when they did their analyses including that of blood samples taken from the victims that they oversaw. I believe that this quite obviously tosh from the Russian propaganda machine and utterly devoid of credibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted April 15, 2018 Author Share Posted April 15, 2018 Violet1956 - 2018-04-14 11:10 PM If it was BZ then it is a little strange that the OPCW didn't find it when they did their analyses including that of blood samples taken from the victims that they oversaw. I believe that this quite obviously tosh from the Russian propaganda machine and utterly devoid of credibility. Don't be too hasty Veronica. The public have only been privy to a summary of the report whilst the full information was classified to both UK and Russia. The accused party is hardly likely to keep shtum if they find anything there which the accuser is not being open about with their own people.....and lets face it during the whole case May has made some pretty odd conflicting statements which turned out to be misleading (and thats being kind!) not to mention the blatant lie Johnson got caught out with. However i think it important that Spiez confirm this if correct though feel it very likely they may be bound by client confidentiality restrictions. If so then we are left in a "she says/he says" state of limbo and finger pointing. The actual name and structure of the toxin was in the classified report so only available to UK and Russia. Also nowhere in the OPCW summary did it mention 'novichok' referring instead to it as "a toxic chemical - allegedly a nerve agent".... "the name and structure of the identified toxic chemical are contained in the full classified report of the Secretariat, available to States Parties." The other important bit is this; Samples were returned to the OPCW Laboratory for subsequent analysis by OPCW designated laboratories. This is the Swiss laboratory website. https://www.babs.admin.ch/en/ueberuns/org/gbls.html Spiez Laboratory is a Swiss institute that works to protect against nuclear, biological and chemical threats and hazards. The primary vision of Spiez Laboratory is of a world without weapons of mass destruction. Spiez Laboratory has been providing support and capability on an international scale for over 25 years. https://www.gcint.org/spiez-laboratory-what-the-recognition-means/ For those with a distrust of what they see as 'Russian propaganda sites' the news is carried by many 'nice' western msm sites. Reuters; https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-russia-skripal-lavrov/russias-lavrov-says-skripals-may-have-been-poisoned-by-substance-russia-never-made-idUKKBN1HL17G Independent; https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/skripals-skripal-russia-nerve-agent-bz-novichok-poison-salisbury-attack-latest-update-a8304841.html ABC News; http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/russia-trace-western-made-nerve-agent-uk-samples-54468326 New York Post; https://nypost.com/2018/04/14/russia-swiss-lab-analysis-shows-nerve-agent-designed-in-west/ Mirror; https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/russia-claims-poison-used-against-12363136 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 Bulletguy - 2018-04-14 10:49 PM Russia’s foreign minister has claimed Sergei and Yulia Skripal were not poisoned by nerve agent novichok, but a separate chemical possessed by the UK and US. Sergei Lavrov said Moscow had received information from a laboratory in Spiez, Switzerland suggesting the Russian double agent and his daughter were exposed to a non-lethal substance known as BZ. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/skripals-skripal-russia-nerve-agent-bz-novichok-poison-salisbury-attack-latest-update-a8304841.html So you prefer to believe the Russian propaganda spin machine? ;-) ........... There's clearly no hope of you ever accepting reality 8-) ......... Looks to me like CA has harvested your brain cells and forgotten to put them back in (lol) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted April 15, 2018 Author Share Posted April 15, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-04-15 8:41 AM Bulletguy - 2018-04-14 10:49 PM Russia’s foreign minister has claimed Sergei and Yulia Skripal were not poisoned by nerve agent novichok, but a separate chemical possessed by the UK and US. Sergei Lavrov said Moscow had received information from a laboratory in Spiez, Switzerland suggesting the Russian double agent and his daughter were exposed to a non-lethal substance known as BZ. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/skripals-skripal-russia-nerve-agent-bz-novichok-poison-salisbury-attack-latest-update-a8304841.html So you prefer to believe the Russian propaganda spin machine? ;-) ........... There's clearly no hope of you ever accepting reality 8-) ......... Propaganda spin exists on both sides of the fence...just as it has for years, especially in politics. I prefer keeping an open mind and questioning certain matters rather than slavishly following whatever my own Government, be it left or right, tells me to believe. If i have reason to be suspicious they are being economical with the truth, then i will question...just as i did over Iraq with Bush/Blair so political persuasions doesn't cloud my questioning. Johnson has lied, that much is a known fact, and May has history of lying and misinformation (not just specifically on this case) yet you blindly follow without question. Has Putin or Lavrov lied over anything concerning the case? I cannot be certain so i've been looking on both sides of the fence.....not just one. For me flinging an allegation at Russia as being "highly likely" isn't enough to 'convict'. Then there is the suggestion of state sanctioned assassination which puts this on a scale of 1-10 right up at 10, the highest level, the most serious possible. Yet what we've ended up with is a very amateurish botched attempt to kill Skripal using 'a toxic chemical' (to use OPCW words) who Putin could easily have dispensed with during Skripal's six years of incarceration, unknown and unseen by the rest of the world. A single shot from a suppressed silencer pistol would have had him dead in an instant and given his killer ample time to disappear so whoever wanted him dead, didn't do very well. Compare this case to Litvinenko's is looking at chalk and cheese. A man able to give police a very detailed background of his FSB, MI6 and MI5 activities, his exact whereabouts and company the day he was attacked, and a visible radioactive trail leading right back to the front door of Russia.....yet May who was HS at the time prayed Owen would drag his inquiry out and not ask too many 'awkward' questions, and she froze the assets of Lugovoy and Kovtun who had long flown the nest. Oh and she gave the Russian Ambassador a ticking off, told the country “we’ve done lots and lots of really heavy stuff to Russia", and had a word with Panini to try and get the Russian 2020 World Cup sticker album cancelled.......which are now on open sale. This time she's gone a step further and banned Prince William and Harry from attending the World Cup which i'm told both are big football fans so i gather they aren't best pleased and won't be voting Tory again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 Bulletguy - 2018-04-15 5:02 PM I prefer keeping an open mind Did Bullet just say that?????? 8-) ......... Dam those Russians are clever *-) ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted April 15, 2018 Author Share Posted April 15, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-04-15 6:47 PM Bulletguy - 2018-04-15 5:02 PM I prefer keeping an open mind Did Bullet just say that?????? 8-) ......... Dam those Russians are clever *-) ....... Have you taken to reading Twitter now because your meaningless mutterings become more 'tweet like' every day with each post you make? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 Bulletguy - 2018-04-15 10:43 PM pelmetman - 2018-04-15 6:47 PM Bulletguy - 2018-04-15 5:02 PM I prefer keeping an open mind Did Bullet just say that?????? 8-) ......... Dam those Russians are clever *-) ....... Have you taken to reading Twitter now because your meaningless mutterings become more 'tweet like' every day with each post you make? Where as yours are more "Twit like" (lol) ............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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