Barcobird Posted May 25, 2018 Share Posted May 25, 2018 There have been quite a few various threads about inverters over the years but as technology speeds along I thought it best to seek up to date advice. I am considering something like 600w pure sine connected to the leisure battery. Having been on the road for several months now you get to find out what you need and don't need. Mainly for boys toys I need to charge a laptop, drone etc etc, there are a lot of inverters on the market but don't want a cheap Chinese thing that will either fry whatever I am charging or pack up after a few months. Any advice on suitable models would be appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted May 25, 2018 Share Posted May 25, 2018 You are right there are so many. Chinese doesn't necessarily mean rubbish, some of the electronics coming out of China now (some being made for top name electronics companies) is good quality. Suggest that rather than look for a brand, you look at the efficiency rating. Some can be a very poor 70% and others in the 90's. That may be a better guide to quality than anything else as the poorer units probably won't even list the efficiency? We would suggest that you buy a 13amp plug in voltmeter, like that in the photo below for about £5, that tells you the Inverter output, it won't always be 230v. We have seen 280v on one motorhome. The UK National power grid is now so stable with exceptionally high quality power we take it for granted it will always be close to 230 - 240v. Don't expect the same from an Inverter. The meters are also useful for seeing what mains power you get at a camp site, again we have seen it in the low 200's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barcobird Posted May 25, 2018 Author Share Posted May 25, 2018 Thanks, I have seen many of your comments over the years and a lot make sense! Like the meter for checking voltage level. I am not so sure when you say the cheaper ones are worth looking at, not that I wish you suggest what I buy but as an example I have listed one being advertised for £30 postage paid which seems silly cheap to me. Does this fit the criteria that you mentioned ? Specifications Power: 600W Output voltage waveform: Pure sine wave Output voltage:220±10(If you are not using a 220V voltage in your home, please buy it carefully.) Input voltage: 12V Output frequency: 50Hz Low-voltage protection: 9.5v / 20v High-pressure protection: 16v / 30v No-load current:=0.3A Conversion rate: 93% or more Material:Aluminum magnesium alloy shell + imported components Size:17.8*10.5*6.5cm Net weight:600g Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted May 25, 2018 Share Posted May 25, 2018 There are cheaper 600w Inverters than that around, so the price wouldn't put me off. 93% efficient sounds quite good. You will note the current draw when it is 'on', but not necessarily active, is enough to drain the batteries over time so suggest you get into the habit of turning it off when not in use. Maybe even install a 40amp Maxi Fuse (the bigger size which is easier to use as a 'switch') in the cabling to the batteries which you can withdraw to cut power to the Inverter, even when it is 'off'. I would guess that 600w is it's peak output, so maybe consider plugging in devices with nothing more than a 230v, 2 amp max draw which can equate to 30 amps'ish draw on the batteries? Obviously that level of power usage may drain a 100Ah battery 'flat' (50%DOD) in less than two hours. Your Motorhome Power Controller/charger should comfortably supply the power you need while driving, not all will. You might prefer to only plug the Laptop, etc into the Inverter while driving? That way the Alternator will be supplying the power, which will hopefully be less than 20amps, through the Power Controller to the habitation batteries/Inverter. Note to anyone else reading this : some Charge/Power controller units will be overloaded by heavy use, like more than 2a/230v appliances. If you get the voltmeter, it would be interesting to hear what voltages you see in general use? Note that most of the Inverters generally available supply the European 220v mains not the 235 - 245v we are used to. Shouldn't make any difference, just making you aware there will be a difference between the Inverter and the 13a sockets in your house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted May 25, 2018 Share Posted May 25, 2018 Barcobird - 2018-05-25 2:08 PM I have listed one being advertised for £30 postage paid which seems silly cheap to me. It seems silly cheap to me too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikefitz Posted May 25, 2018 Share Posted May 25, 2018 Consider something from the Victron range, https://www.es-store.co.uk/product_list.php?top=Inverters&cat_desc=Victron-Phoenix-Inverters---180-1200vA---230v&cat_id=72&show_menu=14 Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barcobird Posted May 26, 2018 Author Share Posted May 26, 2018 mikefitz - 2018-05-25 8:35 PM Consider something from the Victron range, https://www.es-store.co.uk/product_list.php?top=Inverters&cat_desc=Victron-Phoenix-Inverters---180-1200vA---230v&cat_id=72&show_menu=14 Mike Thanks Mike, they look a bit more like it. Have you actually used one or just heard about them ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sshortcircuit Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 All my boys toys are charged straight from a USB charger. I have a 150w modified sine for the 24volt electric bike battery. Ask yourself if you actually need an inverter and unless you need to charge an electric toothbrush modified sine will work ok Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikefitz Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 Barcobird - 2018-05-26 8:44 PM mikefitz - 2018-05-25 8:35 PM Consider something from the Victron range, https://www.es-store.co.uk/product_list.php?top=Inverters&cat_desc=Victron-Phoenix-Inverters---180-1200vA---230v&cat_id=72&show_menu=14 Mike Thanks Mike, they look a bit more like it. Have you actually used one or just heard about them ? I have installed their larger inverters in marine applications and was impressed with the quality. Victron are a excellent Euro based company and their products fully comply with CE standards. All the data /instructions are well written and they have a help facility on line and phone. I suspect that, like most electronic companies, their products are assembled outside the EU ( India?) I have personally used their other products, solar controller and battery charger in my van. Again excellent products built to a high standard. In my old life I was an electronics design engineer and ran my own electronics company designing and building motor control systems, so I think I am a reasonable judge of quality or otherwise of electronic items. Some of the low cost inverters will, I guess, give reasonable service, others may fail taking your expensive laptop with it, or worse compromising electrical safety. Its a kind of, " you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' " Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 mikefitz - 2018-05-27 1:47 PM Some of the low cost inverters will, I guess, give reasonable service, others may fail taking your expensive laptop with it, or worse compromising electrical safety. Its a kind of, " you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' " Mike, 'compromising electrical safety' is something almost all Inverters do. They put out a life endangering 230v without any of the usual safety measures that UK Regulations would usually stipulate for a fixed installation. I suggest anyone thinking of using an Inverter should first ask themselves your question, especially for devices that are handheld like Hairdryers. Obviously any device that does run from an Inverter would be safer if it was'Double Insulated', where possible. One owner with a modern motorhome was so uptight about Reverse Polarity, to the point of being paranoid, but was totally unconcerned about using a number of devices on an Inverter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plwsm2000 Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 mikefitz - 2018-05-25 8:35 PM I have installed their larger inverters in marine applications and was impressed with the quality. Victron are a excellent Euro based company and their products fully comply with CE standards. All the data /instructions are well written and they have a help facility on line and phone. I suspect that, like most electronic companies, their products are assembled outside the EU ( India?) I have personally used their other products, solar controller and battery charger in my van. Again excellent products built to a high standard. In my old life I was an electronics design engineer and ran my own electronics company designing and building motor control systems, so I think I am a reasonable judge of quality or otherwise of electronic items. Some of the low cost inverters will, I guess, give reasonable service, others may fail taking your expensive laptop with it, or worse compromising electrical safety. Its a kind of, " you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' " Mike Just because a product is CE marked and so should comply with the LVD (low voltage directive) it doesn't mean it is safe. IMHO, CE marking such a product is not strictly necessary as it has no intrinsic function (it cannot be used on its own and needs something plugged into it (like a hairdryer!) for it to have some use). When something else is connected, this will affect its emc (and safety) performance so these things are usually treated as a component and CE marked at the system level. IMHO, CE marking is only useful to know for the LVD part so is not totally useless. Do these types of inverter have a floating 230V output (i.e. not grounded)? They are obviously more dangerous if the output "neutral" is grounded to the MH chassis. If not, you would need to somehow touch both output wires to get a severe shock (don't rely on this though!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 plwsm2000 - 2018-05-28 11:44 AM Do these types of inverter have a floating 230V output (i.e. not grounded)? They are obviously more dangerous if the output "neutral" is grounded to the MH chassis. If not, you would need to somehow touch both output wires to get a severe shock (don't rely on this though!) The question "Do these types of inverter have a floating 230V output (i.e. not grounded)?" is one many people ask, because there does not appear to be a standard that the 230v output from an Inverter must conform to, for example is the Neutral connected to Earth or not? Very few of the smaller units show a separate 'Earth' tab connection point. They might internally wire the 12v Negative to join the 230v Neutral and so potentially pick up an Earth, but never seen it published. However some Inverter systems, such as House systems, or Motorhome standalone Solar solutions, won't have the 12v battery bank 'earthed'. If there is a standard, it doesn't seem to be essential for Inverter suppliers to stipulate what standards they follow as none of the ones I have seen talk about any protection built in to the 240v output at all. Yet there are often several lines of text dedicated to the 12v input side, such as Short Circuit protection, under voltage protection (typically 11v), overvoltage protection (typically 15v), etc. Never seen an Inverter advert list any 230v specification details or protection, such as over voltage or under voltage. Some quote "220v plus or minus 10%". However this is just the operating range, not any guarantee that it will shutdown should 280v be reached, etc. Nor do you see any mention of short circuit protection on the 230v output, which would be pretty useful and safety conscious. On 'proper' mains 230v, we have a Residual Current Device (RCD), which is a life-saving device which is designed to prevent a person from getting a fatal electric shock if they touch something live. Why are there no Standards that stipulate an Inverter should contain the same protection? Some we have opened don't even have a protection fuse in the 230v output, let alone a breaker. The above is primarily relevant to the usual 3,000w and under usual Installations in motorhomes. The very expensive 'fixed' installations must be connected to the RCD/breakers by law. A 'temporary' installation doesn't. This youtube video is awful to watch, but does highlight serious safety issues with Inverters. Potential overvoltage, etc : Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikefitz Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 Interesting response to my post. For a fixed inverter set up in a motor home, the feed to the sockets must be via a RCD to comply with the regulations. All the high power inverters supplied by Sterling, Victron and Mastervolt, for example, can be supplied with a built in RCD or can have their outputs neutral bonded to ensure any RCD fitted will operate correctly. Sterling devotes a section in their instructions regarding this, page 3, https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0658/7343/files/instructions_Eng_Fre_343a45e8-6e0d-49f8-b949-978ea43af453.pdf?731 Without any protective circuit, a centre tapped output inverter has a floating output and only '110 volts' per each output, but it does not comply. Because inverters are now available at stupid low prices there is a trend to regard them as 'safe toys'. Some of the high power inverters for sale on eBay are supplied with plugs for cig lighter sockets! Any reputable EU based company is going to take the compliance seriously and ensure the design and range of tests meets the regulations. I suspect some of the manufactures at the low cost end of the market regard designing the CE label as adequate. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barcobird Posted June 6, 2018 Author Share Posted June 6, 2018 Thank you all for taking the time to contribute to my topic it is appreciated, however we seemed to have deviated a little. I understand that safety is of vital importance especially when being surrounded by inflammable materials, however my initial question was whether anyone posting uses an inverter. It would be helpful to know make and model, output and your thoughts good or bad. The ones mentioned earlier seem very good. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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