Roof Problems

[shez-nellie]

Before Christmas myself and husband checked the motorhome only to find that in the bad weather we'd had water in. Initially we thought it was water tracking in through a door seal, but on closer inspection we realised that the roof above the door has completely lifted. It's about a 2 foot section. I'll attach a photograph to this posting.

 

When Neil looked closer he realised there was no screwholes in this section. Presumably Swift manufacture them with screws holding the roof on?

 

We took it down to Caravan Hospital and they too said, there's no screws or evidence of screw holes holding the roof on?!! As the van is 6 months outside of warranty they said they would put in a goodwill claim to Swift. Unfortunately we heard yesterday that Swift don't want to know and are willing to do nothing to help us. The attitude of the woman we spoke to couldn't care less! The quote we've had to fix this problem is £450 plus parts and VAT. I reckon the cost will be around £800 at least by the time we receive the final bill, depending on the cost of the parts.

 

We can't believe that a manufacturing fault as serious as this can be completely ignored by the manufacturer. Their argument is that manufacturing defects normally show up within the first year or so. But how can you check for this type of fault unless you take the roof off!!!

 

We've today faxed the HP Company to ask their advice on this.

 

If anyone has any helpful suggestions then they would be gratefully received.

 

Sheryll

 

PS Have tried to attach photo, but it won't let me. If you want me to send you some photos, please let me know along with your e-mail address.

[Ralph]

My first van was a Swift (Sundance) and I would never buy another from Swift. I assume that the Swift owners club is some kind of self help group.

Somone once told me that Swift Quality Control was an oxymoron :-D

 

Best of luck with your problem but mine were all in warranty and were still a pain in the bum...

 

PS: If you want to attach a picture you'll need to shrink it first. I believe 100Mb is the largest allowed.

[Terrytraveller]

Hi Sheryll,

 

Sorry to hear of your problems, have a look at this link

 

http://www.motorcaravanning.co.uk/vehicles/sixyear_rule.htm

 

I have used the 6 year rule on a few occaisions with other faulty goods (not a motorhome) and gained satisfaction, got to be worth a try.

 

I have had three Autocruisers and had water entry problems with one of them, Autocruise offered to send a couple of chaps down to collect it for a free repair, they also supply parts FOC for me to fix well out of warranty, and I didn't have to mention the 6 year rule either. So not all manufacturers are shy, but those that are should be named.

 

Good Luck - Regards Terry

[breakaleg]

hi terry, have i just read that autocruise have been bought by some firm that makes them a profit and then moves on?

it will be interesting to see if they have the same good will policy.

pete

[chris]

Hope you get a result from the finance company Sheryl.

 

Good luck

Chris and Gog

[Guest starspirit]

We were looking at a Swift van at Shepton but decided against based on their past reputation.

 

Autocruise are still good.

 

Autosleeper used to be absolutely brilliant but my experience predates the Sea group takeover - can any one else advise current policy.

 

Does anyone have any views on Autotrail please, as I have heard some stories about their inability to cope and lack of interest as well?

[Terrytraveller]

Hi Sheryl,

 

Just noticed the Motorcaravanning link to the DTI site is a bit out of date, so here is the DTI ruling regarding Faulty goods - looks like you have a good case.

 

http://www.dti.gov.uk/consumers/fact-sheets/page24700.html

 

Yes Pete I did read that Autocruise have had a change of ownership, I hope the customer service remains the same. As far as I can see it is a relatively new company and has not amalgamated with other big names, so its administration hasn't had time to gather lots of dead wood and bad working practises.

 

Rgards Terry

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Sheryll

First things first.  I assume you bought this van new?  Can you say how old it is, and where you bought it?

Second point, it is the seller, and not the manufacturer, who has liability to you for the quality of what they sell.  The warranty is merely in addition to your rights under Sale, and Supply, of Goods legislation.

Third point, the defect could not have been apparent to you until the problem you describe manifested.  That is when the reasonable person is expected to know about it, and it is not until then that you are expected to commence trying to get it rectified.  The clock starts from when you found the defect. 

The fact that it appears to be a manufacturing defect should indicate that the goods, as supplied, always were defective, but it is still the supplier/seller who has to put that right at his expense.

You may need to establish, somehow, that there should have been screws at that point on the roof.  If you cannot, it is possible it could be claimed the roof construction is normal, and the damage the result of exceptionally bad weather.  If that were the case, however, the damage should be covered under your motorhome insurance.

Hope this helps.

[Vernon B]

Hi Sheryll, as indicated by others there's no easy remedy for these problems. It's certainly worth following up with your HP company because, as I understand it, they have a joint responsibility for pursuing your complaint against the dealer and/or Swift. You might also like to contact your local trading standards office to obtain a thorough understanding of your statutory rights - I've found them particularly helpful in giving advice but not acting for you on these relatively "high ticket price" purchases. I personally would avoid getting a solicitor involved because you'll soon be out of pocket by far more than the estimated repair costs.

 

I think it's certainly worth following up on Brian's suggestions but in the final analysis you might have to face up to getting the repair done and then pestering the dealer or Swift for a contribution - but be prepared for a frustrating and drawn out process - they don't know how to write reply letters! May also be worth looking at what the Small Claims Court can offer in terms of putting them under some pressure.

 

Of course the attitude of supplier's like this is quite ridiculous and self defeating. What will cost you a lot of heart ache and £800 could be repaired in their workshops for perhaps £200/£300 pounds. If they'd done that you'd be singing their praises. As it is this thread will have already lost them several sales at several thousand pounds per unit. Not the sharpest knives in the box are they?

 

Good luck

 

Vernon

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Vernon B - 2007-01-23 5:27 PM Hi Sheryll, as indicated by others there's no easy remedy for these problems. It's certainly worth following up with your HP company because, as I understand it, they have a joint responsibility for pursuing your complaint against the dealer and/or Swift. You might also like to contact your local trading standards office to obtain a thorough understanding of your statutory rights - I've found them particularly helpful in giving advice but not acting for you on these relatively "high ticket price" purchases. I personally would avoid getting a solicitor involved because you'll soon be out of pocket by far more than the estimated repair costs. I think it's certainly worth following up on Brian's suggestions but in the final analysis you might have to face up to getting the repair done and then pestering the dealer or Swift for a contribution - but be prepared for a frustrating and drawn out process - they don't know how to write reply letters! May also be worth looking at what the Small Claims Court can offer in terms of putting them under some pressure. Of course the attitude of supplier's like this is quite ridiculous and self defeating. What will cost you a lot of heart ache and £800 could be repaired in their workshops for perhaps £200/£300 pounds. If they'd done that you'd be singing their praises. As it is this thread will have already lost them several sales at several thousand pounds per unit. Not the sharpest knives in the box are they? Good luck Vernon

I would council very strongly against paying for this repair out of your own pockets, unless and until all other avenues fail. 

However, you should try to minimise damage from the ingress.  Cover the leak with gaffer tape, tape over polythene sheet, or put a tarpaulin over the roof, to keep the wet out, if you have to.

It is vital you contact the seller quickly and advise them - in writing - that you believe you have a serious and damaging defect in the motorhome, and when, and how that came to your attention. 

Then take the van to them as quickly as possible, show them the problem, and your temporary repair, and ask them what they want you to do with the 'van: leave it with them or take it away to bring back later. 

They probably won't want to pay for the repair, but they may be able to persuade Swift to assume responsibility for the repairs on their behalf.  If they can, it may be the best remedy since the repair would then, presumably, be undertaken at Swift's works under ideal conditions.  So, if you can, keep the dealer onside, despite your potentially conflicting interests.

Do contact, and preferably visit, Trading Standards as soon as possible.  They will give sound advice on how to proceed so that you don't prejudice your own position.

Following that visit, write again to the dealer confirming your actions, and their instructions to you, and press for a date for the repairs - if not already arranged.

If they claim there is no defect, because all Swifts are made that way, you'll need to consider whether it is worth trying to give the lie to that, or whether to claim under your insurance for a repair due to exceptional weather.  However, it would be worth speaking to your insurer first, to see if they have access to a "tame" expert who could rule on whether the construction, as you report it, could be considered "normal".

[Mel B]

We wouldn't touch a Swift again either! Whilst we've been talking to some dealerships about replacing our Rapido 709F a few of them have commented about their build quality and we have gleamed that even though Swift motorhomes are a bit better than they were, they are still falling short of the mark in their quality and manufacturing standards.

 

I wouldn't expect Swift to accept fault, that would be too much to ask for, however, make sure that you contact someone other than the 'disgruntled female in the office' as she's probably just got the short straw and had to be the one to ring you to fob you off. When we were having problems with our Swift back in 2002/03 I built up a very good rappour with one of the girls in the office who was responsible for customer care (yes it does exist!) and she eventually had got so fed up of it all she just jacked in the job - she was really sick to death of having to fob people off when she knew that it was Swift who were in the wrong.

 

I suspect that if you can show, as others have suggested, that there has been a genuine manufacturing fault, then Swift are liable as they produced the faulty goods in the first place, the fact that the fault wasn't immediately obvious doesn't meant that it's not their fault and doesn't negate the need for them to rectify it out of their own funds. The only thing I can think that would negate this is if your motorhome is quite old and they could reasonably say it's taken too long for the supposed fault to be detected.

 

So to questions really is - can you give us some more info about your vehicle please?

 

 

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Mel B - 2007-01-23 8:41 PM We wouldn't touch a Swift again either! Whilst we've been talking to some dealerships about replacing our Rapido 709F a few of them have commented about their build quality and we have gleamed that even though Swift motorhomes are a bit better than they were, they are still falling short of the mark in their quality and manufacturing standards. I wouldn't expect Swift to accept fault, that would be too much to ask for, however, make sure that you contact someone other than the 'disgruntled female in the office' as she's probably just got the short straw and had to be the one to ring you to fob you off. When we were having problems with our Swift back in 2002/03 I built up a very good rappour with one of the girls in the office who was responsible for customer care (yes it does exist!) and she eventually had got so fed up of it all she just jacked in the job - she was really sick to death of having to fob people off when she knew that it was Swift who were in the wrong. I suspect that if you can show, as others have suggested, that there has been a genuine manufacturing fault, then Swift are liable as they produced the faulty goods in the first place, the fact that the fault wasn't immediately obvious doesn't meant that it's not their fault and doesn't negate the need for them to rectify it out of their own funds. The only thing I can think that would negate this is if your motorhome is quite old and they could reasonably say it's taken too long for the supposed fault to be detected. So to questions really is - can you give us some more info about your vehicle please?

Mel

I cannot state this too strongly, under British law the liability lies with the seller, not with Swift.  It is to the seller, and not to Swift, that Sheryll must turn.

[shez-nellie]

Thank you all for your comments and helpful suggestions.

 

To answer some of the questions, we are the second owners, however we bought the van when it was only 3 months old.

 

Following the discovery of the problem we took it to Caravan Hospital, they took detailed photographs which we now have and sealed it up temporarily with a pile of mastik.

 

Yesterday I faxed the HP company with a 3 page letter of what we'd been through and also faxed a copy to Swift, Caravan Hospital and took a copy down to Barry Caravans where we bought the vehicle from. I also provided them with photographs of the fault.

 

There is a whole history of things that happened to us since we bought the van and in fairness to Barry Caravans they have bent over backwards to try and help wherever possible.

 

Barry Caravans are very concerned about this defect and have never ever seen this happen to any motorhome before. I think they are looking into it, but we have yet to hear from the HP Company. I understand they have a department that deals with these types of problems and that they would take this very seriously. I'll chase them up on Thursday if I haven't heard anything by then.

 

Thanks for the info about the 6 year rule, that's very interesting and I will pass that gem of information onto Barry Caravans.

 

Sheryll

[Vernon B]

Hi Sheryll, glad to hear that you appear to be making progress. The pics are certainly dramatic and it would appear that the roof has been under some tension and simply sprung apart. This would be in keeping with the opinion that fixing screws were not present or perhaps have rusted away. I'm no expert on motorhome construction but I see no reason why the fault shouldn't be rectified satisfactorily and fairly easily - but it might be worth checking the other side and the state of the seam all round. Try and establish if stainless steel screws were used - if not, get them fitted now.

 

On the matter of the "six year rule" I have to say I didn't find the reference article particularly illuminating and note that the comment was that you "may" be covered for six years without qualifying what was meant by the word "may". Most of these apparent consummer safe guards can only be tested through the courts - a high risk strategy for the likes of us, and large companies know that.

 

I recall a letter (I think last year) in MMM in which a chap brought an American RV import only to find later that it exceeded the permissable width to be used on UK roads. Apparently he had a witness to the fact that he had raised the issue with the dealer prior to purchase and was assured that the vehicle was "legal". Having presented the problem to the dealer he was told to get lost and took the matter to court having being assured by his solicitor that he had "an open and shut case". In the event the buffoon masquerading as a judge decided that as no one had ever been charged with the offence of driving an oversize RV in the UK the dealer was acting reasonably and dismissed the case. Our friend, who had purchased the RV in anticipation of his retirement, was then presented with a bill for costs in excess of £100,000 and forced into bankruptcy. No I haven't made it up.

 

Moral of the story don't rush to litigate, negotiate.

 

Hope things will soon be resolved for you

 

Vernon

 

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Sheryll

Woah!  I think you may now have too many irons in the fire at once, the result of which seems likely to be confusion all round!

You haven't said how old the van is.  You said you got it when 3 months old, and that it is now six months out of warranty.  But how old is the van?

When you discovered the defect, why did you go to the Caravan Hospital and not to to the seller, Barry Caravans?

Could this history of things that happened to you since buying the van, have any bearing on the roof damage?

My advice at this stage remains that it is the seller is who liable for the repair so, for now, forget the HP company (who will almost certainly say you must give the seller a chance to do the repairs before they will take further action) and forget Swift.  You may have sympathy with the seller, you may even like them, but it will be them, if anyone, who have to put this mess right.  It may not be "fair" but it is the law!

Gather up all the photographs and any other documentation, letters, sales invoice etc.  Phone your Local Trading Standards office, make an appointment, and go to see them taking the above with you.  Tell everything you have done to date, who you have spoken to etc.

Do this in the very near future, and see what they advise.  They spend all day on these kinds of problems, and will give you better advice on where you stand, legally, than any of us can, because they will be able to see all the documents, look at the dates and will know what rights, at this stage, you may have. 

In the meantime, I'd say don't go back to Barry Caravans talking about "six year rules", but do talk to Trading Standards first.  It is possible that for reasons unclear to any of us that rule may not be applicable.  If it is, it is better invoked correctly, rather than just being mentioned verbally.  If it is applicable, it will apply against Barry Caravans (because you will be unable to invoke it against Swift, with whom you have no contract), and they may interpret any mention of it as indicating you are considering legal action.  I still think you need to keep Barry onside, for as long as possibe, and most firms clam up if they think you intend suing!  To coin a phrase, a peck of dry powder is worth a barrel full of wet!

Trading Standards!

[Basil]

Wow!! Not very helpful to you I am afraid, but that certainly looks like a marque to avoid buying new or second hand.

I always thought Swifts were good caravan makers, what has happened with their Motorhomes!!!

 

Bas

[shez-nellie]

Thanks for everyones helpful comments.

 

In reference to the question on the age of our van, it was first registered in June 2003, which makes it approx. 3 1/2 years old. We purchased it in October 2003.

 

The reason that we first went to The Caravan Hospital is that we had booked the van in for it's annual check and service, and the problem was discovered between the booking and the actual date the van went in (2 days later). This was the first time anyone had seen the van and they then initiated the "good will" claim from Swift themselves before anyone else had seen it. We have only just received the result of the claim and are now begining to look at further options open to us.

 

We have done a comprehensive letter detailing all the problems we have had with the van in the last 3 years, including times and dates and durations of resolving said problems. This letter was sent to the HP company, Barry Caravans, Swift and Caravan Hospital and are now waiting responses from the HP company as to our next available course of action.

 

We will, however, be chasing the HP company in the next day or so as to an initial response and their recommendations. Depending on what they say, Trading Standards may be on option.

 

Sheryll, has faxed Barry Caravans today with the article you signposted us to about the 6 year ruling saying to them "I discovered this piece of information, I'm not sure whether you are aware of it, or whether it applies in this case." They haven't come back to us with anything yet. She also popped down to see them yesterday as they had never seen anything like this happen before. They have been quite helpful over the last 2 days, as indeed they always have been when we've been dealing with them.

 

We'll keep you posted as to progress or "lack of" on this issue!

 

Many thanks again,

 

Neil

[Basil]

I know nothing about the legalities of these things so I am unable to comment on them. However as an observation, if it is so unusual for this to happen as you have been told what could Swift possibly hope to gain from refusing to repair even as a good will gesture, they would gain a lot more credibility if they had and if it is so unusual they would hardly be setting a precident.

You have my utmost sympathy and I just hope that Swift come to their senses and sort it out for you as there appears to me to be no way that you could have caused that problem.

 

Good luck i hope you get satisfaction.

 

Bas

[Vernon B]

Here's another thought Sheryll, February's edition of the Caravan Club Magazine, out now, includes a profile of Peter Smith, Chairman of Swift Group, on page 9 telling us what a great fellow he is. A carefully penned, none confrontational, letter to him with enclosed photgraphs might produced results - nothing like going right to the top. By the way you might want to quote his remarks in reply to the question "Your one piece of advice to a caravaning newcomer?":-

 

"Talk to an owner before you buy and always look under the skin to make sure you buy a product that is well designed and well built."

 

You couldn't make it up ...

 

 

Vernon

[shez-nellie]

Hi Everyone, many thanks for all the advice and info but I'm posting this because hurray!!! We have a result!!

 

Barry Caravans have stepped in and said they will sort it out. They said regardless of warrranty this is a manufacturing defect, which themselves nor Caravan Hospital have never seen before! I've already taken our van down to them today as they wanted to sort it out asap. They are paying for the repair and then are seeking recourse off Swift.

 

They have always been ready to help and step in when needed. I can't praise and thank them enough! We've had some major strife with this van down the 3 years that we've owned it and Barry Caravans have always done their utmost to help.

 

Not only that, because we'd had enough of our van, they've done us the deal of the century on a new van! They are a great firm to deal with. Would recommend them to anyone.

 

Sheryll :-D

[Vernon B]

Excellent outcome. Now why didn't Swift see the sense of handling the problerm like Barry Caravans? I for one will remember this dealer's name next time I'm thinking of buying.

 

Happy travelling in your new 'van

 

Vernon

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

shez-nellie - 2007-01-29 2:51 PM Hi Everyone, many thanks for all the advice and info but I'm posting this because hurray!!! We have a result!! Barry Caravans have stepped in and said they will sort it out. They said regardless of warrranty this is a manufacturing defect, which themselves nor Caravan Hospital have never seen before! I've already taken our van down to them today as they wanted to sort it out asap. They are paying for the repair and then are seeking recourse off Swift. They have always been ready to help and step in when needed. I can't praise and thank them enough! We've had some major strife with this van down the 3 years that we've owned it and Barry Caravans have always done their utmost to help. Not only that, because we'd had enough of our van, they've done us the deal of the century on a new van! They are a great firm to deal with. Would recommend them to anyone. Sheryll :-D

Wot, anuvver Swift?  Well done!

[Guest peter]

Swift............A name to remember I think for future reference. :-(

[Ralph]

Funny, I also got a good deal trading my Swift back (to Brownhills in my case) to get rid of it, so perhaps there is something to be said for them?

 

 

[alf schofield]

 

Hi ive had these problems with my van, that I brought from marquis motor homes ,the roof started to crack up and craze paving they said it was cosmetic, I first contacted auto sleepers and they said the van had been involved in an accident at some time and was old damage that had been repaired and very poor repair they quoted £3.800 to repair, I brought the van when it was two years old, ive had the van two years now so now four years old, its taken me 8 months to get it sorted out ,With the help of my son who has just done his law degree, and of course a solicitor, at a cost of £550. I do have a picture of the roof as well, marquis had paid £300 pounds to have it fixed the first time and did not disclose this to me when I brought the van,

I hope this helps and yes would not by from them