"Camping behaviour" on Aires

[StuartO]

I always understood that you are not supposed to use an Aire to spread your stall out (eg tables and chairs, awning) especially if doing so will reduce the space available for other people to park.  You see people doing it of course, sometimes greedily and shamelessly. 

On a very busy Aire you also see people squeezing into spaces which are clearly not supposed to be parking slots, so determined are they to park up when the Aire is pretty obviously full.  (And you see people laying stuff out to try to discourage or prevent parking close to them, i.e. defending their territory.)

On some Aires there is effectively a small pitch provided because the parking spaces are separated in some way, for example by logs, and there may be space for sitting out or there may be picnic tables provided nearby or there are adjacent grassed areas which are obviously not available as a parking space for motorhomes, so no reason why you can't put your chairs out there if you wish.  But many Aires are busy parking places and by sunset there will usually be motorhomes parked in marked bays cheek by jowl and you will probably be told in no uncertain terms by other MH owners to move your stuff if you overlap or block a second space.

I see no reason why we can't make use of available space as long as we are not preventing anyone else using the Aire but the fundamental "rule" (sometimes re-inforced by official notices) is no "camping behaviour" on Aires and this means not setting out your stall in any way, not even a couple of chairs.  If you want a camping pitch, use a campsite.

Does anyone disagree with that?

[pottypam]

Think you have got it about right, Stuart. We try to arrive early to get a corner spot so that we can tie the dogs up outside where they will be out of the way. That did cause a problem on one Aire where our neighbours had set up their table and were getting ready to eat. Unfortunately they had a cat with them. One of our dogs saw it and gave chase. As OH hadn’t secured the lead properly, dog and lead ran straight through the “dining room”! Luckily nothing was broken and no wine spilt.

[vindiboy]

Aires are French, French do as they like. if you can't beat em , join em., do not expect things abroad to be English , what would be the point of travel otherwise ? we have never had a problem in all the years we have been traveling.

[fesspark]

as an old timer traveller in motorhomes to many european countries I have learnt that the French, Dutch and German m,homers want a plot and as much of yours as you are prepared to let them get away with, over the years I could write a book on our experiences.probably the worst one was on a Spanish campsite I went on my designated pitch and had to get staff to get a dutchman to move his car off a large piece of ours, next day when we went out he put it back. one german next to us had a smoker and smoked trout purchased raw from a super market,and sold them around the site, needless to say we had to put up with the smoke and smells and could not sit outside when he was smoking,one more in Javea years ago, we paid for a service pitch and the dutchman on the sharing drainage hole blocked and connected his pipe to the water so we could not use it. so again we had to go and complain, arrogant europeans.

[Bulletguy]

vindiboy - 2018-06-30 3:09 PM

 

Aires are French, French do as they like. if you can't beat em , join em., do not expect things abroad to be English, what would be the point of travel otherwise ? we have never had a problem in all the years we have been traveling.

Pretty much it in a nutshell. Brits are used to rules and have an unhealthy obsession with them! My entire route down south to Dover (M6/M5/M40/M20) is accompanied by incessant bongs from the gps warning of average speed cams and max limits, some as low as 40mph. Once over 'the pond' the first bong i get warns me of "max speed 81mph". I can live with that...no problem!

[StuartO]

Some of the above comments are about campsite pitches, whereas I was referring specifically to Aires and the " no camping" behaviour as a general rule.

My own experience is that Brits are just as bad as any other nationality when it comes to (a minority) which behave selfishly and grab as much as they can and are willing to be brass-necked about hanging on to it, but there are always going to be those sorts, regardless of whether there are rules or conventions and you just have to try to deal with them as best you can.  It's a minority of selfish and inconsiderate people who are the problem rather than a particular nationality. 

For example I arrived (mid-afternoon) at a relatively remote French Aire where a Dutchman had his table and chairs out and a couple of Brits, clearly travelling together, had parked full-out awning to full-out awning with a dining table arrangement between the vans, blocking at least one parking space.  There were two other MHs parked and also a local authority minibus, so 6 vehicles in total.  The book said there was supposed to be space for 10 MHs.  No-one was volunteering to move.  I asked the Brits to close up and got no joy so I pressed the point by telling them the Aires was supposed to hold 10 MHs - and then reluctantly one of them did.  The Dutchman was well over to the side so didn't need to move but I spoiled his sunny spot when I pulled into the gap which was thereby created and I didn't feel any guilt for doing so.  I have no compunction asking people to move if they have spread out their stall and that's the only way I can get in.

[Bulletguy]

StuartO - 2018-06-30 6:17 PM

 

For example I arrived (mid-afternoon) at a relatively remote French Aire where a Dutchman had his table and chairs out and a couple of Brits, clearly travelling together, had parked full-out awning to full-out awning with a dining table arrangement between the vans, blocking at least one parking space. There were two other MHs parked and also a local authority minibus, so 6 vehicles in total. The book said there was supposed to be space for 10 MHs. No-one was volunteering to move. I asked the Brits to close up and got no joy so I pressed the point by telling them the Aires was supposed to hold 10 MHs - and then reluctantly one of them did.

As there was just 6 vehicles (including yours) on an Aire for 10 vehicles.....i'm hardly surprised you 'got no joy' from asking people to close up and spoiling the Dutch guys sunny spot! In fact i'm surprised they didn't use a few choice words at a foreigner rocking up on an Aire and playing 'policeman'!!

[StuartO]

Bulletguy - 2018-06-30 6:40 PM

StuartO - 2018-06-30 6:17 PMFor example I arrived (mid-afternoon) at a relatively remote French Aire where a Dutchman had his table and chairs out and a couple of Brits, clearly travelling together, had parked full-out awning to full-out awning with a dining table arrangement between the vans, blocking at least one parking space. There were two other MHs parked and also a local authority minibus, so 6 vehicles in total. The book said there was supposed to be space for 10 MHs. No-one was volunteering to move. I asked the Brits to close up and got no joy so I pressed the point by telling them the Aires was supposed to hold 10 MHs - and then reluctantly one of them did.

As there was just 6 vehicles (including yours) on an Aire for 10 vehicles.....i'm hardly surprised you 'got no joy' from asking people to close up and spoiling the Dutch guys sunny spot! In fact i'm surprised they didn't use a few choice words at a foreigner rocking up on an Aire and playing 'policeman'!!

Perhaps I didn't explain well; other vehicles (including the  minibus) were parked badly and getting the Brits to close up (and necessarily spoiling the Dutchman's open spread) was the only way I could get it at all.  Only one vehicle had to move and he was one of the pair who were spreading their stall out very selfishly.  I simply asked him politely to close up and when he showed reluctance to do so, even though it was obvious that I couldn't otherwise park up at all, pointed out that the Aires Book said there were ten spaces.  If he still showed reluctance to move I would probably have suggested (politely) that he was being very selfish and then asked if he would prefer me to block both of them in.

[Deffheads]

What no tables and chairs or even beach towels reserving places for 'friends' to arrive? Try finding a space in Spain during the winter months.

[Solomongrundy]

Too many ex-caravanners and C&MC members taking their rule books with them – when in France find Aires that aren't overcrowded and let it all hang out ….....

[fesspark]

Cannot say I agree with this site but Thats your choice to cause an eyesore on public land I presume you would not object to travellers setting up stall on your local vehicle park

[Guest pelmetman]

We've been to several aires that appear to have a permanent resident or two ;-) .........

 

But as a Brexit voter I don't presume to tell them what to do in "their" country :D .............

 

 

[fesspark]

Im,e with you on that.Fesspark

[StuartO]

pelmetman - 2018-06-30 11:15 PMWe've been to several aires that appear to have a permanent resident or two ;-) .........But as a Brexit voter I don't presume to tell them what to do in "their" country :D .............

I don't recall ever seeing any evidence of any policing of "camping behaviour" on Aires and certainly telling a Frenchman, in France, to comply with what you think are the rules which he should obey in order to allow you to squeeze into what he has claimed as "his space" would be brave indeed and I would not try it.

But I think that point strays from the issue here, which that there is a general rule, commonly supported by official notices on the Aires, that there should be no "camping behaviour" and we, guests in their Country, should not disregard that rule, even if some other motorhomers, including some French, do so.  I have no respect at all for motorhomers who feel they can "go with the flow" and follow suit, taking up extra space on a confined Aire and spreading their stuff out, just because some others do.  Likewise those who overstay the published maximum duration of stay or leave a mess behind.  If we stoop to that sort of thing we are choosing to behave badly entirely of our own volition and there is really no excuse for doing that.

There may also be problems with space-grabbing behaviour on Spanish campsites and other places too but I'm talking about Aires in France and respecting the general rule which exists in France that there should be no "camping behaviour" on Aires, even if other people are blatantly doing it.

[geordy paul]

I agree with your sentiments there. Two wrongs don't make a right.

We are rapidly becoming public enemy number one in Scotland

and else where because of the behaviour of some.

 

[PJay]

StuartO - 2018-07-01 8:04 AM I'm talking about Aires in France and respecting the general rule which exists in France that there should be no "camping behaviour" on Aires, even if other people are blatantly doing it.

The problem with rules in France. They are for us foreigners , NOT for the nationals!!When a country has a rule that BANNED drivers (usually drink related) are still allowed on the roads , be it has to be one of the "cars", with engines like lawn mowers.! They are still one the road driving, and can still cause an accident. What do you expect!PJay

[Barryd999]

Blimey Stuart! Have you ever considered becoming a Caravan Club site warden? (lol)

 

What is all this "no camping behaviour" law nonsense? Ive never seen such a notice or enforcement and I suspect Ive probably stayed on more aires over the past decade than anyone.

 

Ive seen a few vans that might be taking the pish a bit but generally most people are respectful of space, especially IMO the French. In fact the bloody French seem to have an obsession with parking as close as possible.

 

If I cant put chairs etc out I Wouldnt bother stopping and if I turned up at an aire and it was full because people had spread out I wouldnt start complaining and rearranging the aire just because the book says it should take ten, I would just think tough luck and go and find another one.

 

Then again the kind of Aires I stay on seem completely different to the ones your finding by the sound of it.

 

These are Aires and I dont suppose putting a few tables or chairs out would be a problem. That last one (Gypsy Campsite) looks like its being inconsiderate but its at Lac du Laouzas in the mountains in the Tarn region in southern France. About 20 large bays. Now I guess you could say at a push I could squeeze another van in there but nobody would be able to open their doors. Snooze you lose! :D

 

 

 

[snowie]

I thought Aires were supposed to be for “passing through” , people en route to somewhere.

If you want to establish a camp for longer than a couple of nights then pay your money and stay on a campsite.

My project for the rest of this year and future continental and UK trips is to find and stay in attractive places.

I don’tthink aires will be first choice, too many rules for other people to break !

Regards, Snowie

[Solomongrundy]

Barry, you are so right about finding, or not finding, decent spacious Aires.

I'm sure many who use Aires only go to 'crowded' Aires to make sure they are one amongst many to try and avoid being g*ssed or worse.

Here's a few overcrowded Aires from our last jaunt into France in May -

 

[Barryd999]

They look terrific. Better than any campsite.

 

It just goes to show that its daft trying to dictate or explain "Aire behaviour" as they vary so much. I would avoid an Aire like the one below at Erquy in Brittany like the plague. I took this photo a few years ago when we were passing on the scooter because I couldnt believe just how rammed it was. I Cannot imagine anything worse and if that is peoples impression of what an Aire is like its no wonder so many flock to campsites but the fact is if you do your homework and go off the beaten track a bit there are some fantastic Aires.

 

They vary so much. Some private ones are really like CL's here with facilities, loads of space and of course your able to spread out a bit. Ive even been on a fair few free public ones with hookup, space and even on one in the South of France which had a luxury shower / wet room. There are plenty that are designed for a longer stay than just passing through. That one I posted above in the Tarn by the lake goes down in price the longer you stay there. Lady comes and takes the money each evening and there is never a question of how long you are staying. People stay for weeks!

 

I Wouldnt stay here full stop.

 

[Solomongrundy]

Mind you, I wouldn't like to tell this guy what to do with his space ......

[StuartO]

Barryd999 - 2018-07-01 8:44 AMBlimey Stuart! Have you ever considered becoming a Caravan Club site warden? (lol) What is all this "no camping behaviour" law nonsense? Ive never seen such a notice or enforcement and I suspect Ive probably stayed on more aires over the past decade than anyone.Ive seen a few vans that might be taking the pish a bit but generally most people are respectful of space, especially IMO the French. In fact the bloody French seem to have an obsession with parking as close as possible.If I cant put chairs etc out I Wouldnt bother stopping and if I turned up at an aire and it was full because people had spread out I wouldnt start complaining and rearranging the aire just because the book says it should take ten, I would just think tough luck and go and find another one.Then again the kind of Aires I stay on seem completely different to the ones your finding by the sound of it.These are Aires and I dont suppose putting a few tables or chairs out would be a problem. That last one (Gypsy Campsite) looks like its being inconsiderate but its at Lac du Laouzas in the mountains in the Tarn region in southern France. About 20 large bays. Now I guess you could say at a push I could squeeze another van in there but nobody would be able to open their doors. Snooze you lose! :D

Clearly you don't frequent the sort of Aires where it get's crowded enough for space-grabbing to be a problem but do you really feel that "Snooze you lose" always applies, so the minority who "take the pish" as you put it prevail and selfishness gets rewarded, because it should never be challenged?  Maybe you've never seen any signs but I certainly have and the need to avoid "camping behaviour" is certainly mentioned in the All the Aires book.  I don't know that it's a "law" but I've never said that it was, although I suppose it might be in some localities; what gave you that idea?

The example I referred to was on a rural Aire which you would not normally expect to get crowded and it was during the fuel tanker strike in Normandy, where fuel was running out.  I only had a quarter tank and had been unable to fill up, so had the Dutchman, who was planning to hole up for a few days until fuel became available.  The two Brits I mentioned were on their way back from Spain and maybe that's where they developed the sense of entitlement to grab as much space as they wanted and set up their family dining layout between the MHs.

And how does any of this entitle you to take a personal swipe at me with you comment about being a Caravan Club Warden?  How is that even relevant?  I can understand that you prefer to steer clear of crowded Aires and have an aversion to unnecessary rules - indeed so do I - but why sound so exasperated about something which your personal experience has given little or no experience of?

I suggest that it's a matter of fact that there is a general rule not to overstay on Aires, nor to indulge in "camping behaviour", nor leave a mess behind and all I'm encouraging others to do is what you would call "not take the pish" when it takes up space which others might well need?

[Bulletguy]

 

Live and let live eh Stuart? Let's face it the idea of most Aires is a free (usually) or extremely cheap overnight. Some which have few vans on may stay more than one night....the one i use at Bray Dune after leaving the ferry at Dunkerque i usually spend two nights parked up before setting off. This year an elderly French couple were next to me when i arrived and still there when i left. Maybe for some it's a very cheap 'holiday'.

 

In Germany on Autobahn service areas you can overnight as long as you like. Stay a week or more if you like the place (most are actually very pleasant). Many have fixed metal tables and seating so no need to get your own out....some even have barbeque points and the service area restaurants are open 24/7. As British we aren't used to this kind of welcome and greeted with threatening signs at our own service areas "no overnight stays" and "max limit 2 hours" etc.

 

It's less restrictive and authoritarian in most countries outside UK.

[Barryd999]

StuartO - 2018-07-01 1:27 PM

Barryd999 - 2018-07-01 8:44 AMBlimey Stuart! Have you ever considered becoming a Caravan Club site warden? (lol) What is all this "no camping behaviour" law nonsense? Ive never seen such a notice or enforcement and I suspect Ive probably stayed on more aires over the past decade than anyone.Ive seen a few vans that might be taking the pish a bit but generally most people are respectful of space, especially IMO the French. In fact the bloody French seem to have an obsession with parking as close as possible.If I cant put chairs etc out I Wouldnt bother stopping and if I turned up at an aire and it was full because people had spread out I wouldnt start complaining and rearranging the aire just because the book says it should take ten, I would just think tough luck and go and find another one.Then again the kind of Aires I stay on seem completely different to the ones your finding by the sound of it.These are Aires and I dont suppose putting a few tables or chairs out would be a problem. That last one (Gypsy Campsite) looks like its being inconsiderate but its at Lac du Laouzas in the mountains in the Tarn region in southern France. About 20 large bays. Now I guess you could say at a push I could squeeze another van in there but nobody would be able to open their doors. Snooze you lose! :D

Clearly you don't frequent the sort of Aires where it get's crowded enough for space-grabbing to be a problem but do you really feel that "Snooze you lose" always applies, so the minority who "take the pish" as you put it prevail and selfishness gets rewarded, because it should never be challenged?  Maybe you've never seen any signs but I certainly have and the need to avoid "camping behaviour" is certainly mentioned in the All the Aires book.  I don't know that it's a "law" but I've never said that it was, although I suppose it might be in some localities; what gave you that idea?

The example I referred to was on a rural Aire which you would not normally expect to get crowded and it was during the fuel tanker strike in Normandy, where fuel was running out.  I only had a quarter tank and had been unable to fill up, so had the Dutchman, who was planning to hole up for a few days until fuel became available.  The two Brits I mentioned were on their way back from Spain and maybe that's where they developed the sense of entitlement to grab as much space as they wanted and set up their family dining layout between the MHs.

And how does any of this entitle you to take a personal swipe at me with you comment about being a Caravan Club Warden?  How is that even relevant?  I can understand that you prefer to steer clear of crowded Aires and have an aversion to unnecessary rules - indeed so do I - but why sound so exasperated about something which your personal experience has given little or no experience of?

I suggest that it's a matter of fact that there is a general rule not to overstay on Aires, nor to indulge in "camping behaviour", nor leave a mess behind and all I'm encouraging others to do is what you would call "not take the pish" when it takes up space which others might well need?

Didnt mean to offend you Stuart re the "Caravan Club Warden" comment. I though most people on here realised I had a bit of an evil sense of humour. (lol) I just thought it was funny this vision of a Brit motorhomer arriving and ordering everyone about and getting them to clear out their camping gear, maybe get the tape measure out and check they were 6m apart. :D No offence intended but sorry if I did offend you.No you didnt say it was law not to use camping equipment on an Aire, you said " fundamental "rule" (sometimes re-inforced by official notices)". You also mentioned what Vicarious books say in their book which should actually be called "Some of the Aires" Rather than "All the Aires". Since when did they become the official authority on Aire behaviour?I wouldnt condone selfish behaviour on an Aire to be honest but in my experience its rare. What I like about Aires is they are pretty easy going places that are generally self policing. You roll in when you like, leave when you like and generally everybody gets along fine. If a few people extend their awnings or put a few tables out that make space a bit tight so what? Its hardly crime of the century.

[aandy]

I agree with pretty much all of the original post, up to the "fundamental rule". While it is often mentioned, I've never seen it written nor have I encountered anyone who could identify any particular rule or law regulating the use of aires. Indeed, the only time I've seen anyone cite such a rule he concluded that "camping behaviour" was not prohibited. This was a discussion on another forum (facts or fun, can't remember which) and the chap in question was a German (Gerhard IIRC) who had read the law from which he believes the common understanding derives. It was his contention that the section in question actually refers to the right to park anywhere that it is not explicitly prohibited, which includes the right to remain in the vehicle overnight, and not to the use of designated aires.

 

 

Even if there is such a rule or law, the question still remains does it apply to everything we know as an aire and do the municipal authorities have any right of derrogation or amendment. Many aires do not have notices prohibiting camping, and the fact that some do cannot be taken as meaning that such prohibition is universal. Indeed, that some providers feel the need for such notices could indicate that the behaviour they seek to regulate is permissible elsewhere.

 

I've never heard of anyone being held to account by anyone in authority for the sort of transgression under discussion here, and seems to me that so long as we all use a bit of sense and consideration all will be well. If anyone has a definitive answer, however, it would be interesting to know what the true legal position is.