Brock Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 I'll put this as a separate topic because the original one seems to have run its course and led to an interesting wider debate. On the CMC forum two extensive threads were closed [one has been re-opened] because of the comments which is why I missed the CMC's response. The CMC posted on the forum: "Many thanks for your feedback and for highlighting the petition to the Club. We do consider motorhome owners when designing, re-designing and reviewing sites for acquisition – looking at the availability of public transport and proximity to local amenities among other things. Many of our existing sites were acquired decades ago when demands from members were different. But as these sites remain popular despite some of them being in locations away from towns, it makes no sense to sell them. We install hardstandings and motor van waste points on all sites as a matter of policy, and we will continue to review what is needed by our members in the future. The Club is a ‘broad church’ and that’s why we try to meet all members’ needs wherever we can. The whole purpose of our name change and revised values is to ensure we do a better job on an ongoing basis of catering for owners of motorhomes as well as caravans. There is arguably scope and demand for another level of stopover, along the lines of a French Aire. However, the establishment of these would have a cost, and there would be planning approval challenges and UK safety requirements (minimum fire safety separation distances for instance) to overcome. It’s worth debating whether the provision of such facilities should be the responsibility of an organisation like the Club, or whether local authorities should mainly provide them (as is the case in some other countries – France and Australia, for instance). There are already some examples of this in the UK, although some of them operate without compliance with the safety separation distances that those same local authorities would insist on for site operators like the Club". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 There is no National legislation that stipulates a distance, it is left to local authorities to determine in consultation with the local Fire Service, (who, no doubt would err on the extreme safety side for obvious reasons) full details at the bottom of this article https://blueskyrecreation.wordpress.com/2015/08/27/spacing-on-camping-pitches-just-what-are-the-rules/ Just for information, however I do believe it is in the 'Big' clubs interest to invoke rules that suit their requirements and setup and enable them to rule out 'Aire' type environments. Just my opinion. Bas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 There is a big difference between what a camper with awning etc who is relaxing on site for several days or longer would desire as a pitch size to what a motorhomer on a one night stopover, maybe arriving late afternoon and leaving in the morning, would see as adequate and on an aire type stopover just a few feet between vans whilst maybe not perfect can often best be described as adequate for the purpose. I understand the club's approach and whilst there may be opportunities for them to provide aire type camping I doubt it is in their financial interest to do so, but unless their views have changed in recent years they might perhaps be more supportive of those who do wish to provide aire type short stays and see them as complementing rather than competing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 Tracker - 2018-08-19 12:32 PM .... I understand the club's approach and whilst there may be opportunities for them to provide aire type camping I doubt it is in their financial interest to do so, but unless their views have changed in recent years they might perhaps be more supportive of those who do wish to provide aire type short stays and see them as complementing rather than competing. Indeed yes,CAMC can hardly claim to be serious about providing for motorhomers unless they give Aire-type locations a proper try. They are after all supposed to be a club rather than an organisation which runs entirely for the financial benefit of its existing pattern of sites. In my view they should not need pushing towards this, they should be actively persuing at least one pilot site catering for overnight stops for motorhomes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 And pigs might fly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyishuk Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 Regarding Aire type facilities, I would enough experience would be gained by those CMC sites that offer overnight stops for those members that use the ferries. Whenever we have taken a short break (not using the ferry) these spaces seem well used as we watch those lucky people come and go. Rgds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandy Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 Brock - 2018-08-17 8:03 AM It’s worth debating whether the provision of such facilities should be the responsibility of an organisation like the Club, or whether local authorities should mainly provide them . This remark completely misses (or perhaps dodges) the point. Aires are not a necessity or a public service but a facility that would be used and enjoyed by a relatively small number of people (including me) and for which those people would (mostly) be willing to pay. Nobody, therefore, has a 'responsibility' to provide them, but it seems reasonable to suppose that organisations like C&MH and C&CC might look seriously at the idea as an additional facility that they provide to their members and a means of generating additional income. If they decide that it is not for them, fair enough, but the question of 'responsibility' is irrelevant and, in my view, merely a red herring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firedecisions Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 The comment about spacing in this article is wrong. It is no longer the Local Authority that decide, but the site owner through there own risk assessment. The Local Fire Service can then challenge the spacing by saying the risk assessment is not "suitable and sufficient" and can issue a notice to the site owner. The Fire Legislation change in 2006 and there is a specific part of that which states where a licence is in force, NO CONDITIONS OF LICENCE CAN APPLY ANY MATTER THAT IS COVERED BY THE FIRE SAFETY ORDER. Also whilst the caravan sites and Control of development act etc still applies , the Guidance (model standards) has been updated for Park Homes (where you stay all year) and Holiday Homes (fixed caravan sites) it has not been updated for touring sites. I have frequently seen the model standards for park homes quoted for touring site which is incorrect. more information on www.firedecisions.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 At what point does it stop being an overnight car park for motorhomes and become camping site? I suspect the usual suspeccts like use of awnings, outside furniture, even a door step would mean it is no longer a car park but has become a caravan site? So there's the legal loophole for an aire? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 As I posted on t'other thread, I don't see it as being in the interest of either club to set up aires across the country, but I do think they could set them up in certain places which are used as transit stops such as near ports, at bottom of M5, and enroute to highlands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don636 Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 I don't really get this aire thing - what is it exactly that people are looking for compared to the campsites that already exist? We have a motorhome and often tour by moving onto a new location every day and just check into a campsite. Is it just down to cost in that, if you have a motorhome and are moving on each day and have no need of any campsite facilities such as space to lounge out (I.e. Camp) a toilet block, laundry or shop etc you just want to rent a bit of space to park your van for the night at no or minimal cost compared to a campsite? We have used a few aires in France as there was nothing else available but we found them to be soulless places with vans crammed in in what was effectively a car park and they did not feel safe being near town centres with all sorts of non camping people walking around. If the argument is just about cost I can't see what incentive there is for existing camping clubs to provide separate aires just for motorhomes - never going to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GJH Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 Regarding spacing distances, whilst it is true to say there is nothing mandatory, the origin is in the 1960 Act via the Model Scheme laid down by DeFRA and administered by Natural England. Local authorities are allowed to vary the elements of the Model Scheme depending on circumstances (though would, no doubt, have some explaining to do if a relaxation was shown to contribute to a disaster). The same spacing has been applied to rallies for the last couple of years after DeFRA/NE became concerned that too many units were being packed into the space available in some locations. See http://www.dmccc.co.uk/Natural%20England%20combined-guidance-final.pdf for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandy Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 Don636 - 2018-08-19 11:17 PM I don't really get this aire thing - what is it exactly that people are looking for compared to the campsites that already exist? We have a motorhome and often tour by moving onto a new location every day and just check into a campsite. Is it just down to cost in that, if you have a motorhome and are moving on each day and have no need of any campsite facilities such as space to lounge out (I.e. Camp) a toilet block, laundry or shop etc you just want to rent a bit of space to park your van for the night at no or minimal cost compared to a campsite? We have used a few aires in France as there was nothing else available but we found them to be soulless places with vans crammed in in what was effectively a car park and they did not feel safe being near town centres with all sorts of non camping people walking around. If the argument is just about cost I can't see what incentive there is for existing camping clubs to provide separate aires just for motorhomes - never going to happen. I guess it's largely down to how you use your van. Sometimes I want to 'camp' (no giggling at the back), lounging and eating outside the van, etc, and on those occasions I'll use a site. Other times I just want somewhere to park overnight and/or to be close to a particular place; or an overnight stop where I don't need to book and can arrive at any time, which is where the type of aires you describe come in. There are then further occasions when I'll use a particular aire because it is simply a very nice place to stop. I have certainly come across aires I would not stay on, but I've also found some in quite stunning locations. If your impression of aires is that they are soulless and overcrowded, I can only suggest that you've been visiting the wrong ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 This 2017 C&MC thread discussed a wish for motorcaravanners to be able to just pay for use of ‘club’ campsites’ motorhome servicing facilities and not need to stay longer-term at the campsite. https://www.caravanclub.co.uk/club-together/discussions/information-technical-tips-advice/motorhomes/motor-homes-servicing-whilst-touring/?p=1 A lot of French campsites offer this option, but it has to be said that regulation/regimentation tends to be less rigorous on most French campsites than on UK ‘club’ sites. There also appears to be a general wish amongst UK motorcaravanners for dedicated motorhome ‘overnighting’ urban parking that would be available all-year-round. Such parking is not seen as necessarily including ’servicing’ facilities and there seems to be no particular aversion to paying for the ability to overnight park. (Though not paying too much, of course!) Whether the UK camping clubs would see supporting such a wish as being something they should do is anybody’s guess, but in any case it would not be the clubs that would be providing the dedicated parking. All of the petitions abiout this have essentially sought to add to a ‘camping’ system that has grown up over time in the UK a very different system that has grown up over time in Continental-Europe. The two systems don’t fit happily together, never will and probably never should. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolero boy Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 along with Grahams 'spacing' info above, the other main objections on the CC forum were... non MH members seeing this as a divisive project, creating something that Caravaners couldn't (wouldn't) make use of... the associated costs of providing something for 'one group' of the membership....at the expense of the other.. MH should make use of other already existing 'facilities' like britstops, pubs tops, CLs etc... of course, the suggestion that the club helped out 'one group' of the membership when lobbying for the abandonment of the caravan MOT plan was quickly dismissed as 'different'.... the caravan club is most definitely still the caravan club and is happy to 'incorporate' MH as long as they tour exactly like caravans do.... it's the lack of understanding of the differences in touring behaviour, that demonstrates how out of touch CC really is.... CC and Aires involvement/provision.....oil and water, I reckon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulmold Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 If councils would allow overnight parking then surely that is all we need. I'm sure we all are willing to pay a nominal amount. Often you will find car parks that allow overnight parking but accompanied by that dreaded sign saying ' no sleeping' or a height barrier. If councils could see past the end of their noses they could see revenue for themselves and also local businesses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 Derek Uzzell - 2018-08-20 9:11 AM . The two systems don’t fit happily together, never will and probably never should. I agree. IF the main clubs ever considered setting up " aires " of any kind in the U.K. they would very likely want to set a booking system for them, as neither club seems too keen ( these days ) on free spirits who turn up un-announced. That would not be in the spirit of spontaneous touring. :-| Just imagine all your favourite aires being fully booked up, months in advance ! :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arthur49 Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 Don636 - 2018-08-19 11:17 PM I don't really get this aire thing - what is it exactly that people are looking for compared to the campsites that already exist? I said in a previous thread that all we need to overnight is a safe space with 'dump' facilities. We do not need EHU or overheated toilet blocks. And, in the case of C&MC, we don't need 10m x10m spaces. My financial circumstances are nobody's business, all I will say is we can afford C&MC charges but we don't consider them value for money so try to avoid using C&MC. Now I appreciate that others may require something different, and thats fine. As I said previously all I want the two Clubs to do is nudge towards my style of overnighting by converting an area of sites specifically for motorhomes with smaller spaces, no EHU (or optional EHU) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 Derek Uzzell - 2018-08-20 9:11 AM ....All of the petitions about this have essentially sought to add to a ‘camping’ system that has grown up over time in the UK a very different system that has grown up over time in Continental-Europe. The two systems don’t fit happily together, never will and probably never should. Why do you say that Derek? If CAMC really wanted to serve its motorhome members it could very easily use its resources and influence to develop some locations for overnight motorhome parking without applying campsite-type spacing between units as if they were developing campsites. They might be urban but needn't be for all of them, for example locations aimed at providing transit stops along main routes. Doesn't it just need a bit of open-mindeness on CAMC's part to start this ball rolling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 Here's the thing, a 'aire' type system exists cross much of country, you can park right next to another unit (motorhome or caravan) sleep the night, use toilet and maybe shower, get a meal and shop, it's kin expensive, noisy, and don't think I've seen black waste disposal, they are motorway services, in some areas such as bottom of M5 they are packed full at this time of year, AFAIK local authorities are quite happy with them, or at least I've not heard of any complaints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don636 Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 I can understand motorhome people not always requiring the full campsite facilities but the only reason for not simply using a campsite must be that you don't want to pay for the facilities you don't want or need and would prefer there to be a simpler and therefore less expensive aire type facilities available. I can't see an existing campsite offering cheaper areas for motorhomes as there would be no way to prevent those people using the campsite facilities anyway. Campsites already provide sites that do not have an EHU thereby reducing the cost a bit. For an aire system to work the facility would need to be an entirely separate location and I can't see the existing clubs being interested in setting this up when their existing model seems to work for them. Ideally towns should set this up to attract visitors but they don't seem interested as they perceive too much downside of attracting undesirable types who don't want to pay campsite fees and leave a mess when they leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GJH Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 paulmold - 2018-08-20 9:31 AM If councils would allow overnight parking then surely that is all we need. I'm sure we all are willing to pay a nominal amount. Often you will find car parks that allow overnight parking but accompanied by that dreaded sign saying ' no sleeping' or a height barrier. If councils could see past the end of their noses they could see revenue for themselves and also local businesses. Too much assumption I'm afraid. As we found at Guisborough several years ago, making facilities available doesn't equate to revenue for the council or businesses. Remember, also, that caravan sites are businesses. Money spent in shops/restaurants from savings on pitch fees is a net zero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolero boy Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 Don, it's not your fault that you do t 'get' Aires...many folk don't....and no amount of 'explanation' will help. Aires users are not only not interested in the unnecessary sefvices (toilet books, EHU etc) that a site generally provides, but they're not interested in booking in advance or strict arrival times etc.. Imagine a local town carpark where cars were prevented from entering until after a certain time....result, frustration and queues....ah yes, queues like we get at CC sites with their arbitrary arrival times, toilet cleaning diary and grass cutting program..... none of this is of any interest to someone wanting to arrive, sleep, go I. the morning.... ...and certainly not pay £25 or more for the 'privilege'.... there are some caravaners whove switched to MHs...there are even some of these who've seen the light and toured abroad, and even some of these who have realised that, when travelling long journeys, a network of stopovers along the route is a great thing to have.... wit ell the multitude of threads on CT that go something like this..... ....I am travelling south to Spain in my caravan in November.....help, where can I find a campsite that's open....? Aires serve many purposes....and those that get them, love them....but if your natural camping habitat is a large pitch, surrounded by kit, complete with arrival times, closed toilets and high fees, how can you understand why anyone else would want something different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolero boy Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 Don, FYI, there are very many sites in France that have an aire nxt door (often as part of the same facility).. there is no sneaking into the showers, or whatever.....all the ones we've been in like this allow access to ALL the site facilities and the lower price is gleaned from having a smaller pitch, set closer to other people (more pitches per acre) and perhaps no EHU.... the aire users are not 2nd class visitors looking to cheat the system, merely folk who need parking (perhaps with access to facilities, it depends on the aire) rather than camping... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 bolero boy - 2018-08-20 11:51 AM Aires users are not only not interested in the unnecessary sefvices (toilet books, EHU etc) that a site generally provides, but they're not interested in booking in advance or strict arrival times etc.. Imagine a local town carpark where cars were prevented from entering until after a certain time....result, frustration and queues....ah yes, queues like we get at CC sites with their arbitrary arrival times, toilet cleaning diary and grass cutting program..... none of this is of any interest to someone wanting to arrive, sleep, go I. the morning.... ...and certainly not pay £25 or more for the 'privilege'.... there are some caravaners whove switched to MHs...there are even some of these who've seen the light and toured abroad, and even some of these who have realised that, when travelling long journeys, a network of stopovers along the route is a great thing to have.... wit ell the multitude of threads on CT that go something like this..... ....I am travelling south to Spain in my caravan in November.....help, where can I find a campsite that's open....? Aires serve many purposes....and those that get them, love them....but if your natural camping habitat is a large pitch, surrounded by kit, complete with arrival times, closed toilets and high fees, how can you understand why anyone else would want something different. The aspect we liked most was the freedom not to stop until we were ready and many aires we used we did not know we were going to stop at until an hour - or less - before we arrived which for us and our style of travel meandering about and exploring an area it was ideal. No registration on arrival, no form filling, no language issues, no faffing about finding a pitch - just drive straight in, park up, kettle on, pay at the machine if needs be - simples. Everyone camps differently and I understand those who like to stay put or be on a big plot but to our way of touring it's what motorhomes were designed to do. If similar facilities were to exist in the UK we would have spent less time touring abroad and certainly some German and Dutch people we met abroad would also have spent more time in the UK. £25 a night is OK for the odd night but if you are touring for a month it adds up to a lot of cash for facilities one neither needs nor wants. Surely it is not asking too much for non aire users to understand the different philosopy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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