Dave Newell Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 Nice idea Brian but didn't you try this not so long ago on here? I'll see about putting a request for further info in my next PMH column. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chas Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 http://www.the caravan.net/images/news/gas regulator blockages.pdf Sorry could not do a direct link, makes interesing reading. chas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 chas - 2007-01-31 4:38 PM http://www.the caravan.net/images/news/gas regulator blockages.pdf Sorry could not do a direct link, makes interesing reading. chas ChasIt's this link, and you're right, it's very interesting. Well found!http://www.thecaravan.net/images/news/gas_regulator_blockages.pdfFrom this, it sounds as though the Gaslow stainless steel tails may well be the answer. They are very long lasting - virtually motorhome lifetime, and are claimed to be available with couplings for most UK and European cylinders. Fit and forget? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest starspirit Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 I don't quite understand how stainless steel which is solid enough to contain high pressure gas and which as such is not known for flexibility can be persuaded to do this particular job without some sort of impermeable lining, unless the hose is plastic or rubber with an extremely fine braided stainless steel lining both inner and outer surfaces? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 Dave Newell - 2007-01-31 4:29 PM Nice idea Brian but didn't you try this not so long ago on here? I'll see about putting a request for further info in my next PMH column. D. True Dave, but I thought it might be worth another whirl! I put it on here, and on the caravan forum as well. Three responses from here, none from the caravanners. Hardly made the ground move! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 starspirit - 2007-01-31 5:24 PM I don't quite understand how stainless steel which is solid enough to contain high pressure gas and which as such is not known for flexibility can be persuaded to do this particular job without some sort of impermeable lining, unless the hose is plastic or rubber with an extremely fine braided stainless steel lining both inner and outer surfaces? From pictures only - it looks as though it is a transparent, flexible, plastic tube with stainless steel braided reinforcement. Claimed life circa 25 years, I believe.If anyone is going to the Birmingham exhibition, it might be worth looking into Gaslow's stand (4251) to give it a prod. Otherwise see ad on p32 of Feb MMM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Newell Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 Always worth a go Brian. having just read through that report I confess my earlier answer regarding operating pressures for various appliances was incorrect, my apologies to anyone who might have been misled by my comments. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Frank Wilkinson Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 I've just ordered the Gaslow stainless steel hoses for my new installation. Despite this I'm still considering investing in a new Truma regulator as a spare.I can't imagine anything more frustrating then the regulator failing on the second day of a long Continental holiday!If anyone's interested I'll report on the hoses when they arrive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peejay Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 A spare regulator doesn't come cheap Frank. After having one fail we got a spare from our supplying dealer for £41 with a discount, usual price is about £50, ouch. I'd agree though, it gives you peace of mind, we're off to colder climes in February and having a dodgy regulator without a readily available replacement is not an option. pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icelander Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Richard quotes - I don't quite understand how stainless steel which is solid enough to contain high pressure gas and which as such is not known for flexibility can be persuaded to do this particular job without some sort of impermeable lining, unless the hose is plastic or rubber with an extremely fine braided stainless steel lining both inner and outer surfaces? Yes I was wondering that too. Is there also an increased sparking risk with stainless covered pipes rubbing together? Thanks Brian - just read your post after I posted this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 peejay - 2007-01-31 11:36 PM A spare regulator doesn't come cheap Frank. After having one fail we got a spare from our supplying dealer for £41 with a discount, usual price is about £50, ouch. I'd agree though, it gives you peace of mind, we're off to colder climes in February and having a dodgy regulator without a readily available replacement is not an option. pete The Gaslow version, I don't know who manufactures it, is much cheaper at only £16.50 see www.east-coast-leisure.co.uk/modules/shop/view.asp?Prodcode=698 as an example, though that supplier is currently awaiting stock (expected now according to phone call) but at least as it is of a different manufacture and the problem has only been reported on the Truma ones, surely thats got to be worth a try at that price hasn't it? Bas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Frank Wilkinson Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 My Gaslow stainless steel hoses arrived today. Good service, I only ordered them yesterday. My Gaslow installation actually uses steel hoses already for the filling part of the system. Presumably they can take the much higher pressures that may be generated when filling up?I shall now replace the outlet hoses with the new steel ones and let's hope that I do not experience the faulty regulator problem.I'm interested in the comment above that Gaslow makes a similar regulator for only £16.50. At that price it has to be worth carrying a spare.I shall investigate further! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 peejay: Have you got a Truma Drive-Safe (Secu-Motion) regulator by any chance? These approach £50 in price, but the 'ordinary' Truma/GOK 30mbar regulator is around £30 (or about £35 if it has a pressure gauge). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 The 30mbar 'bulkhead-mountable' regulators most likely to be found in the UK are: A) The TRUMA/GOK regulator that we are all now familiar with. This is available with either an 8mm or 10mm compression-fitting to connect to a leisure-vehicle's fixed gas pipework, and with or without an integrated pressure-gauge. It has an integrated test-point and ON/OFF 'knob'. B) The CAVAGNA regulator marketed by Gaslow. An 8mm or 10mm adapter/test-point (also available from Gaslow) is needed to connect the regulator to a leisure-vehicle's fixed gas pipework. C) The CLESSE regulator available from Calor (and other sources). This has an integrated test-point and a 10mm compression-fitting to connect to a leisure-vehicle's fixed gas pipework (so a 'reducing set' would be needed to connect to 8mm gas pipe). This is the "COMAP" regulator mentioned in the NCC thecaravan.net news item referred to in an earlier posting in this thread. D) The TRUMA/GOK "Drive-Safe" regulator (termed "Secu-Motion" outside the UK). This is available with various gas-flow output settings and is designed to comply with EU regulations allowing LPG heating to be used while driving. You'll appreciate from this that, although it's a good idea to carry a spare regulator with you on your travels, you may encounter fitting incompatibility if the original regulator and the 'spare' aren't identical. Some personal observations based on the NCC thecaravan.net news item mentioned above. In October 2006 Calor issued the technical information bulletin "Calor Recommendations for LPG Installations within Touring and Motor Caravans". The bulletin's stated purpose was to: 1) Assist with the reduction of plasticizers (phthalates) from LPG systems. 2) Assist with the prevention of condensate at the regulator. 3) Assist with the selection of suitable equipment and fittings. The physical installation recommended by Calor has the bulkhead-mounted regulator's vent (ie. its outlet) at least 3" above the gas-bottle valve, has the regulator's vent pointing vertically downwards, uses as short as possible a pigtail-hose between the gas-bottle and the regulator's inlet, and has the hose ascending all the way to the regulator's inlet (ie. the hose has no downwards dips in it). This arrangement clearly minimises a) the opportunity for LPG to condense in the pigtail and possibly leech out plasticizers from it and b) the chance that any LPG that might condense in the leisure-vehicle's metal gas tubing 'downstream' of the regulator might run back into the regulator via its outlet. This layout is perfectly logical, but obtaining the minimum 3" vertical separation between regulator and gas-cylinder valve will be far from easy, particularly if a cylinder change-over device is fitted above the regulator and/or large capacity gas-bottles are employed. Existing motorhomes' gas systems may need significant modifications to make them even approach Calor's recommended layout let alone conform fully to it. Calor's bulletin recommends that all hoses should include an excess flow valve and non-return valve. I'm not familiar with how the non-return valve functions but, on the face of it, such a valve would seem to have the potential to prevent any condensate that might form in the hose from running back into the gas-bottle. (Perhaps someone with knowledge of these valves could comment further?) The final couple of paragraphs of the NCC news item refer to incidences of regulator failures abroad. When my own regulators packed up, it seemed reasonable to me that, if the problem lay with the German-made Truma/GOK regulator's design or construction, a spate of failures should have occurred in Germany where this regulator would have been fitted in huge numbers. I asked the German dealer from whom I bought my motorhome in 2005 for his views and he confirmed there had been problems with the GOK wall-mounted regulator. However I gained the impression that the number of failures had not been large. As far as France is concerned, complaints about clogged-up regulators and solenoid valves on gas appliances have been made by motorcaravanners for a good few years. There have been regular reports in motorhome magazines and numerous postings on the campingcar-infos forum. There's the usual range of pet theories (butane's OK, propane's OK, this gas supplier is better than that one, etc. etc.), but the general belief is that it's the LPG itself that's 'dirty'. Filters are now being marketed in France to fit between gas-cylinder and pigtail-hose but, if it's the installation layout that's the culprit, these are unlikely to be effective. I understand that 'on-bottle' regulators have been illegal for some time for leisure-vehicles marketed in France: consequently bulkhead mounting of regulators (28mbar or 37mbar type) began there well before the 30mbar standard was adopted in the UK. I've never seen any suggestion that the 'muck' is coming from the pigtail-hoses, but if the French clogging problems only began when regulator bulkhead-mounting was standardised there, the 'leeching' argument gains further credence. On the other hand, an article in my motorhome club magazine about regulator failures referred to a conversation with a Truma representative at the October NEC exhibition. "He had no hesitation in saying that the problem is caused through using dirty gas. He said that is why Truma are promoting BP's new lightweight containers - but then he would say that wouldn't he?" As Truma always attend the February NEC Show you might want to interrogate them about this and what the company's current stance is. 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malc1 Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 Hi just to add to the discussion im on my second regulator they wouldnt exchange mine under warranty, even though my van was less than a than a year old. so i opened up the valve out of curiosity. the first stage of the valve was contaminated with a oily substance but the second stage was dry,my valve had failed completely even connecting it to a air compressor at 250psi it still would not let any air through. I found that the seal on the first stage had swollen due to the contaminates,also the diaphragm was distorted due to the contaminates. (hopfully i can upload the pictures to explane) This regulator has only been run on lpg as we have a tank fitted under the van so rules out calor butane or propane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 As this problem ONLY affects regulators that are Bulkhead fixed AND the problem has been around in France since the new 30mbar Bulkhead fitting was compulsary,then why o why did we in the UK have to follow suit ?? My 'older' M/H still uses the gas bottle fitted regulator,if and when I get one that has a wall mounted regulator I would promptly convert it back to a bottle mounted and bypass this troublesome and expensive fitting. If it ain't broke DON'T 'fix it', especially don't replace it with something that IS BROKE. Until someone owns up to causing this fiasco i wouldn't waste my money on continually replacing clogged regulators. Change the system back to something that DOES work. (get your work checked by a registered gas fitter afterwards) *-) Starspirit, just read your earlier post,you suggested the same sorry. Chas , the 2 or 3 mbar would make no noticable differance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 malc1 - 2007-02-04 11:23 AM Hi just to add to the discussion im on my second regulator they wouldnt exchange mine under warranty, even though my van was less than a than a year old. so i opened up the valve out of curiosity. the first stage of the valve was contaminated with a oily substance but the second stage was dry,my valve had failed completely even connecting it to a air compressor at 250psi it still would not let any air through. I found that the seal on the first stage had swollen due to the contaminates,also the diaphragm was distorted due to the contaminates. (hopfully i can upload the pictures to explane) This regulator has only been run on lpg as we have a tank fitted under the van so rules out calor butane or propane MalcWell done! That is superb. Clearly the contamination has reacted with the diaphragm and the valve seals. Your pictures seem to lay bare the areas within the regulators that have been affected.All we need now is someone who can carry out, or is preapred to pay for, analysis of the seal / diaphragm material/s and the contamination as found!However, it still looks to me as though the fault probably lies with GOK having specified the wrong types of synthetic rubber.It's no proof, of course, but our bulkhead mounted Cavagna regulator has been in actual daily use for nearly 48 weeks, taken over three long trips and a couple of shorter ones, and continues to function correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc1 Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 I agree with you brian, I work in heavy transport side of things and see air and brake valves which are contaminated by diesel ,engine oil and grease. None which swell up and distort, with such a small amount of contaminates Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 Totally agree Brian, I definately believe it is a Truma/ GOK design defect that they refuse to admit. As I said earlier we have had a Gaslow fitted in the supposed worst scenario position with no ill effect for nearly three years now, (it will probably fail now!!). Bas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tp002c784tp002c784tp Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 Basil You say you have had Gasflow fitted and not had any trouble but what regulator are you using ? Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 Its a Gaslow wall mounted one. They are available in 37mb 28mb and the new 30mb not made by Truma/ GOK. Bas P.S. See website posted by me several above this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wills Wagon Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 I have an AutoTrail Cheyenne registered September 2005 and bought from Brownhills Newark. In August 2006 the regulator failed when at Scarborough (just stopped - no gas at all), and as we were on our way to Whitley Bay we phoned Brownhills at Chester Le Street. They said call in which we did and they fitted a new regulator under warranty, excellent service as we only lost an hour of our journey. On 25 January 2007 we were in Newark and I asked at the service desk if their were any modifications to be made. They checked and booked us in for last Wednesday 31 January. They have extended the pipe on the outlet side of the regulator, so that the regulator is above the top of the cylinder and on the inlet side of the regulator have added a 90 degree bend, the regulator is still vertical as before. The pipe from the cylinder to the regulator is also all above the top of the cylinder. All done under warranty even though we are outside the one year guarantee period. The part supplied I believe by AutoTrail. They are not doing a general recall as "it is not a safety issue" I use LPG from Autogas in a TB Turbo refillable cylinder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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