mover Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 I was shown a newspaper article in Spain the other day about someone in Spain who was stopped and fined by Spanish police for towing a car on an A Frame.I know there's been lots of articles written about this and it appears to be a grey area.Has any one got any further infoon this ? *-) *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 Just go the the "Frequently asked questions" above, I think you'll fine it is all there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel E Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 Two additions to what we know so far: 1) It will almost certainly become illegal under the new Contruction and Use Regulations currently being worked out in the EU through the consultation process. The new Regs are needed to implement EU-wide consistent ECWVTA testing (EC Whole Vehicle Type Approval Testing). They won't become law for some years yet, but time is clearly limited. 2) I (and others) have always quoted the pan-EU 'understanding' that a vehicle that's legal in one state may be temporarily imported into another state for up to 6 months without needing to comply with local laws. I have just discovered that THIS IS NOT THE CASE for many regulations. For example EVERY vehicle temporarily driven into the UK MUST COMPLY with our own unique width, length, height and weight rules - within 6 seconds of arrival NOT 6 months. Mel E ==== Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddie123 Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 The way I look at it isn't towing a car with an automatic overun braking system just the same as towing an unladen car shaped trailer, or am I missing something (probably)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Newell Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 eddie, have a look at the frequently asked questions thread at the top, there is an extensive discussion there of all the salient points of A frame towing. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddie123 Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 Thanks Dave but I did read the FAQs before posting. I was offering what I thought was a simple analogy to cut through all the fog. Could someone explain why a braked car attached to an A frame is different in any way to an unloaded "car shaped" trailer? Surely it will respond in exactly the same way to whatever is thrown at it. I am new to this and don't want to appear arguementative, I am probably missing something, but I am considering towing my Peugeot 107. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 eddie123 - 2007-01-31 6:07 PM Thanks Dave but I did read the FAQs before posting. I was offering what I thought was a simple analogy to cut through all the fog. Could someone explain why a braked car attached to an A frame is different in any way to an unloaded "car shaped" trailer? Surely it will respond in exactly the same way to whatever is thrown at it. I am new to this and don't want to appear arguementative, I am probably missing something, but I am considering towing my Peugeot 107. Cheers EddieIs isn't the shape of the trailer, or whether or not it is loaded, that is the problem. It is all about how the trailer (car) brakes can be made to work when it is on tow. How do you get the brakes on the car to activate effectively when you brake your motorhome, but not to do so when you reverse it?A trailer must (legally) have overrun brakes that automatically disengage for reversing. If you had a car shaped trailer, with such brakes, it would be, so far as I know, perfectly legal. However, normal cars don't have such brakes, so aren't legal as trailers.Best foolproof (and incontravertably legal) solution so far, is to put the car on a trailer equipped with the right kind of overrun brakes. However, the combined weight of car and trailer must be within your vehicles gross train weight limit, should, ideally not exceed 85% of the MIRO of the motorhome, and must fall within your permitted driving license categories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Newell Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 As I've said elsewhere a car on an A frame is actually a more stable trailer than a conventional twin axled trailer. It fails to meet trailer law in two key areas; 1/ Brakes. Braking efficiency aside, no car currently made has auto disengaging brakes when being reversed. If any did then they would have no brakes when reversing! 2/ Steering. It is just about impossible to control the steering of an A framed car while reversing yet this is obviously a vitally important detail because if you met a vehicle coming the other way and had to reverse your outfit round a corner you would not be able to do it. At the risk of becoming boring, try reversing your car around a corner without touching the steering wheel and you will see my point I'm sure. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddie123 Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Thanks guys, I get the picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 As an observation. I am surprised none of the 'A' frame makers has installed a reversing lock solenoid as I used to have years ago on a B&B chassis caravan. It was electrically wired to the reversing lights and as soon as you engaged reverse it pushed a lever, as used to be used before auto reverse brakes came on the scene and normally had to be manually operated, between the hitch and a plate that stopped the overun coupling from compressing. This would at least alleviate the inability to reverse infringement of the law. Bas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Newell Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Basil - 2007-02-01 11:27 AM As an observation. I am surprised none of the 'A' frame makers has installed a reversing lock solenoid as I used to have years ago on a B&B chassis caravan. It was electrically wired to the reversing lights and as soon as you engaged reverse it pushed a lever, as used to be used before auto reverse brakes came on the scene and normally had to be manually operated, between the hitch and a plate that stopped the overun coupling from compressing. This would at least alleviate the inability to reverse infringement of the law. Bas Perhaps because they don't really care about the public breaking the law as long as they continue to sell their product? Cynical, Moi? D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel E Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Basil, I actually discussed such an idea with one of the main suppliers and their view was that it would not meet the requirements os the relevant regulation. Mel E ==== Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michele Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Please Forgive me, Mel E you have mail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Hi Mel E, That's interesting, I don't use an 'A' frame, I considered it but was put off by the controversy. Do you know why they had that view as that was certainly how they did it with caravans, I can definately say B&B, when the auto reverse laws came in at the same time as the Alko chassis were fitted with the newly developed auto unlocking shoe system can't remember who it was now but invented by one of the brake manufacturers I believe. I can't see why it would not be satisfactory as it does what the law requires and allows you to reverse without manual intervention. Doesn't help with the steering though. Bas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcob Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Hi Basil The law states the auto-reverse MUST work automaticaly, and not either elecricaly or manualy. In the distant past I have used both these systems. My main concern is the brakes would be useless with no servo. Regards P.S. This has all been covered before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Hi, Yes I do realise that but I thought that by electrically it meant you couldn't manually swith a switch to operate it it had to be automatic which the caravan system was. Bas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 BasilBut not automatic in the sense that it is fail safe. The electric operation would only work provided the brake light switch works, the connecting cables are intact, the connecting plug/socket is making the necessary contacts and the solenoid is working.Too many potential points of failure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Hi Brian Haven't the brakes themselves got just as many if not more 'points of failure'. I know I have had many problems with brakes 'sticking on' and binding especially when the trailer is not used daily, infact I never leave the handbrake on when not using my trailer for any sort of time, for if i do sure as hell when I come to use the trailer again guess what? Yes the brakes are stuck on!!! Regards Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mover Posted February 1, 2007 Author Share Posted February 1, 2007 Ref my original post,all the replies are very interesting but do not alter the fact that according to the article I read in a news paper,someone was fined for using an A Frame so I for one won't be using one but will get a proper car trailer,I suspect A Frames will go the same way as Bull Bars did on Motorhomes and thats to the scrap yards. *-) *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Pat - 2007-02-01 9:06 PM Hi Brian Haven't the brakes themselves got just as many if not more 'points of failure'. I know I have had many problems with brakes 'sticking on' and binding especially when the trailer is not used daily, infact I never leave the handbrake on when not using my trailer for any sort of time, for if i do sure as hell when I come to use the trailer again guess what? Yes the brakes are stuck on!!! Regards Pat Re points of failure: short answer, no. The mechanism inside the drum is designed to "collapse" when the wheel turns backwards. Although the overrun device will tighten the linkage/s when the trailer is reversed, and so begin to apply the brake, the shoes ride on an overcentre cam at their bearing point which rotates to releases them. Even fully compressed, the overrun device has insufficient movement to take up the resulting slack at the wheel end. Subsequent forward rotation of the wheel resets the overcentre cam, so that the brakes work normally again for forward travel.It is, therefore, foolproof in operation. However, just like any brakes, they do have to be correctly adjusted and maintained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBS Posted May 17, 2007 Share Posted May 17, 2007 Mel E - 2007-01-31 12:54 PM 2) I (and others) have always quoted the pan-EU 'understanding' that a vehicle that's legal in one state may be temporarily imported into another state for up to 6 months without needing to comply with local laws. I have just discovered that THIS IS NOT THE CASE for many regulations. For example EVERY vehicle temporarily driven into the UK MUST COMPLY with our own unique width, length, height and weight rules - within 6 seconds of arrival NOT 6 months. Mel E ==== Mel Does this mean that it is illegal to tow an 8 foot wide caravan with a vehicle under 3500kg GVW, even if they are on holiday from, say, Germany (where the outfit would be perfectly legal)? Where is this legislation to be found? SBS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michele Posted May 17, 2007 Share Posted May 17, 2007 Welcome SBS, Mel E dont seem to be here at the mo try frequently asked questions above.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel E Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 SBS, I'm afraid it's all a little complicated and I'm not going to attempt to quote sources for all of it. The essential points are: 1. Construction and Use Regulations have not yet been fully replaced by pan-European EU Directives. So each EU member state has some aspects of its law that are different from that in other member states. I gave the example of vehicle width, etc. Yes, vehicles temporarily in the UK MUST comply with our vehicle width rules. However, because our police have no power (nor do they apparently want it) to give on-the-spot fines, it's just as impossible to enforce this as it is speeding offences - unless the offender commits an arrestable offence. 2. There are, however, pan-EU Directives implemented in each member state's own laws to prevent unfair competitive actions. For example, Italy cannot refuse to allow importation and sale of a vehicle because it fails to comply with some specially constructed law designed to protect Italian-built vehicles - such a requirement for, say, 3 separate bulbs each side for rear side lights. 3. As I've commented here and elsewhere several times, the approach to law in various members states is fundamentally different. Put simply, English Law, which is the basis of all UK Law (and Scottich and US Law), is essentially preventative - it assumes that you can do anything you want provided there is no specific law against it. Napoleonic Law which is the system that applies in France, Spain, Italy and (perhaps surprisingly) Germany - indeed in most other EU states - is permissive. It allows you to do only those things explicitly permitted by law. Let me use A-frame towing as an example. The law on trailers is one part of Construction & Use that is uniform across the EU, so why do we think it may be legal in the UK, but it isn't elsewhere? It's because there is no law allowing it, so it's definitely forbidden in any Napoleonic Law country. But that lack of law against means you can do it in the UK - except that doing so almost certainly contravenes the law on automatic disengaging of the brakes and controllability when reversing. Complicated isn't it? But if the law were simple, clear and not open to interpretation, how would lawyers earn a decent living? Mel E ==== Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyishuk Posted May 19, 2007 Share Posted May 19, 2007 Do cars clock up mileage if on an A frame ? (as in odeometer) From a personal perspective,I would be concerned about the wear and tear on the running gear and gearbox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel E Posted May 19, 2007 Share Posted May 19, 2007 tonyishuk - 2007-05-19 9:49 AM Do cars clock up mileage if on an A frame ? (as in odeometer) From a personal perspective,I would be concerned about the wear and tear on the running gear and gearbox. Not if the car has an electronic display. Otherwise, yes, its wheels go round, so the odometer does too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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