Kontiki fuses

[theoldnick]

I have a 2006 Kontiki and the step and the satellite dish are not retracting when I start the engine also the reversing camera display on the dashboard is not working.

 

I am assuming (maybe incorrectly ) that it is a fuse fault.

 

Would anyone know where such fuses are located please.

[Alanb]

Is your fridge working on 12V?

 

Do you have a hand book? If not may I suggest that you download here.

 

Now consult page 17 or 18 as appropriate. If you look at the top of the diagram immediately below the words "SPLIT CHARGE RELAY" a group of 4 fuses is shown. No.1 is spare, and No.2 is labelled "FRIDGE". A RED/YELLOW wire is shown connected to this fuse. Tracing this wire round the diagram, reveals that it connects to the reversing camera, the step relay, as well as to the fridge. From your description of the problem, this Fuse 2 may well have failed.

 

I note that the manual does not seem to reveal the location of these fuses, but as they are associated with connections to the vehicle battery, I suggest looking under the bonnet. The plastic cover to the rear centre of the engine bay is often used to house additional fuses and split charge/fridge relays. A 10mm spanner will be required to remove M6 fixings.

 

I assume that your sattelite dish is an addition. It seems probable that it has also tapped into the same fuse, in which case the fuse could be subject to more than its rated current. On starting the engine you will have the dish lowering, and the step retracting, as well as the fridge running on 12V. A fuse will withstand repeated short duration overloads but will probably fail eventually. A 15A fuse is minimal for the fridge alone, and 20A has been suggested on this forum. I advise against increasing the fuse rating above 20A.

 

Alan

 

[theoldnick]

Thanks Alan

 

I have downloaded the handbook/manual and your conclusions look sensible to a mechanical man who cannot read an electrical drawing.

 

So I will start the under bonnet fuse hunt, but first I am on grandfather taxi run taking granddaughter to dental hospital then I've got to watch the semi final ladies football, so hopefully between hospital and football I can get around to the 'hunt'

 

Thanks again

 

RonB

[Alanb]

Ron,

 

On reflection, I may have overstated the possible current demand of youe Sat Dish.

 

Depending on how it has been connected, it could be taking only a control signal from the fridge supply (Fuse 2), with the motor powered via a different fuse.

 

I have assumed that your base vehicle is an x244 2.8JTD Fiat Ducato, but given the year of manufacture, it could be an x250.

 

I am surprised that Sargent/Swift have supplied both the fridge and the step via the same fuse. However there must be many other Kontikis out there.

 

Has the step become sluggish with advancing years? It would then draw more current, and increase the stress on the fuse. One work around would be to retract the step before starting the engine, but you should not have to do this.

 

On my 2006 PVC, the auto retract power for the step was originally taken from a grossly uprated ACC+ supply. I altered this to take the step supply from the habitation battery.

 

Alan

[Deneb]

If it is an X250, it may be that the signal to retract the step and dish is obtained from the simulated D+ trigger in the Fiat supplied conversion socket?

 

If so, it may point either to a failure of the switching relay or of the simulated D+ signal which is supplied by the body computer.

 

I recently encountered another X250 where the step auto retract had apparently failed. Neither the converter or an auto electrician were able to fix it despite having the van for several days between them.

 

I suggested that the owner tried a body computer reset as I have described in the current "Fiat Ducato Speedo failure" thread, and that resolved the problem completely.

[theoldnick]

I have changed the fuses to new 20 amp fuses and the problem still remains.

 

To answer some of the queries;

 

From the V5C registration certificate It is a 2006 ducato Maxi D MWB 2800CC.

 

The step works perfectively on the open/close button with no sluggishness. It was a new step approx. 5years ago, so don't think its an age problem.

The satellite dish was fitted from new and always retracted when the engine started.

 

RonB

[Alanb]

Hi Ron,

 

I am sorry that you have been unable to locate the cause of your problem.

 

I deduce that you have found the group of four fuses and the two relays.

 

On the diagram the LH relay is the Fridge Relay, and the RH relay is the Split Charge Relay. These relays are operated from the alternator field circuit, (blue wire at top LHS corner of diagram) commonly referred to as D+.

 

The best way to monitor operation of the Split Charge Relay is to check the habitation (leisure) battery voltage before and after starting the engine. It should increase. If your vehicle does not have EMC shutdown, you could use the control panel indication for this check.

 

If the habitation battery is fully charged, run some lights off it for 10 to 15 minutes before starting the engine.

 

If the habitation battery voltage rises on starting the engine, it is a good indication that the D+ signal is present, and that the Split Charge Relay is operating.

 

The Fridge Relay may be more difficult, but it may be possible to detect a slight drop in voltage when the fridge is selected to 12V, with the engine running. If the Split Charge Relay is working, but not the Fridge Relay, then I would suspect a faulty relay, or poor connections. (I did ask if your fridge was working on 12V.)

 

From the information that you have given, your vehicle engine is a 2.8 (ltr) JTD.

 

Alan

 

 

[weldted]

On our later x250, there is a relay in the offside B post which controls all the items you are having problems with. It has failed twice over the years. It takes a signal from the D+

[theoldnick]

I switched the fridge to 12volts and have been waiting to see if it cools some water I put in or made ice cubes but it does not appear to be working after several hours.

 

But the lights for the fridge max/min temp control are working.

 

Ron

[theoldnick]

Alan

 

 

 

also as well as the step and satellite dish not retracting the fridge not working on 12volts the reverse camera system is not working.

I don't know if this would help to pin point the fault.

 

thanks for all your efforts.

 

 

Ron

[Alanb]

theoldnick - 2019-07-02 5:12 PM

 

I switched the fridge to 12volts and have been waiting to see if it cools some water I put in or made ice cubes but it does not appear to be working after several hours.

 

But the lights for the fridge max/min temp control are working.

 

Ron

 

Ron,

 

The fridge will not get a supply to its 12V heating element, unless the engine is running. That is why I suggested trying to see a small voltage drop when the fridge is switched to 12V with the engine running.

(A fridge failure on 12V could go unnoticed if the fridge had previously been operating on either gas or 240V.)

 

Also have you been able to confirm that your habitation battery is being charged by the alternator?

(If you always use EHU, it would be possible for the failure of alternator charging to go unnoticed.)

 

If both habiation battery charging, and fridge, step etc have failed, then I would suspect a faulty D+ connection. If only the fridge etc have failed, then the fridge relay is suspect.

 

It should be possible to prove the latter possibility by either wire or relay swapping. I strongly advise disconnecting BOTH battery negatives before working on either, the Split Charge or Fridge Relays.

 

Alan

 

[Alanb]

weldted - 2019-07-02 3:38 PM

 

On our later x250, there is a relay in the offside B post which controls all the items you are having problems with. It has failed twice over the years. It takes a signal from the D+

 

Weldted,

 

If my vehicle had repeated relay failures, I would be asking WHY?

 

(On my x244 Ducato there are at least two relays vital to the operation of the vehicle, and several others of which the failure would render unfit for use on public roads, viz Main Beam, Dipped Beam, Horn, Screen Wash & Wipers. We all take the operation of these relays for granted.)

 

Alan

[theoldnick]

Hi Alan (resending this message as first was left justified and moved the text)

 

ran some tests following your guidelines using the readings on the control panel.

 

- - - --- - -- --- -- ----- - - --- lights for 15min- - - Engine running

Start First test LB 12.5V- - - - - 10.4V- - - - - - - - -12V

VB 12.2 - - - - 11.7V- - - - - - - - - 13V

 

2nd fridge test with engine running. start fridge on 12V

 

LB 12.1- - - - - -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- 12.1V

VB 14.1 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 14V

 

Hope this makes sense to you. It appears the fridge on 12V is not doing anything

 

 

Ron

 

 

[Alanb]

Ron,

 

I have been busy in the gardenthis evening, as my normal head gardener (wife) is on long term sick leave.

 

Looking at your results, I can make the following

 

1. The 14V on V Batt with engine running indicates that the alternator is OK.

 

2. The voltages recorded for the habitation (leisure) battery, suggest that it is discharged. The 10.4V is about disaster level.

 

3. To hazard a guess, it is possible that the D+ connection, or the earth (12V -ve), to the relay coils is faulty. The common connection from the vehicle battery positive is another possibility. The other alternative is that both relays are faulty. Two faults at once????? Not very probable.

 

May I suggest a carefull examination of the connections to both relays. Check for loose or corroded connections. Do please disconnect both battery negatives before doing anything other than a visual inspection.

 

It may be worth mentioning that in the past I have had problems with corrosion cracking of elderly female blade connectors. To be plunged into darkness on a country road, by headlight failure is not pleasant!

 

Alan

 

 

 

 

 

[theoldnick]

Morning Alan

 

I have run the engine for 2hours today with fridge switched to 12volts

 

temp 12deg at the start and still 12deg at the finish.

 

So it does not seem to be working on 12volts.

 

I will now look at your latest recommendation.

 

regards

 

 

Ron

 

[weldted]

Re mine failing twice, the van is a 2012 model the first relay failure at app 3 months the circuit board had melted, apparently I was not the only one to suffer this. Second failure March 2018 would appear the presence of moisture within the B post had run down onto the relay. Whilst annoying was not perhaps the failure of the relay by itself. The statement was made in the similarity of the problems being had by the OP.

[theoldnick]

Hi guys

 

It was getting to be 'beyond my ken' to continue this investigation so I took it this morning to a local auto electrician.

 

The problem with the step and satellite not withdrawing was due to the relay failure as you indicated, so new relay fitted and now working.

 

The problem with the reversing camera not working also my reversing lights not working (which I hadn't noticed) is due to a faulty reverse switch at the gearbox. So a new switch on order and when fitted hopefully all will be resolved.

 

The electrical drawing from the handbook was referred to several times to trace the various options as the auto electrician was not familiar with motorhomes.

 

 

So many many thanks for your assistance and pointing me in the correct direction

 

 

regards

 

 

RonB

[Alanb]

Ron,

 

You have your initial problems sorted, but may I suggest checking that your habitation (leisure) battery voltage rises when the engine is started.

 

(The diagram does not suggest that changing the Fridge Relay should have any effect on habitation battery charging.)

 

Alan

[Alanb]

Weldted,

 

Failure of Fiat Simulated D+ Relay

 

weldted - 2019-07-03 10:44 PM

 

Re mine failing twice, the van is a 2012 model the first relay failure at app 3 months the circuit board had melted, apparently I was not the only one to suffer this. Second failure March 2018 would appear the presence of moisture within the B post had run down onto the relay. Whilst annoying was not perhaps the failure of the relay by itself. The statement was made in the similarity of the problems being had by the OP.

 

If I remenber correctly the Fiat Simulated D+ output is an active low output (switched negative), with the relay coil permanently connected to 12V +ve. While this method of connection is common when interfacing with electronic circuitry, it does not help the relay in damp situations, as the relay coil will be more prone to suffer from electrolytic (anodic) corrosion.

 

Alan

 

 

[Deneb]

Alanb - 2019-07-05 10:41 AM

 

If I remenber correctly the Fiat Simulated D+ output is an active low output (switched negative), with the relay coil permanently connected to 12V +ve.

 

Indeed it is.

[theoldnick]

Hi Alan

 

ran some tests with all the readings from the control panel

 

start; no hook up and no engine running

 

leisure battery (LB) 12.2V

 

Ran internal van lights for approx. 30min LB 10.9V

 

Put all lights off LB increased to 11.7V

 

ran engine for 40min LB 11.9V

 

put on electric hook up LB 13.4

 

take off electric hook up LB 12.4V

 

I am not sure what this is indicating

 

 

regards

 

Ron

 

 

 

[Alanb]

Ron,

 

1. How old is your habitation battery?

 

2.What type of battery is it? e.g. Flooded Lead Acid (FLA), Absorbed Gas Mat (AGM), or Gel?

 

The resting voltage of 11.4V is too low for any type of lead acid battery. I would expect 12.6V or more for a healthy battery.

 

The rapid voltage drop to 10.9V under load again suggests a discharged/failing battery, and the increase to 11.7V when you switched the lights OFF again suggests a battery in poor condition, with perhaps a relatively high internal resistance.

 

The increase in voltage of 0.2V to 11.9V after running the engine for 40 minutes, is difficult to make any definite conclusion on, however it will take several hours of running to fully charge a flat battery.

 

The situation with mains charging via EHU is more hopefull. Some early caravan style mains power supplies are very simple, and only float the battery at about 13.6V.

 

From the readings that you have provided, it seems highly probable that charging of your habitation battery from the vehicle alternator is not working. (If you only use the vehicle on sites with EHU, this may not have been apparent.)

 

For a first step, check the condition of Fuse 3 (20A Leisure Battery) under the bonnet.

 

Alan

[theoldnick]

Hi Alan

 

 

The van is a Kontiki 645 (don't think I indicated that previously.)

 

New battery (LB) fitted about 7 to 10 years ago, bought from Perthshire caravans so a reputable source.

 

Type on battery nameplate is Banner energy bull ; 12v K5/75ah k20/100ah

 

Verified leisure battery class B

 

It is the type I have to add distilled water and levels are maintained ok.

 

 

The van is not used in the 'closed' season so in house drive without electric hook up but I try to run the engine every three weeks just to make sure it starts. Sometimes I have to jump start it in the winter.

 

I fitted 3 new 20A fuses at the start of the initial investigations. Knowingly changing the fridge 15A to 20A. Should I leave that in there or go back and change to a 15A.

 

We always go on sites and use an electric hook up as we take our sky box which needs 240supply.

 

 

Hope this helps

 

and thanks again for your efforts

 

 

 

RonB

 

 

 

[Alanb]

Ron,

 

Time passes quicker than you realise when you get to be an oldie. So your battery could be as much as ten years old. At this age most lead acid batteries will be life expired, and the Banner will be no exception. It should be replaced before it overworks and damages your mains PSU/charger.

 

As you make little use of your habitation battery, a cheaper starter battery would suffice, and you may wish to consider this option. However the Varta LFD range is popular and can function as either a habitation or starter battery. With either of these options it may be possible to use emergency jump leads between the two batteries, if they are not to far apart. There are inherent hazards with such an operation, and I think that the habitation battery should be completely isolated, with its positive leads insulated as well. After such use the habitation battery should also be well ventilated, before remaking the final (earth) connection. Further if the engine had been started, the habitation battery positive lead could be live via the split charge relay. Not a simple operation.

 

Your fridge fuse should be OK at 20A, but if you wish to be cautious revert to 15A, I have decreased the fuse rating for my fridge from 20A to 15A, without any problem. What is not generally appreciated is that the energy flowing into a fault is roughly proportional to the square of the fuse rating. I say roughly because there are other factors involved.

 

Alan

[theoldnick]

Alan

 

going to buy and fit a new battery (LB)

 

from internet a company called Tayna has a Varta LFD 90------- 90AH

 

Price delivered is approx. £100

 

Would this be suitable or do you have other (more economic) recommendations.