Ducato engine management light problems

[Peter W]

Hello,

 

I would appreciate any comments or assistance members can offer with the following problems which I suffered this summer.

 

The motorhome in question is a LHD 2013 Laika Kreos low profile with the 2.3 150 HP Euro5 engine and Comfort-Matic gearbox, and has done approx 18,500 miles.

 

The problems have all been exhibited by the Engine Management light illuminating and a subsequent loss of power. On the first occasion I took the vehicle to CamperService, Delft (fully recommend them) who, after initially checking turbo / EGR pipes and fittings, EGR operation and associated electrical wiring & connectors, finally fitted a new EGR vacuum control valve and boost pressure sensor.

 

Around 500 miles later the problem reoccurred and I took the decision to drive some 200 miles back to CamperService - about half way the light went out and engine performance appeared to return to normal. CamperService diagnosed a faulty turbo boost pressure sensor /actuator (?) and said the only fix was a new turbo. However, since the engine now appeared to be functioning normally, I decided to reject this, and make my way back home.

 

At one point I noticed that the cab battery was only reading 13.? V with the engine well above idle, and I'm reasonably confident that this was during the period when the engine management light was illuminated. It is currently reading what I consider to be a more normal 14.3 V. Is this a red herring or is it relevant ?

 

I have now done a further 1000 miles with no repeat of any problems.

 

Whilst the light was illuminated, apart from the power loss, the engine appeared to be running normally - it was running smoothly, started and idled as normal, and with no visible smoke.

 

I am always suspicious when multiple faults appear to happen either simultaneously or in quick succession, and am wandering if I am suffering from the "earth strap problem" or do I really need a new turbo ?

 

Many thanks

 

 

[laimeduck]

I had a similar problem to this which turned out to be the Turbo Waste Gate.

The light only came on on hard acceleration with a resultant loss of power until the throttle was feathered.

My local garage cleaned the wastegate and the problem has not recurred.

 

 

My van has the 2.8JTD engine of 2004 vintage, so comparison my not be equivalent and ECU's have become more complex since that time.

 

 

Still the anecdote may be of use?

Jeremy

 

[Deneb]

You really need to get it checked for fault codes and whether any active or historic. Without knowing what codes were logged it is a bit of a fishing expedition. If the warning light is no longer illuminated, it does suggest that that may have cleared itself, at least for now.

 

If the van is currently behaving, get any shown fault codes cleared. Then, if it does happen again, you are starting with a clean sheet.

[euroserv]

Hi, and welcome to the forum.

 

I agree with the above completely.

You mentioned that the garage replaced a couple of items but have not stated which fault codes were present at the time; perhaps they did not tell you?

I would suggest that in the absense of any codes, the first thing to get sorted out is the battery charge level. Although a poor engine earth normally will present itself in different ways, such as a raised idle level or problems with starting, the measured level of 13V is too low and suggests that there is an earth problem.

In the case of 2.3 Euro 5 engines i found that a longer than usual replacement cable fitted to the original earth point on the chassis but instead of the aluminium gearbox mount, the other end of the cable can be conveniently attached to the rear of the EGR device with the aid of an extra M8 nut because the stud is long enough to accommodate it. A cable of about 24" is required for this and it works very well indeed; just don't try to do it when the engine is hot!

 

As opposed to Euro 4 engines, the throttle body is a simple plastic device and i have never had to replace one and the EGR soenoid valve is incorporated into the EGR unit and is also no longer a problem but there are significantly more injector related problems with Euro 5 units, although not at such low mileage so i would eliminate the electrical side of things before moving on to something potentially more expensive.

 

The explanation for this is straightforward:

There may have been, and still may be some fault codes present that may have suggested that one or more device was not functioning correctly. If there is any inconsistency with the power supply, the values being reported back to the ECU will be of a lower voltage than they are supposed to be and this can be misinterpreted as a fault. The engine management light is there to indicate that "One or more measurements that may indicate a fault with a device that may affect the emissions of the vehicle are stored and require investigation" No more, no less. If the fault clears and the fault can be automatically cleared by the engine ECU, the warning light will not be illuminated next time the engine is switched on unless the fault occurs again. There are some faults that cannot be deleted by the vehicle and have to be deleted by a suitable device in a workshop; this is to ensure that significant problems are attended to, because the nature of the fault can lead to worsening emissions or engine damage. This is why some faults lead to a reduction in power output (limp home mode).

If the fault code is a minor one and is just a matter of a small variation between the reading that was expected and what was actually reported; it may not be important enough to alter the performance of the vehicle.

 

The biggest problem with Euro 5 and later vehicles is the fact that a diesel particulate filter is fitted. In the old days, if an engine was running poorly, you would see smoke and often the colour and density of the smoke would help to give an indication of what might be wrong but since the arrival of the DPF, smoke is caught by it and can build up and clog the filter to a significant and damaging degree while the vehicle seems to be working as normal. In the case of injector problems in particular; there is often no indication that anything is wrong at all until the DPF becomes excessively clogged and the normal automatic procedure of regeneration is impossible and disabled by the ECU. It does not help that the sensors that detect the clogging in the DPF are also prone to failure.

 

As stated above; the earth issue needs to be looked at first and once you have a regular output of around 14.2 to 14.4V, if you are still having problems with warning lights you need to get the vehicle plugged in and some codes read. I would be happy to discuss your next course of action when you have this information, but hopefully you will not need to do so.

N

[Peter W]

Euroserv

 

Many thanks for the detailed response.

 

You are right that the garage did not give me the fault codes and it was remiss of me not to ask. However they did say on the second occasion that they had not reset any codes and I assume that it should still be possible to read them - I have an OBD reader on order and if this fails I'll contact the local Fiat Commercial dealer.

 

The fitting of a longer earth strap to the EGR device you recommend - can this be done by wriggling underneath the vehicle or does it need to to be raised on a lift ? Unfortunately (?) the battery charge voltage is currently a normal 14.3v so a better earth strap will probably not show any immediate results - I have already tried a jump lead engine to chassis with no detectable effect. Nevertheless I agree it has to be done just to eliminate the possibility.

 

The motorhome is hardly never used for short journeys, the minimum being about 40 miles but more typically 80 - 120 miles. I have always assumed that this would be sufficient to prevent DPF problems - am I being too hopeful ? I have never been aware of the DPF Regeneration light coming on.

 

The suggestion made by the garage that the turbo boost actuator / sensor might be faulty - is this a common fault in your experience ?

 

I have had a quick look at the scuttle for evidence of leaks - there are certainly stains showing that the centre joint is leaking, but most of this appears to be going down the front of the engine. Looking from the top I can see no staining down the rear of the engine and the seal to the windscreen appears to be good. Nevertheless I shall attempt to seal the joints properly and make sure that no leaks can occur.

 

When I have some fault codes I will make a further post

 

Many thanks

 

[euroserv]

Hi,

 

You are welcome.

 

The type of journey that you typically make is sufficient to get the regeneration system working properly. The regeneration light will not illuminate under normal circumstances and you will probably not be aware of anything going on. In fact, i have no idea what it would take to get that warning light to activate because i have had vehicles with major electrical issues and even with completely blocked DPF's and have never seen the light come on.

 

You make an interesting point about access to fit an additional earth cable. On most Ducato's the access is pretty good from above, with the nut that secures the chassis end of the existing strap just visible from above and behind the air filter but with the extra equipment installed in your engine bay for the comfort-matic controls this might be less easy and it might require access from below to fit one end then above to fit the other.

 

I do feel that you should get this done and then be reasonably confident about using the vehicle. It is such a common problem and provides a pretty solid explanation for the symptoms.

 

If you do get the vehicle plugged in to a diagnostic device it would be worth getting a reading of the DPF pressure while the engine is running. This should be in the region of 6 to 10 millibars and if the revs are increased to 1500 rpm it should not rise beyond around 20 millibars. Any higher and there is a problem that requires investigation.