Travel in the EU

[DonB]

There is one thing I do not understand. If the EU enforce the 90 day rule is that for 90 days travel in one calendar year, or one period of 12 months, or is it per trip, or what? Does anybody know?

[colin]

It's 90 days in 180, there are threads on it, and you should be able to find a online calculator.

[Zydeco Joe]

90 days in 180 days with the 180 days starting the first day you go into Europe and the clock does not stop till the end of 180 days. As I travel to Europe three times a year (have done this last 7 years) mid May into July , Mid August till October and the three months in the winter down in Spain from Mid December till early March. I Have a problem with this EU law. Starting Dec 11th (approx. leave UK for Spain) 180 days takes me till early June (3 weeks after start of May trip). I think many other motorhomer's will have similar time frames.

[StuartO]

Zydeco Joe - 2019-08-19 5:46 PM

 

90 days in 180 days with the 180 days starting the first day you go into Europe and the clock does not stop till the end of 180 days. As I travel to Europe three times a year (have done this last 7 years) mid May into July , Mid August till October and the three months in the winter down in Spain from Mid December till early March. I Have a problem with this EU law. Starting Dec 11th (approx. leave UK for Spain) 180 days takes me till early June (3 weeks after start of May trip). I think many other motorhomer's will have similar time frames.

 

I suspect that we motorhomers will have given up the hobby and retired to care homes before EU countries will have geared up to monitor and enforce these complex formulae - and what are they going to do anyway if they only discover you have over-stayed within the Schegen Area as you are checked at the port when you are leaving anyway? Are they really going to make a fuss about someone who has been a tourist, spending money? If necessary you will be able to cross into the EU via France but come back via Belgium or Holland, that should confuse things and reduce the chances of detection!

[Deneb]

They've been monitoring entry and exit of other non-EU nationals via the Schengen computer system for many years, so why should they now have trouble with a few extra non-EU citizens?

 

A couple of months ago we returned from a trip to The Netherlands after only three days due to an emergency. Within 10 seconds of producing our passports at outwards border control we were being asked why we were returning to the UK so soon after arriving in a motorhome.

 

FWIW I read a post on a forum some time ago (before the B-word had even materialised) from an Australian tourist who had fallen foul of the vistor rules. He was detected on entering Denmark off of a ferry and spent over 24 hours in detention until it was resolved.

[Jands]

They will just put the UK onto the same system as all the other 3rd party countries.

I bet the EU monitor people from the States etc.

Punishments will range from fines to banning entering the EU.

They dont know you so will monitor everyone going through the non eu channel.

Also the computers at different countries will be linked so dont think you can disappear that way.

[StuartO]

I suppose a UK number plate will become a magnet for the attention of police, especially perhaps in France, so touring in the EU may well become more problematic, especially for those who want to stay for long periods repeatedly.

 

We go across twice per year for a maximum of eight weeks (50 days) per visit so I'm hopeful that we won't have to make much adjustment to our plans.

[DonB]

Thanks very much for clearing that up. Now all we have to do is wait for the lunatics running the asylum to make their minds up.....

Then we can sort out the trips we want to do.

[Cattwg]

There’s a Schengen calculator at https://adambard.github.io/schengencalc/ It’s not official but I’ve put in various legal and illegal scenarios and it seems to work.

Cattwg :-D

[Brian Kirby]

StuartO - 2019-08-20 10:14 AM………………………….

 

We go across twice per year for a maximum of eight weeks (50 days) per visit so I'm hopeful that we won't have to make much adjustment to our plans.

Yes and no! :-) BTW, eight weeks is 56 days, not 50, and a simple error of that kind could get you into Schengen trouble post Brexit! :-D

 

What you will find is that, as stated above, the 180 day period commences on the date you enter Schengen. It is not elective. You can leave Schengen and re-enter as many times as you like within that 180 day period - providing you do not spend more than 90 days in total in Schengen within that 180 day period.

 

You cannot roll over unused days from your 90 days allowance, and you must leave and re-enter Schengen to initiate another 180 day period, which may not overlap with any previous 180 day period. Irrespective of how many of your 90 permitted days you have actually used, you must leave Schengen before the expiry of your 180 day "Schengen window".

 

The arithmetic is simple, since 2 x 180 = 360, and a year is 365/6 days long.

 

So if you want to make two extended trips into Schengen, one in the Spring and the other in the Autumn, you will have to think in terms of a visit to Schengen for the purpose of setting your first 180 day "window" to terminate, say, mid-August (meaning a visit some time in mid-Feb! :-)), and another visit to Schengen within 5 days of the expiry of your first 180 day period), to allow yourself a further extended trip in the autumn during your second 180 day "window".

 

An alternative would be to Exit Schengen into a non-Schengen state during your first 180 days period, and then re-enter Schengen after the expiry of your first 180 day window to initiate a second 180 day "window".

 

This will all need care, because leaving more than 5 days between successive Schengen "windows" would have the effect of shunting your 180 day "Schengen windows" progressively later into the year.

 

Winter visitors will have to make careful calculations if they want to avoid getting any subsequent visits shunted in to the peak holiday season.

 

As said above, the system already exists for "third countries" (which the UK will become if we Brexit), and depends on your machine readable passport (it is the person, not the vehicle that is recorded) being read on entry and again on exit. The Schengen passport control system then calculates the total duration of your time in Schengen, and you will be liable to be penalised if you over-stay. The penalties include fines and/or bans, depending on the extent of the over-stay, and the circumstances surrounding that. Fines are applied on the spot at the exit point: bans take immediate effect.

 

It's going to need some nimble footwork and a clear head to stay on top! :-(

[kevina]

I'm not sure you are correct about the 180 day windows. It's been some time since I looked at this but having used the calculator over a 4 year period inputting autumn and winter trips I didn't fnd any "windowing".

I'm pretty certain the 180 days is fluid so you can mix up visits as long as you don't go over 90 in ANY 180.

[Guest pelmetman]

kevina - 2019-08-21 8:26 PM

 

I'm not sure you are correct about the 180 day windows. It's been some time since I looked at this but having used the calculator over a 4 year period inputting autumn and winter trips I didn't fnd any "windowing".

I'm pretty certain the 180 days is fluid so you can mix up visits as long as you don't go over 90 in ANY 180.

 

So start the clock with a day trip to Frogland 89 days before you want to spend 6 months in the sun ;-) .........

 

Then pop down to Gib, get some even cheaper fuel B-) .........

 

Hey presto......the 180 clock gets reset ...........So that's another 90 days in knickers & flip flops :D .........

[Cattwg]

In my understanding the example bellow would be legal:

 

A 90-day autumn trip say 01/10/2019 to 29/12/19. (Or a number of trips adding up to no more than 90days). The 180 ‘window’ being from 01/10/2019 to 28/03/2020.

A 90-day spring trip say from 01/04/2020 to 29/06/2020. (Or again a number of trips totally 90 days) The 180 ‘window’ being from 01/04/2020 to 27/09/2020.

Then the cycle starts again. Hope my arithmetic is correct!

 

Out of interest, where did you find the information on the overstay penalties Brian?

 

John :-D

[Guest pelmetman]

Cattwg - 2019-08-21 9:35 PM

 

Out of interest, where did you find the information on the overstay penalties Brian?

 

John :-D

 

I'm all ears to :D ........

 

Perhaps Brian could highlight some examples of "tourists" being evicted from the EU? ;-) ........

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

 

http://www.euro-dollar-currency.com/overstaying_schengen_visa.htm

[Guest pelmetman]

Derek Uzzell - 2019-08-22 8:43 AM

 

 

http://www.euro-dollar-currency.com/overstaying_schengen_visa.htm

 

From your link ..........

 

"The practice varies by nationality and countries."

 

Any reports of tourists being kicked out of Spain? ;-) ...........

[Billggski]

Plenty of examples of how it works. The Schengen area is a well honed system, so any entry or exit point is monitored.

 

http://www.maxi-pedia.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=6edfbf200d9c29b6c7420c2e8bb1a38c&topic=1433.0

[StuartO]

Brian Kirby - 2019-08-21 7:03 PM ....It's going to need some nimble footwork and a clear head to stay on top! :-(

 

Too complicated for me; I was thinking more along the lines of reducing the duration of our trips by five days each, so we wouldn't exceed 90 days in each year. Hopefully the Schengen clock would start ticking again each Spring.

[Brian Kirby]

StuartO - 2019-08-22 9:44 AM

 

Brian Kirby - 2019-08-21 7:03 PM ....It's going to need some nimble footwork and a clear head to stay on top! :-(

 

Too complicated for me; I was thinking more along the lines of reducing the duration of our trips by five days each, so we wouldn't exceed 90 days in each year. Hopefully the Schengen clock would start ticking again each Spring.

No, it does not relate to calendar years, only to the 180 days that commence when you first enter Schengen. If a 180 day period extends beyond 31 December it is still valid. That is why the regulation is worded as it is: (from memory) 90 days within any period of 180 days. If you spend only 45 days on each trip, the first day of the first trip will initiate the first period of 180 days, and if you want to spent another 45 days later in the year, you will have to wait until the first 180 days has expired before you can do so.

[Bulletguy]

Deneb - 2019-08-20 9:15 AM

 

They've been monitoring entry and exit of other non-EU nationals via the Schengen computer system for many years, so why should they now have trouble with a few extra non-EU citizens?

 

A couple of months ago we returned from a trip to The Netherlands after only three days due to an emergency. Within 10 seconds of producing our passports at outwards border control we were being asked why we were returning to the UK so soon after arriving in a motorhome.

 

FWIW I read a post on a forum some time ago (before the B-word had even materialised) from an Australian tourist who had fallen foul of the vistor rules. He was detected on entering Denmark off of a ferry and spent over 24 hours in detention until it was resolved.

Imagine returning to UK with no passport or proof of ID as i had to some years ago after getting robbed in Spain. Fortunately i had a crime report sheet from the police (they won't bother to give you one....you have to ask for it) but UK immigration still went through a whole raft of questioning.

 

Oddest of all though came some weeks later after applying for a new passport and receiving a letter of refusal. When i contacted them to ask what was wrong the guy told me, "we don't think the person on the photograph is you". I asked how he could know what i looked like when communicating by telephone! It then descended to something more akin to a Pink Panther movie when he said, "we can't, but we still don't believe you are who you say you are on the form". Utterly bizarre! :-S

 

Finally i thought back to re-entering UK and asked if they had access to immigration records. They did, so i gave him the date, time and port i entered back through which thankfully came up on their database.

[Bulletguy]

StuartO - 2019-08-20 10:14 AM

 

I suppose a UK number plate will become a magnet for the attention of police, especially perhaps in France, so touring in the EU may well become more problematic, especially for those who want to stay for long periods repeatedly.

 

We go across twice per year for a maximum of eight weeks (50 days) per visit so I'm hopeful that we won't have to make much adjustment to our plans.

Romanian police were unusually active last year. I was stopped on roadside check four times...two of which were just one village apart. Each time they went through every damn document and knew exactly the date i'd entered Romania and through which control. Bulgarian police are worse though as they look to catch any without a vignette and fines are on the spot and expensive.

[Brian Kirby]

Bulletguy - 2019-08-22 3:46 PM

 

StuartO - 2019-08-20 10:14 AM

 

I suppose a UK number plate will become a magnet for the attention of police, especially perhaps in France, so touring in the EU may well become more problematic, especially for those who want to stay for long periods repeatedly.

 

We go across twice per year for a maximum of eight weeks (50 days) per visit so I'm hopeful that we won't have to make much adjustment to our plans.

Romanian police were unusually active last year. I was stopped on roadside check four times...two of which were just one village apart. Each time they went through every damn document and knew exactly the date i'd entered Romania and through which control. Bulgarian police are worse though as they look to catch any without a vignette and fines are on the spot and expensive.

And Romania and Bulgaria aren't in Schengen, so it wasn't that! :-D

[Brian Kirby]

Brian Kirby - 2019-08-22 2:58 PM

 

StuartO - 2019-08-22 9:44 AM

 

Brian Kirby - 2019-08-21 7:03 PM ....It's going to need some nimble footwork and a clear head to stay on top! :-(

 

Too complicated for me; I was thinking more along the lines of reducing the duration of our trips by five days each, so we wouldn't exceed 90 days in each year. Hopefully the Schengen clock would start ticking again each Spring.

No, it does not relate to calendar years, only to the 180 days that commence when you first enter Schengen. If a 180 day period extends beyond 31 December it is still valid. That is why the regulation is worded as it is: (from memory) 90 days within any period of 180 days. If you spend only 45 days on each trip, the first day of the first trip will initiate the first period of 180 days, and if you want to spent another 45 days later in the year, you will have to wait until the first 180 days has expired before you can do so.

Sorry, I rushed the last bit and omitted to add: unless you can fit the two 45 day trips into the one 180 day period. Start early April and return from the second trip within the 180 days (around the end of September) and without exceeding 90 days actually in Schengen. We may have to adopt a similar strategy ourselves, as trips into Schengen in February don't have that much appeal!

[goldi]

Good afternoon,

 

 

Aparantly 300,000 more people have entered the uk than the authorities know about or calculated not say any thing about illegals. So much for accuracy and efficient technology

[StuartO]

Brian Kirby - 2019-08-22 2:58 PM

 

StuartO - 2019-08-22 9:44 AM

 

Brian Kirby - 2019-08-21 7:03 PM ....It's going to need some nimble footwork and a clear head to stay on top! :-(

 

Too complicated for me; I was thinking more along the lines of reducing the duration of our trips by five days each, so we wouldn't exceed 90 days in each year. Hopefully the Schengen clock would start ticking again each Spring.

No, it does not relate to calendar years, only to the 180 days that commence when you first enter Schengen. If a 180 day period extends beyond 31 December it is still valid. That is why the regulation is worded as it is: (from memory) 90 days within any period of 180 days. If you spend only 45 days on each trip, the first day of the first trip will initiate the first period of 180 days, and if you want to spent another 45 days later in the year, you will have to wait until the first 180 days has expired before you can do so.

 

So in order to be on the safe side, I will have to leave the Schegen Area for the second time each year no later than 180 days from the first entry? So if we enter France each year some time in mid April, we need to be leaving France at the end of our second trip by the middle of October - but we can come and go as we please in between. Is that correct?