Paul Morgan Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 On our recent trip to France/Spain. While we were stopped on an excellent Motor Home Aire at Biarritz (with Electric/Water/Grey/Toilets) which was free!!! we met a very nice German man, who soon started to draw a crowd around his van, as he was pouring gallons of Sunflower Oil into his diesel tank!! What I could gather is that he had his Hymer converted so that it would work on both diesel and oil. The conversion box was under the bonnet and measured about 6"x4"x1". He tried to explain that conversion in germany cost about £200 and said that the engine started on diesel and then when the engine was warm it went over to the sunflower oil. As you can tell I am an expert at engines I don't think! Does anybody out there know anything of this set up? I have since kooked into the costs of oil and it is quite a lot cheaper than diesel. Paul "worms" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
passionwagon Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 8-) Please remember that you will have to inform the customs and excise of the change of fuel (part or whole use) and make a regular return of litres used. You will then be required to pay a duty on this. If you feel they will not find you out remember the use of an undeclared fuel on the road means unlimited fine, possible prison AND confiscation (immediately) of the vehicle. Personally driving behind such a conversion is like travelling behind a chip shop-it stinks! *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Ord Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 This is a regular German item. I came across it when searching Bio Diesel. Problem in this country is it will cost more to run it legally on veg. oil than diesel if you pay the £0.47 per litre tax. Bill Ord Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel E Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 Paul, If you want to do it really cheap and avoid the smell of a chip van following you, you simply buy your (non-dutiable) diesel from a co-operative farmer or canal boat chandler and then remove the red dye by filtering it through carbon. BBQ charcoal does the job, and you can set up a simple system inside your garage. It should fit nicely alongside your whisky still . . . Or you could buy a second-hand farmer's tanker and fill it up with 1,000 litres or so of diesel in Luxembourg (cheapest available near the UK) and just tow it back. All equally illegal, of course. (Ooops - can I get done for incitement to break the law here?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terry1956 Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 Hi, bio diesel can be found over most of germany, But the thing is thats its not a good thing to run any engine on for to long, I have an hymer 2.8td and it was run on german bio diesel for a long time, and it needed a new metering unit, injectors and a fuel tank and fuel line wash out due to the build up of fatty matterial, also diesel oils the metering unit, bio diesel does not, the result being wear of the rotor cam inside the metering unit and blocked injectors, using a good diesel cleaner will help, but then at the price of this one may as well use real diesel. This is written in france and the cost of diesel is .70p per lt, diesel cleaner 3 to 4 euros a bottle, used 1 out of 4 tank fills. Also if you look on most german motorhome sites you will find that there is a lot of bad press re bio diesel. terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terry1956 Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 Hi, bio diesel can be found over most of germany, But the thing is thats its not a good thing to run any engine on for to long, I have an hymer 2.8td and it was run on german bio diesel for a long time, and it needed a new metering unit, injectors and a fuel tank and fuel line wash out due to the build up of fatty matterial, also diesel oils the metering unit, bio diesel does not, the result being wear of the rotor cam inside the metering unit and blocked injectors, using a good diesel cleaner will help, but then at the price of this one may as well use real diesel. This is written in france and the cost of diesel is .70p per lt, diesel cleaner 3 to 4 euros a bottle, used 1 out of 4 tank fills. Also if you look on most german motorhome sites you will find that there is a lot of bad press re bio diesel. terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 An engine suffering from cholesterol!!! Just makes you wonder what it does to us 8-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted February 24, 2007 Share Posted February 24, 2007 Terry, I am very sceptical your Motorhome was run on proper biodeisel. If it is manufactured to european standards then it will not cause the problems you mentioned and is more beneficial to your engine than Mineral diesel. Less wear on Pump parts, does not block injectors and will not leave fatty acids as they have all been converted to Esters. Maybe the full history of the vehicle is not really known and the previous owner was trying different fuels like straight veg oil mixed with parafin or white spirits to thin it. Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terry1956 Posted February 24, 2007 Share Posted February 24, 2007 Hi there, no it was bio fuel that was used, If you check out more about this fuel you will see that long term it does kill the engine, germany motorhome sites are full of bad press on this fuel, also there was a report posted on one other UK motorhome forum giving the chemical breakdown of bio diesel fuels, it was find that like all fuels including diesel/petrol, when left in tanks it under goes a chemical change and in the case of bio diesel forms lumps of fat like material, as you will know old petrol forms a tar like material after a time, Due to having to take legal action against the dealer who sold me the hymer, I had to have a report made out in some detail re the damage done to the fuel system, and the material found in the fuel tank, the make up of the material found in the fuel tank was the residue of bio diesel as sold in germany. the cam of the metering unit had broken up and metal particals from the cam had blocked the injectors. There never was a case for black leg fuel, or home made brews, Just the result of two things lack of lube in bio diesel leading for advanced wear in the metering unit, and the advanced break down of this fuel durring winter layups leading to blocked fuel filters and fuel lines. last year I used bio diesel in germany for one tank full in my transit, I found power went down and so did the MPG, was glad when I could refill with normal diesel, my transit is new and as a good engine, All I can say is that I WILL never used any form of sunflower oil, or bio diesel again. terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted February 24, 2007 Share Posted February 24, 2007 Hi Terry, I never thought about the aging of Biodiesel and I am aware of the aging properties and polymers that are created. Different oils, sunflower, rape, etc, have different aging properties but I did not think it would be a problem over a period of a few months. However I do know sunflower oil is not nearly as good as Oilseed rape for example. I will check out more on this. Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terry1956 Posted February 24, 2007 Share Posted February 24, 2007 Hi, it cost over £1700 to have the fuel system sorted out, and thats a lot of normal diesel. I am aware (radio program) that in some parts of the states sun flower diesel was used by truckers, but after a number of engine faults most have returned back to normal diesel, terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted February 24, 2007 Share Posted February 24, 2007 Bill Ord - 2007-02-23 9:25 AM This is a regular German item. I came across it when searching Bio Diesel. Problem in this country is it will cost more to run it legally on veg. oil than diesel if you pay the £0.47 per litre tax. Bill Ord It is actually 28.35 p per litre tax. It has now been established if using straight vegetable oil and it meets certain standards for ester content and sulphur the lower tax rate applies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted February 24, 2007 Share Posted February 24, 2007 There is also a discusion paper out by the HMRC regarding the removal of duty for small producers of less than 2500 litres a year of Biosiesel. A decision was to me made mid Feb, I do not know what the outcome is. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maggyd Posted February 24, 2007 Share Posted February 24, 2007 Im just tying to imagine 80 ltrs of cooking oil been carried in our van and my BH having to empty them all in the tank!!! (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flicka Posted February 24, 2007 Share Posted February 24, 2007 Hi Terry Have a look at my post 6th Feb on "Bio Fuel" thread:- http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=6354&posts=7 It gives a view from a colleague in the industry who Lab tested some Bio-fuel samples. It has to be remembered that all diesel is essentially BIO. Crude oils are the decomposed remains of plants also. However using virgin vegetable oils will not have the any of the anti "waxing" (caused at low temperatures) and lubricity additives of Diesel. As far as I am aware, the lubricity additives in Diesel, are to compensate for the lower ppm of Sulphur, (now required by legislation) ensuring the fuel system still gets the lubrication required. Regards Flicka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 Processed Biodiesel is actually a better lubricant than Mineral diesel which is also quite abrasive and also contains a lot more crud. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 Hi Flicka, went back and read you other posts you referred to. The stuff your friend tested must have been way short of required specifications. I agree there are some small producers who are making some pretty awful Bio - but the larger manufactires test their bio and processes to make sure they meet EU specs. One of the problems with processing waste vegetable oil is reducing the amout of tallow and animal fats in the oil which will result in esters gelling at a higher temperature. The problem your friend had with the 'lard' like substance remaining when temp was raised was probably soap which can be produced during the process. If so it was clearly not washed properly during the processing to remove this. Whatever, good biodiesel in a ratio of 20% to mineral will not cause problems and is far superior. Cleaner burming, les polutants, less wear on pump parts, and not a high enough percentage to cause problems with it having a cleaning effect on crud built up in fuel system and clogging filters initially in most cases. J. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel E Posted February 27, 2007 Share Posted February 27, 2007 Isn't the solution to use an additive to ensure proper lubrication of the furl system? If you regularly fill up with French supermarket diesel, an additive every other tank full or so is also a good idea - their cheap diesel isn't as good as ours! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted February 27, 2007 Share Posted February 27, 2007 Mel E - 2007-02-27 12:13 AM Isn't the solution to use an additive to ensure proper lubrication of the furl system? If you regularly fill up with French supermarket diesel, an additive every other tank full or so is also a good idea - their cheap diesel isn't as good as ours! It is said by the Biodiesel fraternity that addng Biodiesel (good quailty) actually is a great additive for lubricity of the pump. I think I read and recall French diesel does not have as high a cetane rating as UK diesel. Maybe someone knows more than I do. I always fill up with a tankful at the BP garage in Calais, and certainly do not get the same mileage and after I fill up again in Luxembourg notice a big difference. However could be because I alway use shell apart from calais fillup. Maybe I should search out a shell station in Calais - am sure I have seen one, just cannot remember where. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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