Insurance A frames

[michele]

can I just get this clear in my head ....

Lot's of people tow on A frames

 

1) Do you all actually declare to the insurance Companies that it is an A frame

2) Do you just avoid the question and just say I would like to tow

3) Do you just say its a trailer .

4) Do you get round it some otherway

5) finally are insurance companies quite willing to except

 

I ask because I,m lost with all this IMO they are not safe BUT I am not damming people it's just not for us I ask out of curiosity. As they are illegal in this country but accidents are yet to be tested in court.

 

What I,m trying to ask is has anyone actually had an accident where by they have actually declared the actual A frame and been paid out.

 

Curious

[Mel E]

Michelle,

 

An excellent question.

 

As you know, I used to tow on an A frame - gave up because it was simply too much hassle. I obtained without difficulty:

 

- the motorhome insurer's OK as far as Third Party cover for the towed car and A-frame was concerned (then Norwich Union through Comfort)

 

- the written agreement of two different insurance companies during the 5 years we towed that the car would continue to be covered comprehensively whilst towed on the A-frame.

 

Didn't have any accidents, but came very close several times because the brakes failed to release properly, causing severe over-heating of the wheels and tyres. Fortunately I had had the car's wheels fitted with temp and pressure monitors connected via radio to a dash board display in the motorhome and that alerted me to the problem before it became critical.

 

This problem was initially caused by incorrect fitting of the brake system by the supplier, and subsequently by damage to the brake calipers and then a front wheel bearing caused by the overheating.

 

Mel E

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[Dave Newell]

Hi 'Chele, i can answer your last question as a friend of mine used to tow a Daihatsu people carrier behind his american RV on an A frame. Last year while stationary at traffic lights he was hit from behind by a 7.5 Tonner. The Daihatsu was completely flattened (quite literally), the A frame was mangled, his Rv was shunted forwards into the rear of a 4X4 which was also written off and the front of the RV suffered extensive but not serious damage. his insurance company handled the claim for him and he was paid out for the whoe caboodle including the cost of the A frame.

 

D.

[michele]

Thanks,Mel E & Dave,

Do you think it is fair to say then that your friend was paid out only because 1) is was not his fault

2) because his insurance company did not foot the bill

3) because it was the other guy's fault so therefore this enabled his company to claim from the HGV company.

 

Is anyone aware of anyone who has been paid out under circumstances such as .........

When the traffic suddenly comes to an abrupt halt and the eg the smart they were towing on the A frame overtakes them minus the A frame driverless and consiquently crashes into the back of the stationary traffic.

I am aware that most insurance Companies would pay for the third party damage to the other cars but might be very reluctant to pay for the smart car once finding out it was an A frame .........Is that plain?..Hope so.

 

[Dave Newell]

Sorry 'Chele, as I don't work for the insurance company i can't answer that.

 

D.

[michele]

Sorry , Just seen George,

I wonder who can someone out there must of had something happen or not ?.

[W3526602]

Hi,

 

Once the Smart disconnects, it will be covered by its own insurance.

 

Insurance companies will find it very difficult to avoid a 3rd party claim. A list of non-acceptable exeptions is shown somewhere in the RTA. For instance, they cannot reject a 3rd party claim because of the age of the driver, the condition of the vehicle, or the way it is loaded etc.

 

But they can come back and sue the vehicle owner to recover their losses.

 

602

[Pat]

Hi

 

I have towed with an 'A' frame for a few years now and like Mel had a small problem with the brakes over heating, this was my own fault simply because of not lubricating the brake cable which caused it to stay partially on!

 

You say that they are illegal can you quote what law staes that please?

 

Whilst there is alot of debate as to the legalities of using an 'A' frame and you are obviously totally against their use, I cannot understand why you say they are unsafe I have never heard of one coming adrift from the towing vehicle and causing an accident. I know that it is a possiblility but how many trailers/caravans become detached? I have many many times seen a car with its back wheels in the air hanging from tha A frame of an overturned caravan that must say something as regards the strength of the ball coupling. I bet that there are more instances of cars coming off trailers under extreme braking, as a car on an 'A' frame would surely just run into the back of the camper as the 'A' frame is so short there is not enough room for it to get around to 'overtake'!

 

I find that my tow car is very very convenient not only when away with the motorhome but also as my wife can't drive anymore it makes life so easy when dropping off the motorhome or car(main) for service or if we go to a function and leave the car there I can go and collect it on my own.

 

Finally have you ever used an 'A' frame yourself? If not how do you know that " its just not for you" there are many advantages to using one such as not needing a place to store a trailer when on site or at home, not having to tow the extra weight of a trailer and not having to load the car onto a trailer and secure it.

 

Regards Pat

[michele]

Pat,

I think they are an excellent idea and I can see where you are coming from but I have read in previous posts that they are illegal .

 

I cannot quote the law but if said by such people that have been doing this most of their lifes I tend to believe them as they generally know what they are talking about .

 

I just have a worry that they just slow and push into the back of the towing unit which must make breaking distance far greater .

making a difference between something that might mean a shake up rather than a full scale accident.

 

I have towed a unit 12ft long it had its own internal breaking system and I could feel that pushing me down hill ?. I could smell the breaks .

If the law was clear definite yes or no in England or the continent which would clarify the insurance position I would happy tow a small car on an A frame it seems an excellent Idea.

Unfortunately the people i the know quite rightly warn us that towing on with an A frame is not clear cut .

 

I think its all to do with the fact that they are not independantly breaked .

i think the complexities of getting that done ,it must be easier to just buy or invest in a purpose made car trailer that independantly conforms to all the regs.

At the moment with our circumstances a towed care would not be of any benefit we would loose our independance.

However in years to come I hope this would be all resolved because it would be a massive benefit to use an A frame on a small car because as you clearly say it suits you and you have never had any problems with it.

[Dave Newell]

For a thorough discussion of the legal issues of towing with an A frame see the Frequently asked Questions thread at the top of the forum page.

 

D.

[michele]

Ok Dave . i did try the FAQ and can I see it no ?.

All I can see is the thread locked post's and the stars where is it i wil try again. please Sorry Found it finally....

 

I,m so sorry for starting this thread having read a few for now in the FAQ

 

[W3526602]

Hi,

 

A car being towed by an A-frame must comply with both trailer and car legislation. So....

 

If it has brakes, they must work.

 

The brakes must enable the towed car to be reversed without the driver leaving his seat. I don't think the law actually mentions steering the combination in reverse ( I wonder if locking the steering in straight ahead would help?)

 

As mentioned elswhere, the ACTUAL weight of the towed vehicle must be within the towing limits and train weight of the towing vehicle.

 

I would guess that all of the above can be overcome. But it seems that A-frames are accepted, which isn't quite the same as being legal. I don't think the law prohibits A-frames, but it does give a list of requirements that maybe an A-frame doesn't meet.

 

602

[Guest a1eeyore1]

Not wishing to get this one going yet again but I agree with Pat over the benefits of the A Frame and I believe it can be made to comply with the legislation if it operates the brakes of the towed vehicle thereby meeting the requirement of a braked trailer which is what the car becomes. (According to DoT)

As far as John Williams comment on the need to be able to reverse interestingly a Derek Wright apparently contacted the section of the Dept of Transport responsible for towing and they said We are not aware of a regulation in the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 which states you must be able to reverse a trailer. Reported in Practical Motor Home Oct 2006.

 

 

 

 

[Miami]

I have managed to get our Smart insured while on an 'A' frame. I was told that as it is insured fully comp then it is insured whether it is towed or not. It is even written into the policy so it can be done. Cost £120 with full no claims.

Did have an interesting discussion regarding the no claims bonus situation. You cannot use your no claims on one car and still use it on another  eventhough it is very difficult to drive two cars at once. Have got round it but it could be a problem for some.

We have been towing ours for about a month now and I have to say I hardly know it is there and occasionally switch on the camera to check. I always drive using the gears and rarely feel the need to touch the brakes unless it is an emergency. We do not have brakes on our set up but am looking at attaching a brakebuddy and break away as I think it will be more acceptable if we are stopped.

You can get one in the US for about £450 including shipping not nearly £800 as they are here.

Someone said that it is acceptable (perhaps not legal) to tow on an 'A' frame but if the vehicle has brakes and even if it is below the trailer weight limit then the brakes should work.

Met a guy this week who has just had his Smart fitted to the back of his motor home but has an overrun brake. He is having a lot of trouble with it dis-engaging.

[hymer634]

Comfort Insurance do a special policy to cover cars towed on A frames.

 

Just waiting for the paperwork to arrive so I can check it out before insuring. Quote was about 10% higher than other 'normal' policies.

[Mel E]

Miami,

 

Just to be absolutely clear, the law does state, very clearly, that, regardless of the weights, any trailer fitted with brakes must have them fully working. So you are quite definitely breaking the law towing without brakes. The Brake Buddy should do the job, but is NOT approved for use in the EU and does NOT meet the consitions laid down for trailer brakes in the UK Construction and Use Regulations.

 

There is another point about lack of trailer brakes of which few are aware. Car towing A-frames, unlike ALL other trailer A-frames, are hinged so they can move up and down on the tow hitch and the attachment to the car. This means that, under severe braking, un unbraked car can and will push up above or down and under the A-frame and impale itself in the back of your motorhome. Of course, you use the brakes only gently, but be aware that this may well happen the first time you have to make an emergency stop!

 

Mel E

====

[Miami]

Thaks Mel E for the information. As I understand it the Brakebuddy is not specifically approved but it is not specifically disapproved.

If as you say the Brakebuddy is not suitable, what is your advice on towing a car?

I doubt very much that our Smart car is going to disappear under the back of our MH any more than the caravan did under our 4x4. As a matter of interest the previous owners have towed it all over Italy and Greece without brakes and were never stopped and never had a problem. Does't mean I won't, I know.

I know I feel a lot safer with it not on a trailer. They all look so insecure and you have then got two vehicles to end up coming off the back braked or not!!!!

We only intend to use it in the UK and Ireland as these are probably the most MH unfriendly countries in the EU.

[Mel E]

Miami,

 

OPTIONS:

 

It seems to me you have three options:

 

1. Downsize as we have so you don't need to tow a car - on or off a trailer.

2. Tow the car on a properly braked A-frame - the extra cost is a lot less than the cost of a Brake Buddy.

3. Put your car on a trailer.

 

I would never tow any unbraked trailer. Sure, the car is unlikely to lift up the back of your motorhome and dive under it, but it could easily go over the top.

 

You have now learned that A-frame towing is of very doubtful legality. However, nobody has ever been charged and insurance companies will give cover. It's probably safer than a trailer provided you have a way of monitoring your car's wheels - £400 to fit tyre bands and pressure and temp monitors linked by radio to a dash display is money very well spent.

 

As for Brake Buddy, it doesn't have to be 'not disapproved'. It is a braking device and all braking devices fitted to vehicles registered within the EU have to have EU certification. And they have to comply with Construction & Use Regulations, which Brake Buddy, clever though it is, clearly does not - I won't bore you with the actual regulations.

 

One final point - new C&U regulations, which will be the same across all EU states, are currently wending their way through the EU system. It'll be a few years yet before they become UK Law, but expect them to be definitive about A-frame towing: and almost certainly definitively against!

 

Mel E

====

[Basil]

I know slightly off topic, but I have noticed a resurgance of people asking questions about QPOD with their unique towing system, not on this forum, giving the stated benefit that as they are under the 750kg they do not need brakes. With what is being said here am I right in thinking that as the QPOD is fitted with brakes, which do not operate under tow, then these also would not be legal as the 'brakes are fitted but do not operate' even though the QPOD is under the 750kgs.

 

Bas

[Mel E]

Basil,

 

The law is very clear: a trailer with a MAM (Maximum Authorised Mass) of up to 750 Kgs does not have to be fitted with brakes. BUT, if it is fitted with brakes, then they must be fully operative.

 

It is thus completely illegal to tow a car on an A-frame without working brakes, however small the car or however light it is, since all cars are fitted with brakes (I hope so anyway!)

 

This issue has arisen before with Arcams, etc, which do have a MAM of under 750 Kgs.

 

Incidentally, back to the original thread - I don't think any Smart Car is built with a MAM of under 750 Kgs - correct me if I'm wrong.

 

 

[Miami]

Mel E  One final point - new C&U regulations, which will be the same across all EU states, are currently wending their way through the EU system. It'll be a few years yet before they become UK Law, but expect them to be definitive about A-frame towing: and almost certainly definitively against! Mel E ====

Thanks Mel E

I will probably be past towing anyway by then so I will stick with the brake buddy. I don't know how you think you are so sure about the rules coming out of the EU unless you are party to them. Hopefully, we might pull out eventually or do what all the other members of the EU do and ignore the rules anyway!

[Mel E]

John S (MIami),

 

I know because I'm in contact with those who are directly lobbying over the proposed legislation because I hold a watching brief on behalf of a couple of other organisations (nothing to do with motorhomes!) - and I keep a check on EU web sites, as anyone can.

 

I recognise that membership of the EU is not everyone's cup of tea, but you should note that the UK Government has, over the last few years, introduced far more genuinely NEW laws and regulations restricting our behaviour than even the EU has managed - everything from gun control (our Olympic team has to practice abroad, but not the south London street thugs), through fox hunting (what has actually changed?), to London congestion charging (needed an enabling Act in Parliament, and even the most pro admit it's only reduced traffic by between 5% and 10%), education and the NHS, with the promise of road tolls to come.

 

This is not a party political statement: I'm merely pointing out that leaving the EU will not stop the deluge of new, restrictive legislation that keeps coming our way.

 

We unfortunately live in an age where, increasingly, every politician thinks they 'know better'.

 

Regards,

 

Mel E

====

 

 

[Miami]

Hi Mel E.

Thanks for that info. Reckon I have got a year or two before the new laws overtake me!

I too am fed up with all this legislation. I now know why lots of people are lining up to leave the country but at least 1/3rd of them come back when they find things are not any better or even worse.

Glad I have reached the age when I can look back and say,'perhaps we have had the best of it'. I pity my children and grand-children.

Perhaps there will be a backlash!!!

[W3526602]

Hi,

 

Somebody once pointed out that if you introduce a new law, then more crimes will be committed, unless you get rid of an old law.

 

HMG is claiming a reduction in crime, despite introducing new laws, and using new ways to catch law-breakers. Strange. Unless they don't regard the new law-breakers as criminals, merely voluntary tax-payers.

 

602