French Tolls for a 3500kg MH upgraded to 3850

[Mac Sinclair]

Hi

 

My first post from a new Motorhomer

 

I just bought a Carthago 2015 motorhome which should be good for winter and I’m planning a trip to Switzerland in the winter, travelling initially from Zeebrugge through France to Geneva, then on through To central Switzerland

 

The MH is 6.8m long, 227cm wide and 285cm high, the plate in the bonnet shows 3500 kgs but it has had air suspension fitted and is now rated to carry 3850kgs and is registered as such with the DVLA

 

The loaded weight as we travel will be circa 3500kgs

 

So a few questions

 

1. Autoroute Tolls, what will they be?

 

2. Is there anything I need to write for / get before setting off?

 

3. Will I get away with the 3500kg rating or will I be hit with heavier fees?

 

Obviously I have all the emergency kits, bulbs, spare tyre and chains sorted, the tyres on the vehicle are Michelin Agilis Camper which are mud and snow rated 215/70 15s but I may upgrade to 235/65r16s to handle the weight better and tweak the gearing + get some full all season van tyres with a snowflake, but that’s another story

 

All advice much appreciated

[Wasnt Me]

Weclome to the forum.

 

I would recommend getting a Tag from Sanef or someone else. It save loads of faff at the booths.

 

Striclty speaking you should be class 3 I think, but you should get away with class 2 using a Tag.

 

I don't think you are supposed to use one for over 3.5 tonne, but it will save you some Euros, France is expensive enough.

 

We always have borrowed my Dad's as we were over 3.5 tonne, but have just changed to a panel van that will be under. so I will probably get one.

[StuartO]

As far as I know a MH’s weight isn’t important for French tolls, it’s purely dimensions and the number of axles - and you will be Class 2 because your height is under 3 metres and you presumably only have two axles.

[laimeduck]

Mac Hi

I'm also uprated to 3850kg and always charged as under 3500. I wouldn't bother with a tag - in winter the queues won't be big and you will be class 2. (It's about height). In Switzerland you will need the App "Via" to purchase an HGV 7 day pass for about 24ChF. It's very simple and easy. (At 3850Kg you cannot buy the normal Vignette)

Other than that you seem to have it covered. Autoroute tolls in France are not cheap, but in winter are probably fairly economic in terms of getting mileage done in poor weather and they do tend to keep the Autoroutes open.

Have fun - sounds like a skiing trip? Did them for years towing a caravan - great fun!

Jeremy

[Mac Sinclair]

Hi huge thanks

 

I appreciate the advice

 

I’m likely to do 10 days in Switzerland, maybe 12 and yep it’s a ski trip

 

The Carthago’s Supposed to be warm in winter but I’m going to get an external cover for the Ducato cab windows which should make it perfect

 

Success is keeping my wife warm and happy, so no short compromise seems like the best quality

 

 

[phalange]

I have only ever been charged class 2 in my 4.5t tag axle hymer. I am just under 3m high and 7.5m long.

[teccer1234]

phalange - 2019-10-01 10:33 PM

 

I have only ever been charged class 2 in my 4.5t tag axle hymer. I am just under 3m high and 7.5m long.

 

exactly the same for me, same type van (hymer 694) and always go through as class 2 except over the Millau bridge, 34 euros, so we don't go that way now and still on motorways find it cheaper via Toulouse.

[Derek Uzzell]

Vehicle classification for French autoroutes is explained here

 

https://www.vinci-autoroutes.com/fr/classes-vehicules

 

(I’ve provided a French-language link as autoroutes are French...)

 

Ignoring Class 5 (2 or 3-wheel vehicles) it will be seen that a vehicle’s Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW or PTAC in France) is relevant in the case of all other Classes, with a GVW of 3500kg being the significant threshold.

 

A motorhome having two axles, 6.8m long, 2.85m high and with a GVW not exceeding 3500kg will fall into Class 2. If that vehicle’s GVW is uprated to 3850kg, it SHOULD then be in Class 3.

 

However, the UK policy of permitting a motorhome’s original GVW to be uprated is unheard of in France, so the chances of Mac’s Carthago being charged a Class 3 toll-rate are minimal. As far as I’m aware autoroute toll-stations have no weight-measuring capability (besides which it’s the GVW that matters not a vehicle’s actual weight when it arrives at the toll-station) so the Class/toll-rate will be defined by a vehicle’s height and/or number of axles. Even then (as will be evident from the last two postings) a motorhome that plainly is ineligible for the Class 2 toll-rate, may still be treated as Class 2.

 

Regarding height and its effect on autoroute vehicle-classification, this is more complex than might first appear. It was discussed here

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/French-Motorway-Toll-Classification/48629/

 

[teccer1234]

Derek Uzzell - 2019-10-02 8:35 AM

 

Vehicle calassification for French autoroutes is explained here

 

https://www.vinci-autoroutes.com/fr/classes-vehicules

 

(I’ve provided a French-language link as autoroutes are French...)

 

Ignoring Class 5 (2 or 3-wheel vehicles) it will be seen that a vehicle’s Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW or PTAC in France) is relevant in the case of all other Classes, with a GVW of 3500kg being the significant threshold.

 

A motorhome having two axles, 6.8m long, 2.85m high and with a GVW not exceeding 3500kg will fall into Class 2. If that vehicle’s GVW is uprated to 3850kg, it SHOULD then be in Class 3.

 

However, the UK policy of permitting a motorhome’s original GVW to be uprated is unheard of in France, so the chances of Mac’s Carthago being charged a Class 3 toll-rate are minimal. As far as I’m aware autoroute toll-stations have no weight-measuring capability (besides which it’s the GVW that matters not a vehicle’s actual weight when it arrives at the toll-station) so the Class/toll-rate will be defined by a vehicle’s height and/or number of axles. Even then (as will be evident from the last two postings) a motorhome that plainly is ineligible for the Class 2 toll-rate, may still be treated as Class 2.

 

Regarding height and its effect on autoroute vehicle-classification, this is more complex than might first appear. It was discussed here

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/French-Motorway-Toll-Classification/48629/

 

 

well all I can say is for the last 12 years I've always been classed as class 2 even when the toll operator looks out and checks the tag axles, maybe I've been lucky for all these years

[Clive_Adams]

Think most things have already been covered other than

Use of Propane not Butane

Although not strictly mandatory would advise reading up on snow chains depending on where you intend going and make your own mind up. There are roads in Switzerland were their usage is compulsory.

 

I also go to Switzerland in the winter from the Northern ports and prefer the routes either down through Germany Strasbourg Basel or similar via Luxembourg Basel, again just some food for thought

[Billggski]

You wouldn't be able to upgrade to 16" tyres without changing your wheels. The standard upgrade is to 225 70 15 when moving to 3850kg. Probably will need an international driving permit.

(I assume you've a C1 licence?)

 

If heading to Switzerland then the route through Belgium and Germany is toll free, Austrian motorways have a charge, but you can by pass them.

[Derek Uzzell]

Swapping the Carthago’s tyres from 215/70 R15 size to 235/65 R16 would, of course, also require changing the 15”-diameter wheels for 16”-diameter ones. Doing this would provide a significant increase in the load-carrying capability of the tyres and should raise the motorhome’s overall gearing by about 4%. It would be an expensive exercise though, as it would be necessary to source wheels that matched the present hubs. As Billggski says, the usual upgrade is to fit 225/70 R15 tyres just to the rear axle that normally bears the most weight when a motorhome is loaded.

 

 

[Hans]

The 16 inch wheels to fit 15 inch pitch circle are possible. Overall gearing will increase only of same tyre size on all axles. The lift is 2 cm About the plates still present you can have a problem . But than i need the chassis, fiat light is 3650 max. Do you have AL-Ko? But they can not read The DVLA papers any way.

[Derek Uzzell]

I notice that swapping a motorhome’s 15”-diameter wheels to 16”-diameter ones is mentioned here

 

https://www.tyremen.co.uk/guide/i-have-15%E2%80%9D-wheels-my-motorhome-can-i-upgrade-16%E2%80%9D-wheels-and-tyres

 

as is fitting 225/65 R16CP tyres instead of 215/70 R15CP ones.

 

Although it is definitely possible to fit 16” wheels to a 2015 Ducato ‘light’ chassis that currently has15” wheels, sourcing the 16” wheels may prove tricky. The 16” wheels fitted as standard to Ducato ‘heavy’ chassis cannot be used as the hubs of Ducato ‘heavy’ chassis differ from the hubs of Ducato ‘light’ chassis. So it wil not be just a matter of a trip to a scrapyard and buying some 16” wheels from a written-off Ducato ‘heavy’ van, as those wheels will not be suitable. Fiat does offer 16” wheels (steel or alloy) as an option for the Ducato ‘light’ chassis, and appropriate after-market wheels are advertised (example here)

 

http://vanrims.co.uk/motorhomes/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIhYi0nISC5QIVV-DtCh0A4wdKEAAYAiAAEgJox_D_BwE

 

but the cost of four new 16” wheels, plus the cost of four new 225/65 R16CP tyres, would undoubtedly exceed £1000.

 

As the Tyreman webpage advises, replacing 215/70 R15CP tyres with 225/65 R16CP tyres would raise the vehicle’s overall gearing by about 2% (not the 4% I suggested earlier). When 16” wheels are specified for a Ducato ‘light’ motorhome as a factory-fit option, the tyres will be 225/75 R16CP size and the overall gearing then rises by around 9% compared to when 215/70 R15CP tyres are used. I would have thought that paying £1000+ for a 2% increase in overall gearing would not be worthwhile: conversely, increasing the original gearing by 9% could be a mistake if the motorhome is usually operated well-loaded and its powerplant is the 130 version. My 2015 Rapido has the the 2.3ltre 150 motor and I would not mind a 7th gear that I could exploit occasionally on motorways, but I would not want to retain the present 6-speed transmission and increase the Rapido’s overall gearing by 9% and compromise the flexibility that its present slight under-gearing provides.

 

(It’s stating the obvious, but if tyres with a higher rolling circumference are fitted, a vehicle’s overall gearing will only change if those tyres are fitted to the driven wheels. So - for a front-wheel-drive Ducato - fitting larger-section tyres just to the rear wheels to cope with an increased rear-axle load will not alter the original gearing.)

[Brian Kirby]

Mac Sinclair - 2019-10-01 8:00 PM...............………..The MH is 6.8m long, 227cm wide and 285cm high, the plate in the bonnet shows 3500 kgs but it has had air suspension fitted and is now rated to carry 3850kgs and is registered as such with the DVLA...…………………..

Just one little niggle. From what you have said, the vehicle is not visibly plated at 3,850kg. It seems you have only the DVLA acknowledgement of that via the V5C, plus whatever information has passed to you from the re-plating via the previous owner.

 

Strictly, for legality, the vehicle should carry an inspection plate giving its chassis number plus the permissible axle loads, its MAM and its GTW. This may take the form of an adhesive transfer, or a stamped metal plate, possibly applied over the original Carthago plate, or added somewhere like a door pillar.

 

Without that plate, were you stopped and weight checked, and the plated weight of the vehicle did not match the declared weight on the V5C, you may run into complications. Possibly something to clarify with whoever fitted the air suspension or with the previous owner. DVLA will have required evidence that the van has been properly re-plated before they changed the V5C, and will doubtless have a copy of whatever in the vehicle's registration history.