Schengen Zone

[Brian Kirby]

Cattwg - 2019-12-14 3:02 PM

 

pelmetman - 2019-12-14 8:29 AM

Leaving on the 31st January will be ideal for us folk who like to spend the winter in Spain B-) ........

As we'll just need to do a day trip to France in August to start the 180 day clock, then a day trip to Gib end of January/February to reset the clock ;-) ........

 

My understanding, and I think it’s correct is that the 90 in 180 day rule applies to the Schengen Zone, not to individual Schengen Zone countries. So you can’t simply go from one Schengen country to another to restart the clock.

Cattwg :-D

No, but Gib is not in Schengen, so visiting Gib would count as leaving Schengen. However, my understanding is that you have to leave for at least 24 hours for that visit to count. Anyone?

 

Also, it should be remembered that if entering Schengen at any Channel/North Sea port, the ETIAS clocks start running then and, so far as the 90 days limit is concerned, do not stop running until you actually leave the Schengen zone. Your 90 days has therefore to include your transit time, albeit that time may well be in countries other than that in which you intend staying.

 

So, for example, if travelling to Italy via Calais, the 90 days will include the day you arrive in Calais outbound (so entering Schengen at the French Channel border post), plus the time it takes you to get to Italy via, say, Belgium, Luxemburg, Germany and Austria, plus the time spent in Italy, plus your return via Austria, Germany, Luxemburg, Belgium and France, to the day you leave France via Calais homebound.

[Cattwg]

Brian Kirby - 2019-12-14 4:13 PM

No, but Gib is not in Schengen, so visiting Gib would count as leaving Schengen. However, my understanding is that you have to leave for at least 24 hours for that visit to count.

 

Yes, visiting Gibraltar takes you out of the Schengen Zone. But there’s no way to drive back to the UK or any other country for that matter without re-entering Schengen.

As an aside, if Morocco was on the agenda does entering via Ceuta put you back in Spain and hence the Schengen Zone as you transit Ceuta?

Cattwg :-D

[johnfromnorfolk]

Have I missed something here that I think should easy to understand?

My interpretation is.

You apply for a visa (actually described as a security pass) for 180 days.

The 180 days starts from the day of entry and allows stays of up to 90 days.

It doesn't matter if you stay for 1 day, 50, or 90 days, the visa ends after 180 days after your first port of entry.

If you enter on January 1st and stay for 90 days you have to leave the Schengen area even though your visa would be valid until sometime in May.

Is it that simple?

[johnfromnorfolk]

As an addition to my comments above my interpretation for someone spending the winter in Spain if the current law was applied.

You apply for a 180 day visa.

You leave the U.k. in on November 1st and have to leave the Schengen area by say end of January (90 days later) and cannot apply or return until April (the end of your 180 day visa) after applying for a new visa.

[Bulletguy]

Brian Kirby - 2019-12-14 4:13 PM

 

Cattwg - 2019-12-14 3:02 PM

 

pelmetman - 2019-12-14 8:29 AM

Leaving on the 31st January will be ideal for us folk who like to spend the winter in Spain B-) ........

As we'll just need to do a day trip to France in August to start the 180 day clock, then a day trip to Gib end of January/February to reset the clock ;-) ........

 

My understanding, and I think it’s correct is that the 90 in 180 day rule applies to the Schengen Zone, not to individual Schengen Zone countries. So you can’t simply go from one Schengen country to another to restart the clock.

Cattwg :-D

No, but Gib is not in Schengen, so visiting Gib would count as leaving Schengen. However, my understanding is that you have to leave for at least 24 hours for that visit to count. Anyone?

That can easily be closed off and stopped Brian by the Spanish authorities. It's comparable to what long term tourists to the US used to do to gain another 6 month on their Visa by nipping over the Mexican or Canadian border for a couple of days, then returning back into the US, but the authorities have shut that loophole down long ago now.

[Steve H]

My understanding of this agrees with 'bulletguy' and 'slowdriver'.

 

Firstly we have to accept that our European cousins are free to move around within the Schengen zone with complete freedom. Who's going to check their ID or passports as they pass between EU countries (ever closer union)?

 

We on the other hand are NOT in the Schengen zone and therefore our passports leave a footprint at both UK and EU border controls. On entering the EU we are entitled to stay for up to 90 days, just the same as the visa waiver programmes in other countries. The fact that many have flouted that restriction in the past and got away with it counts for nothing.

 

When we leave the EU we will be entitled to visit the EU for 90 days in any 180 days. The clock does NOT reset after nipping out of the zone for one day. Do you really think they're that stupid?

 

The best way I can explain my understanding of this is to imagine a two year calendar with all dates from January 1st sitting side by side. On that calendar enter your past and propose dates to visit the EU.Then cut out a piece of cardboard with distinct spikes at each end, which represents a period of 180 days. This can then be used to slide along that 2 X 362 day calendar. As you slide along there must not be more than 90 days of presence within the EU appearing within those two spikes.

 

So for example for me I plan to visit Spain next year for three months commencing 1st March for a period of 90 days. I then plan to revisit the EU in September. As long as only 90 days appear as I slide that cardboard along I'm Ok, and my dates should comply with that, as dates from the first visit disappear to the left new dates will appear on the right.

Maybe not the clearest explanation - but I understand it.

 

 

[johnfromnorfolk]

Steve H - 2019-12-14 7:19 PM

The fact that many have flouted that restriction in the past and got away with it counts for nothing.

 

I'm sorry I don't understand that comment.

We (Uk.. citizens) have not flouted the 90 day ruling.

We opted out of the Schengen agreement but were allowed free movement within the area as citizens of the E.U.

[Bulletguy]

johnfromnorfolk - 2019-12-14 7:38 PM

 

Steve H - 2019-12-14 7:19 PM

The fact that many have flouted that restriction in the past and got away with it counts for nothing.

 

I'm sorry I don't understand that comment.

We (Uk.. citizens) have not flouted the 90 day ruling.

We opted out of the Schengen agreement but were allowed free movement within the area as citizens of the E.U.

John, the "90 day rule" has always been present as i explained in a previous post and this is the important bit....when absent from the UK and your 'habitual residential address'. Whilst some Brits genuinely never knew of it's existence, quite a few certainly did (particularly if on regular prescribed meds) but knowingly flouted it as they knew their absence wouldn't be checked at UK border control as it was always overlooked.

 

I only found out about it a few years ago and i'm not alone in this either. If on regular prescribed meds as i am then you should know as your GP and any Pharmacist will tell you 3 month is the max they are allowed to dispense in one block. Some UK mh folk circumvent this by opting for 6 x 1 monthly prescriptions they hand to a reliable friend/relative to collect and post out the meds each month which of course only 'works' if based at the same place, but useless if touring and on the move from one country to another. How you choose to define that dodge is a matter of personal conscience but the bottom line is it's flouting.

 

Forget Schengen and you may as well forget the unfettered free movement (we had) as Brexit voted to end that. In doing so they highlighted the 3 month rule and effectively ended their own fom though typically a few Brits still think of themselves as 'essential' who will continue enjoying unchecked and unfettered fom. They couldn't be more wrong.

 

Those wanting to remain out of UK for periods longer than 90 days every 180 would be better off choosing their country of preference and becoming 'habitually resident' as many immigrant Brits have done, which means forfeiting access to our NHS for one, and EU country doors won't stay open forever, but that's the legitimate way of residing. This link is worth a read.

https://leidenlawblog.nl/articles/the-status-of-uk-citizens-in-the-eu-after-brexit

[johnfromnorfolk]

Thanks for explaining that bulletguy.

The naivety of some people is amazing.

Was talking to a chap in a harbour on Corsica..

He (a Brexiteer) and his wife had sailed their boat from the U.K. to the island on their way to Greece.

I mentioned that his two year trip could hit problems with the 90 day rule after Brexit.

He arrogantly said waving his arms "These people won't want to see the back of us".

He was the only Brit in a harbour full of boats from Germany, France, Holland etc.

He admitted that apart from a beer in one bar he had spent little in the town.

I think some folk are in for a shock.

 

[phalange]

And deservedly do, (it's not nice to insult people)s

[Derek Uzzell]

There are several Schengen Zone 180/90-days on-line calculators. The one on this webpage is easy to understand and permits entry of data relating to past and future stays in the Zone.

 

https://adambard.github.io/schengencalc/

 

A example of the type of output provided is shown in the two attachments below, with the 2nd attachment highlighting the fallacy that moving out of the Zone for very short periods will have a major beneficial effect.

 

 

 

[flyboyprowler]

Bulletguy - 2019-12-14 9:00 PM

 

Those wanting to remain out of UK for periods longer than 90 days every 180 would be better off choosing their country of preference and becoming 'habitually resident' as many immigrant Brits have done, which means forfeiting access to our NHS for one, and EU country doors won't stay open forever, but that's the legitimate way of residing. This link is worth a read.

https://leidenlawblog.nl/articles/the-status-of-uk-citizens-in-the-eu-after-brexit

 

The deal has yet to be decided, but I agree, that a non EU citizen will only be able to spend the maximum of 90 days in 180, and that 180 days will start the day the EU is entered. However, What I am not sure about is that even a residency in any EU country, with the penalties already mentioned, plus frozen state pensions, would entitle the holder of a UK passport free travel in the EU, and that the standard penalties would apply to those that flount the rules.

[Barryd999]

For the OP if he is going out October we will still effectively still be in the EU just not in name so all the same rules including freedom of movement apply. If we leave properly at the end of December next year I reckon he will have 90 days from then so if he is coming back early April he will be over but not by much. Officially you would probably have to come back towards the end of March but there is bound to be a bit of grace I would have thought (maybe not (lol) )

 

Anyway there is no chance that Johnson will get a deal by then so the transition period will just go on and on probably.

[Brian Kirby]

Bulletguy - 2019-12-14 6:44 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2019-12-14 4:13 PM

 

Cattwg - 2019-12-14 3:02 PM

 

pelmetman - 2019-12-14 8:29 AM

Leaving on the 31st January will be ideal for us folk who like to spend the winter in Spain B-) ........

As we'll just need to do a day trip to France in August to start the 180 day clock, then a day trip to Gib end of January/February to reset the clock ;-) ........

 

My understanding, and I think it’s correct is that the 90 in 180 day rule applies to the Schengen Zone, not to individual Schengen Zone countries. So you can’t simply go from one Schengen country to another to restart the clock.

Cattwg :-D

No, but Gib is not in Schengen, so visiting Gib would count as leaving Schengen. However, my understanding is that you have to leave for at least 24 hours for that visit to count. Anyone?

That can easily be closed off and stopped Brian by the Spanish authorities. It's comparable to what long term tourists to the US used to do to gain another 6 month on their Visa by nipping over the Mexican or Canadian border for a couple of days, then returning back into the US, but the authorities have shut that loophole down long ago now.

Ah, but that wasn't what I had in mind. :-) What I had in mind was simply that time spent in Gib would not count as time spent in Schengen - providing, of course, that your passport is recorded leaving Spain/Schengen when entering Gib, and again when leaving Gib to re-enter Spain/Schengen.

 

Time spent in Gib (or any other non-Schengen state), does not count as time spent in Schengen - with the above proviso regarding one's passport being recorded out of, and back into, Schengen.

[Derek Uzzell]

As was emphasised on this thread’s first page, the UK has never been part of the Schengen Area - consequently the ‘3-month’ rule applies to UK residents now and will continue to apply.

 

Schengen rules relate to the Schengen Area and not to the EU. The ’3 months in a rolling 6 months period’ limit has applied to UK travellers since 2013 and, unless the UK becomes an associate member of the Schengen Area post-Brexit (highly unlikely) there will be no change to that limit where UK travellers are concerned.

 

Although UK travellers who visit Schengen Area countries repeatedly may need to keep an eye on the total number of days they spend in the Area, any UK traveller who spends a continuous period over 90 days in the Area (eg. weldted’s usuall late-October-to-early-early-April trip) must inevitably exceed the Schengen limit. But that has been so since 2013 and Brexit won’t alter it.

[Brian Kirby]

flyboyprowler - 2019-12-15 9:45 AM

 

 

Those wanting to remain out of UK for periods longer than 90 days every 180 would be better off choosing their country of preference and becoming 'habitually resident' as many immigrant Brits have done, which means forfeiting access to our NHS for one, and EU country doors won't stay open forever, but that's the legitimate way of residing. This link is worth a read.

https://leidenlawblog.nl/articles/the-status-of-uk-citizens-in-the-eu-after-brexit

 

The deal has yet to be decided, but I agree, that a non EU citizen will only be able to spend the maximum of 90 days in 180, and that 180 days will start the day the EU is entered. However, What I am not sure about is that even a residency in any EU country, with the penalties already mentioned, plus frozen state pensions, would entitle the holder of a UK passport free travel in the EU, and that the standard penalties would apply to those that flount the rules.

The above link wouldn't work for me, so I found the article on the Leiden website and tried a TinyURL link instead: here http://tinyurl.com/sgtwoba I hope this one will work for others (it does for me) as the article, thought somewhat complicated, is very instructive.

[slowdriver]

Derek Uzzell - 2019-12-15 11:59 AM

 

Although UK travellers who visit Schengen Area countries repeatedly may need to keep an eye on the total number of days they spend in the Area, any UK traveller who spends a continuous period over 90 days in the Area (eg. weldted’s usuall late-October-to-early-early-April trip) must inevitably exceed the Schengen limit. But that has been so since 2013 and Brexit won’t alter it.

 

First , many thanks for the various comments that have been made here. They have provided additional insight and confirmation of my understanding of how the 90/180 day Schengen Area works.

 

Derek's latest comment provides further clarification. It is legally correct I think that " any UK traveller who spends a continuous period of 90 days in the Area must exceed the limit...and Brexit won't alter that". However once we have left l anticipate that visits will be more closely monitored and that the probability of being refused entry if you have already utilized all of the 90 days within the last 180, will increase significantly. So while there is not a legal change, practically Brexit will make it more difficult to ignore the current restrictions.

 

[Barryd999]

Derek Uzzell - 2019-12-15 11:59 AM

 

As was emphasised on this thread’s first page, the UK has never been part of the Schengen Area - consequently the ‘3-month’ rule applies to UK residents now and will continue to apply.

 

Schengen rules relate to the Schengen Area and not to the EU. The ’3 months in a rolling 6 months period’ limit has applied to UK travellers since 2013 and, unless the UK becomes an associate member of the Schengen Area post-Brexit (highly unlikely) there will be no change to that limit where UK travellers are concerned.

 

Although UK travellers who visit Schengen Area countries repeatedly may need to keep an eye on the total number of days they spend in the Area, any UK traveller who spends a continuous period over 90 days in the Area (eg. weldted’s usuall late-October-to-early-early-April trip) must inevitably exceed the Schengen limit. But that has been so since 2013 and Brexit won’t alter it.

 

Im not sure that is quite correct. I thought as members of the EU free movement allowed us to spend as much time as we liked in EU schengen countries but if we stayed 90 days or more in "one" of those countries you were supposed to register. After we leave the EU we become a third country and no longer have free movement and would only be allowed 90 days in the entire schengen area.

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Derek Uzzell - 2019-12-15 11:59 AM

 

As was emphasised on this thread’s first page, the UK has never been part of the Schengen Area - consequently the ‘3-month’ rule applies to UK residents now and will continue to apply.

 

Schengen rules relate to the Schengen Area and not to the EU. The ’3 months in a rolling 6 months period’ limit has applied to UK travellers since 2013 and, unless the UK becomes an associate member of the Schengen Area post-Brexit (highly unlikely) there will be no change to that limit where UK travellers are concerned.

 

Although UK travellers who visit Schengen Area countries repeatedly may need to keep an eye on the total number of days they spend in the Area, any UK traveller who spends a continuous period over 90 days in the Area (eg. weldted’s usuall late-October-to-early-early-April trip) must inevitably exceed the Schengen limit. But that has been so since 2013 and Brexit won’t alter it.

I think this needs reading alongside Article 7.1 (b) of EU Directive 2004/38/EC, which seems to me to say that the restriction to 90 days stay applies only to continuous stays by EU citizens on the territory of a single EU State (and thereafter is subject to whatever legislation is applicable within that state).

 

For the purposes of Schengen, if a person moves out of that state to another Schengen state, an EU citizen is entitled to a further 90 days in that state and so on, as the Schengen Directive specifically incorporates, by reference, the above Article 7.1 (b) of EU Directive 2004/38/EC.

 

As I read the two documents together, it seems to me that the 90 days period does not apply to EU citizens exercising their right to free movement, contingent on their observing the requirements of that right.

 

It seems to me that the 90 day rule will only apply to us when visiting the Schengen area once we cease being EU citizens, and become nationals of a third country (albeit a country that is subject to the Schengen Visa waiver arrangements).

[Cattwg]

"" After we leave the EU we become a third country and no longer have free movement and would only be allowed 90 days in the entire schengen area.""

 

The above from Barryd999 has always been my understanding of the Schengen 90/180 rule.

Cattwg :-D

[Guest pelmetman]

Barryd999 - 2019-12-15 12:46 PM

 

Derek Uzzell - 2019-12-15 11:59 AM

 

As was emphasised on this thread’s first page, the UK has never been part of the Schengen Area - consequently the ‘3-month’ rule applies to UK residents now and will continue to apply.

 

Schengen rules relate to the Schengen Area and not to the EU. The ’3 months in a rolling 6 months period’ limit has applied to UK travellers since 2013 and, unless the UK becomes an associate member of the Schengen Area post-Brexit (highly unlikely) there will be no change to that limit where UK travellers are concerned.

 

Although UK travellers who visit Schengen Area countries repeatedly may need to keep an eye on the total number of days they spend in the Area, any UK traveller who spends a continuous period over 90 days in the Area (eg. weldted’s usuall late-October-to-early-early-April trip) must inevitably exceed the Schengen limit. But that has been so since 2013 and Brexit won’t alter it.

 

Im not sure that is quite correct. I thought as members of the EU free movement allowed us to spend as much time as we liked in EU schengen countries but if we stayed 90 days or more in "one" of those countries you were supposed to register. After we leave the EU we become a third country and no longer have free movement and would only be allowed 90 days in the entire schengen area.

 

 

Hmmm :-| .......

 

Why are so many citizens of non Shengen Zone........Non EU countries able to spend more than 90 days in Spain? :-S .........

 

Surely they've all used a EU border post to enter with their Russian registered's 4x4 BMW and Merc's? :-S .......

 

Plus surely they should have by now re-plaited their vehicles? ;-) .........

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

It might help to look here: http://tinyurl.com/y7eurmj8 which is a Wiki entry on Schengen, with maps that show which countries are in, and not in, Schengen, distinguishing those EU states not currently Schengen members, as well as those non-EU states which are members of Schengen. Also, perhaps worth noting that Andorra is neither EU nor Schengen.

[Guest pelmetman]

Brian Kirby - 2019-12-15 4:03 PM

 

It might help to look here: http://tinyurl.com/y7eurmj8 which is a Wiki entry on Schengen, with maps that show which countries are in, and not in, Schengen, distinguishing those EU states not currently Schengen members, as well as those non-EU states which are members of Schengen. Also, perhaps worth noting that Andorra is neither EU nor Schengen.

 

Why don't you want to deal with the reality out here in Spain Brian? :D ........

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

pelmetman - 2019-12-15 3:55 PM.................

Hmmm :-| .......

Why are so many citizens of non Shengen Zone........Non EU countries able to spend more than 90 days in Spain? :-S .........

Surely they've all used a EU border post to enter with their Russian registered's 4x4 BMW and Merc's? :-S .......

Plus surely they should have by now re-plaited their vehicles? ;-) .........

Well, as you're much closer to Spain and the Russians then we are, Dave, why not ask around and find out? It would be interesting to know.

 

It's about 1,200 miles as the crow flies from the border of Belarus to the Spanish border, so it's not exactly an overnight flit! :-)

 

BTW, looking at the Leiden University law school link, I have a feeling that "residencia" ? you obtained (which I think was probably granted under the procedure for EU citizens), will become invalid at the point the UK legally leaves the EU on 31 Jan 2020. After that date you'll need to get something similar under the procedure for long-term residency for third countries - which may be what your Russian mates have been doing.

[Brian Kirby]

pelmetman - 2019-12-15 4:09 PM

Brian Kirby - 2019-12-15 4:03 PM

It might help to look here: http://tinyurl.com/y7eurmj8 which is a Wiki entry on Schengen, with maps that show which countries are in, and not in, Schengen, distinguishing those EU states not currently Schengen members, as well as those non-EU states which are members of Schengen. Also, perhaps worth noting that Andorra is neither EU nor Schengen.

Why don't you want to deal with the reality out here in Spain Brian? :D ........

Unfortunate coincidence Dave. Your post arrived just before my 4:03 post, which was not in response to yours despite being immediately below it. My response to your post about the Russians was posted at 4:19.