Old motorhomes for new

[Guest Derek Uzzell]

The UK market for new motorcaravans is said to be extremely buoyant, but that doesn't mean buyers are queuing up to grab every motorhome the instant it arrives on a dealer's forecourt. Recently, while visiting a motorhome dealership (it was on our way back to the car and there was some time left on the car-parking ticket), I noticed a couple of coachbuilt 'vans that, although being sold as 'new', might more accurately have been described as 'unused'. One in particular had seriously rusted brake-disks - an ominous sign - and a glance at the tyres' data section revealed "0404" (ie. the tyres were made during the 4th week of 2004). OK, I accept that a vehicle's original tyres can be older than the chassis (though usually not by much); also that a coachbuilt motorhome's chassis may have languished in the base-vehicle manufacturer's compound for some time before conversion takes place. But that doesn't change the fact that much of this 'new' motorhome was already well over a year old nor, based on the state of its disks, that it had been static for much of that time. There's no special moral to this posting - it's just a reminder that it makes sense to confirm a new motorhome's age before deciding to buy.

[Guest martin h]

funny you should bring this up but having just taken my "brand new" motorhome on afiat ducato for arepair under warranty i was told that it was almost up as the first reg of the fiat was 2003! of course the sales details rectified this but i was told that perhaps the base vehicle was built and reged back then in Italy. I,ve not brought this up with the dealership yet so has anyone any thoughts on the matter first.

[Guest Mike C]

Hello Derek, Can only agree with your advice about confirming the age of the vehicle before purchase. As the start point of the manufacturing process the base vehicle age is the best indicator but also how long since the coachbuilder completed the vehicle? Every vehicle has a Vehicle Identity Number and this contains the date and place of manufacture. A quick phone call to the manufacturers care-line or a main dealer can establish the age of the base vehicle. Similarly the coachbuilder uses a serial or identity number and this should give the date of build. If somebody buys the van with seriosly rusted brake discs will the dealer have them replaced prior to sale? What about the state of the tyres if the van has stood in the same place for the best part of a year?

[Guest Mel B]

One practice I hate is when dealers remove the number plates etc so that the age of the vehicles is not always obvious. We had a problem with a second hand van a few years back. We were seriously considering buying it as it was being displayed as a 3 year old van according to the blurb on the window and what we were told by the salesman at the time, it was also a good price and a layout that we liked. However, I was a bit concerned to see that the bottom edge of the window surround, where the window goes down into, has quite a but of bubbling on both sides, I pointed this out and said I found it hard to believe that this was such a young vehicle with this problem already coming through. The salesman at first was adamant that the van was only 3 years old but when we were more persistant on checking the details the van turned out to be over 5 years old, this then made the price quite high for it's age which is why there wasn't an obvious error in the first place based on value. If the dealer hadn't removed the number plates originally we would've known from the off, whether or not he altered the 'blurb' later we'll never know as we just walked away. Oh, and yes, we were at a major dealership not long back and had a wander round the vans and were also concerned at the number of so-called 'new' vans had obviously been hanging around for a while - the discs were very rusty, undersides were also showing a bit of age ... but then again, how many of us have seen rows and rows of new card lined up in stock yards at the dock side, near to motorways etc, all waiting for buyers of that 'brand new' vehicle? Buyer beware and make sure you're getting what you're paying for .. a new van. You can also check how old the vehicle is by having a snoop at the other bits and pieces attached to it, you can sometimes see when items were manufactured so you know the vehicle can't be older than that piece.

[Guest Derek Uzzell]

martin h: Based on letters in leisure magazines (not just UK ones) and forum comments your experience is certainly not unique. What seems to happen is that when a 'chassis' is sold (or allocated) to a motorhome converter the date of sale/allocation is recorded in the chassis manufacturer's database. This date also marks a provisional start of the warranty period for that chassis. Later on (sometimes much later on) the chassis is converted into a motorhome and, after a further delay (quite often a long delay) the motorhome finds a buyer and is registered in the country of sale. At this point the vendor (normally a dealer) should provide the sale-date to the motorhome converter and chassis manufacturer so that their records can indicate that their respective warranties begin on that date. I've no idea how this process works in practice - whether the vendor contacts both parties separately or whether the vendor tells the converter who tells the chassis manufacturer - but the procedure must be relatively straightforward and effective otherwise the problem would be epidemic. However, there's no doubt that the final sale-date occasionally fails to replace the original one in the chassis manufacturer's database and, consequently, the original warranty start-point isn't adjusted forwards. SEVEL (Citroen/Fiat/Peugeot)-based motorhomes seem to be the most common victims of this bureaucratic lapse, but that may just be because of the numbers sold. As far as I'm aware, the problem only arises with imported motorhomes (perhaps you'll prove me wrong on this!). It seems you've had little difficulty getting your Fiat's warranty start-date changed: apparently some owners have had much more trouble doing this. As Mike C says, you can discover the age of your motorhome's chassis and conversion via its ID numbers, but the tyre manufacture-date should offer a quick-and-dirty check. If you do discover your 'van started life in 2003, I'm not sure what you can do about it vendor-wise - it might depend on how it was sold to you initially. With any motorcaravan conversion there's bound to be a delay between construction of the base-vehicle and the completed motorhome finding an owner: how long that delay can be before it becomes unacceptable for the vehicle to be classed as 'new' is a tricky question that I'm unable to answer.

[Guest martin h]

thanks for the input folks but I,m still not sure what i think about the isue. from my viewpoint does it realy matter when the base was made if i,ts been stored properly and has done no miles? would the vehicle deteriate under these curcumstances and is the resale value affected?I need to think a little!!!p.s. the motorhome was purchased in Germany,built in Italy

[Guest Mike C]

Hello Martin, The condition of the vehicle will depend on how and for how long the vehicle has been stored and whether the manufacturers protective system (covers, wax coating etc.,) had been removed. Even with the protection the vehicle will deteriorate with time. Derek has mentioned rusty brake discs and tyres but there is also mechanical items to consider such as engine components and oil drain down, hubs and exhaust system. Damp in the vehicle cab/living area is another consideration and maybe even rodent infestation. If the vehicle has been stored correctly and regularly checked and moved it should be no different to your own over winter or extended storing. Personally if I was buying a new vehicle and found that it was manufactured many months before I would probably not purchase it. If I did I would want a full engineers inspection before making the decision and even if it was OK expect a discount to cover the age. Remember that when you sell it the buyer (maybe the same dealer) will probably raise these very same issues with you. Regards, Mike C

[Guest eddied]

Hello, this can of course also apply to used vehicle purchases. In 2003 I bought a Bessacarr E645 first registered in May 2001 (Y reg.), therefore at first glance 2 years old. Of course the Bessacarr E645 was a 1999 model(the converters plate shows July 99) and the Fiat Ducato chassis on which it was built was also a 1999 model. Have to be careful when locating spares because in fact the Ducato 2.8 JTD chassis was modified in 2000. This problem arose when someone vandalised the lateral indicators on the cab, and was looking for replacemts. A spares dealer (in Italy!) couldn't locate them first off because he was looking for 2001 types, completely different to the 1999 ones. saluti, eddied

[Guest Derek Uzzell]

Martin: Regarding deterioration, there are certain motorhome components that will degrade unless the vehicle is used, and this will happen however carefully the 'van is stored. Tyres in particular fall into this category and I understand their recommended shelf-life is one year. If your Mobilvetta's chassis was constructed in 2003 and the vehicle had done no miles when you purchased it in January 2005 (I've revisited your earlier postings) then its tyres will have passed their 'sell-by date' at that point. Lead-acid batteries also have a shelf-life and don't take kindly to lack of attention. I would think it inevitable that a second-hand 2004-model Icaro P7 motorhome would fetch less money than a 2005 model, even if specification, condition, mileage, etc. were otherwise identical. Similarly, if I were buying 'new' from a dealer's forecourt, I would expect to pay less for a 2004-model than for a 2005. I've looked at Palmowski's latest advertisement in MMM and noted that Icaro P7's are still being offered. There is no indication these are not current models, but neither does it specifically say they are. The price is VERY competitive - even with all the freebies it's still some 10,000 Euros below the ex-VAT list-price of a LHD P7. If I were in your position, I would want to be absolutely sure that all warranties (Fiat base-vehicle, Mobilvetta conversion, watertightness and appliances) do begin from the purchase date. I'd also be curious about the pattern of the delay between the Fiat chassis being manufactured and Palmowski handing the motorhome over. (Was there a long delay between chassis-build and conversion, or was most of the delay after the conversion was complete?) Discovering this should be possible via the motorhome's ID numbers, though conversion build-date details are sometimes contained within the documentation accompanying the motorhome.

[Guest Tom]

Cam belts, alternator belts and hoses also have a shelf life as do wiper blades. The small hose used on diesel engines for the "return to tank" lines are especially life limited. They go porus then look darker and everything smells of diesel. If you have a motorhome for occasional use then one with a chain driven cam has a distinct advantage over those with belts. Cam belts are not low cost to replace whereas most other rubber(ish) bits are.

[Guest Derek Uzzell]

Martin: I've just realised I was wrong about the Palmowski adverts in MMM regarding the Icaro P7. Although the advert in the January issue of the magazine didn't mention the P7's specific model-year, from February issue onwards there has been a (very) small-print addition indicating that the P7s being advertised are 2005 models. I've no idea whether this amendment is significant, or relevant as far as you are concerned. If the P7 you purchased in January 2005 is a 2004 model, then it wouldn't be unusual for its chassis to have been constructed in 2003. However, if it's a 2005 model, then either there is something odd about its paperwork or the chassis must have been kicking its heels for a long while somewhere prior to the conversion by Mobilvetta. Perhaps Fiat make these chassis in small batches specially for Mobilvetta (I notice the chassis specification is high and includes air rear-suspension) and they are held in storage until needed. As your forum postings suggest you are on good terms with Palmowski, why don't you raise the matter of the Fiat warranty start-date with them? A reputable motorhome dealer will want to know if a customer has encountered problems and there may be a perfectly rational explanation for this apparent anomaly.