3850 or 3500?

[Uncle Bulgaria]

Hello everyone. A new member for this very informative forum. The boss and I are about to buy our first motorhome. Endless research completed, we are about to commit to a purchase. I've been a regular reader of the forum, and recognise the great experience that many contributors have on all things to do with motorhomes, so here is a question that I still have to resolve.

 

The motorhome we fancy has a MTPLM of 3850 Kg against a MIRO inclusive of driver, fuel, water and gas etc) of 3170 Kg, giving a payload of 680 Kg for a motorhome with four travel seats. But, are there significant downsides to a vehicle weight of 3850? I think this weight puts it in the medium commercial vehicle class rather than the LCV for weights up to 3500 Kg. Are there significant disadvantages arising from this?

 

The manufacturer will plate the vehicle at 3500 if required, but this takes the payload down to only 330 Kg. The vehicle does have a 130 L water tank, so running with this near empty would push up the payload to 400 +. What would forum members advise?

 

Why Uncle Bulgaria? Well, my student daughter and her university friend assigned this nickname to me. They saw me as a benign, kindly individual, always trying to get the young people to care for their environment and fellow human beings. Ideal material for a motorhomer?

[spartan3956]

I owned a vehicle 3500kg and now a 3850kg the difference is the Alko chassi basically its a maxi now with higher payload.

Classification to my knowledge is the same i pay exactly what i did for the old one in relation to road tax and exactly the same for the MOT class.

I do know what the new driving licence restricts newdrivers to 3500kg but i have an old licence which allows me to drive up to 7500kg

 

Pete

[Brian Kirby]

Richard

You've chosen quite a heavy van, and I'd say it just won't work at 3,500Kg.

However, at 3,850Kg you will be subject to lower speed limits throughout most of Europe as well as UK.  You will be excluded from some motorway overtaking lanes.  You'll get through Switzerland for less at 3,850 than at 3,500, but you'll need a "Go Box" for Austria in lieu of a vignette.

Due to weight, you will use rather more fuel.

I assume you have the requisite driving licence for a vehicle over 3,500Kg?  If this is because you passed your driving test before Jan 1 1997, remember you will need to pass a medical test to retain that right beyond 70 years of age.

Travelling without on board fresh water works for some, but it does restrict how you use the van.  It means part filling the tank whenever you stop, which in turn means you will have to choose your stopovers accordingly, and empty it plus the waste water tank every time you move.  This, especially the latter, may become rather a fag in practice.  There are more hose points than drain points!

If you really want to do Uncle Bulgaria, I'd suggest a lighter van with concomitant lower fuel consumption!  But that would only start your research cycle all over again :-)

[Roamer]

I agree with all of the info given so far, except that as far as I have accertained, the reduced speed limit in the UK for a private vehicle is governed by the unladen weight not the MTPLM. See "speed limits for motorhomes" on this forum - Link

 

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=6483&posts=14

 

My main point that you must take into consideration is that the published MIRO figure is +/- 5%, therefore 3170 Kg MIRO could come in at 3095 + 5% of 3095 + 75Kg (driver) = 3095+155 +75 = 3325 Kg leaving a load margin of only175Kg on the 3500Kg chassis. Having been in this situation in the past I now always work with the worst case scenario, which if exceeded has legal redress.

 

I have also noticed that some manufacturers are stating two values for the fresh water - first a travelling value of say 20 ltrs and a camping value of the size of the tank. I have yet to discover which figure the mass of 90% of the water capacity is based on, but why create a travelling value if it is not the put the spec of the vehicle in a better light.

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Agreed

However, I don't think this van will actually be caught under the UK restrictions, unless some rather heavy fixtures are added!  Don't forget it is the actual unladen weight that will govern , not the ex-works figure set by the manufacturer.  Apologies: I did not make this caveat clear when posting. 

See also MelE's excellent post on the subject of kerbweight and MIRO under the string "Towing: vehicle and licence restrictions".

Still, the speed limit issue is probably not that onerous, even if a bit of a nuisance at times.  The main point is that this van just won't work flexibly, if at all, as a motorhome at 3,500Kg MTPLM!

[RonB]

Just to make clear. You will go THROUGH Switzerland cheaper but it will be dearer if you stay for anything over twelve days with a 3850kg outfit. You will also be subject to queuing and form filling at the border in order to get documentation whether you go straight through or not.

[Uncle Bulgaria]

Can I, belatedly, thank everybody who contributed their advice on this topic. Certainly helped me to better understand the issues for and against. I've gone for the 3850 maximum weight as payload is more important to me than maximum speed. The van is ordered, but now the long wait until the next production run. Thanks again to all. :-D

[Uncle Bulgaria]

Funny old world isn't it? I contacted the forum some months ago seeking advice on the implications of going for a 3850 Kg MTPLM motorhome with a decent payload (680 Kg)as opposed to a 3500 Kg version with modest payload. I went for the 3850 as the downsides were not penalistic, and placed the order with a planned delivery in October.

 

Last week the suppler 'phoned to say that the manufacturer was not planning to make my chosen model next season (Burtner Delfin Performance on the Renault Master). Collapse of all plans and deep despond settled. Immediatley set about checking availability of other models that were on my original shortlist, and find that I can take delivery of a new Knaus Sun Ti on the Renault Master platform cab, in mid July. Wonderful! But, the matter of payload raises its head again. Its plated at 3500 Kg but with a user payload of just 379 Kg (after allowing 168 Kg for essential habitation equipment) its too low for comfort, even assuming the MIRO figure is as published in the brochure and not 5% higher!. Is the solution to replate the vehicle to 3850 Kg? I have no problems with my driving licence or age (well not for 10 more years anyway).

 

I've looked at various threads on the forum, and replating seems to be an option. I've been in touch with SvTech, who seem to have carried this out on Renault Master based motrohomes. Steven at Svech quoted the axle limits as 1850 Kg and 2060 Kg. He also advised that SvTech had tested the Renault Master and the replating would be a paper exercise and not require modification or testing of the vehicle.

 

Would members like to comment or give other thoughts on how I should proceed. I'm inspecting the vehicle at the supplier's premises tomorrow, and I've told them that I want the vehicle weighed empty before I will take the purchase any further. If the MIRO is greater than the brochure figure then I'm inclined to decline to proceed with the purchase, and risk losing my deposit. But, if replating to a higher MTPLM is possible through a paper exercise then this may solve the problem. Advice greatly appreciated.

[david lloyd]

Hi

 

I'm not sure about replating but would certainly take the advice of SVtech as one of the reliable companies who do that sort of thing.

 

As you now know there are many issues for and against having a van more than 3.5t but we have the Sun Ti (and what a fabulous vehicle it is too) on the Renault Master plated at 3.5t. It is a little tight but after weighing with a full load for a long trip - full water tank, full diesel tank etc - we are just on the limit. Neither of us is - how shall I say? - undernourished, so a generous part of the payload is accounted for there. If we do need to carry a bit more than usual (perhaps the return trip from france with a good supply of the old 'vin rouge') then we simply run with less water to compensate.

 

Since your original post there has also been threads on the fast becoming popular Low Emission Zones in cities - especially Germany but this will spread throughout europe. London has announced the scheme for London which has implications for vehicles over 3.5t (although if you are buying new it should be OK as it will be euro IV compliant for emissions) and this could slowly start to affect the ability of anyone with a heavier van to tour in certain places.

 

Whatever you decide I hope you enjoy the Sun Ti as much as we do.

 

Best regards, David

[Brian Kirby]

Not sure what SV Tech mean by a "paper exercise".  If they mean they can issue and attach new vehicle plates, with the documentation to modify your V5C registration document without further inspection of the vehicle, fine.  If they mean they'll just look at it and give you a piece of paper saying it's OK for 3,850Kg, I wouldn't pursue it further with them!

Do be aware that the manufacturer's original plate has built in tolerances, hence the sum of the two maximum axle loads exceeds the plated MTPLM.  In practice, once the actual laden weight gets much above the original MTPLM, it is very difficult to avoid overloading one, or other axle.  It is usually the rear axle that is under threat, but this depends on the layout of the van and especially the rear overhang.  Loads placed between the axles are distributed proportionately to their position.  However, loads placed outside the wheelbase, quite common with longer rear overhangs and spacious underbed "boots", place a higher load onto the rear axle than their self- weight (the difference is subtracted from the load on the front axle, so the overall added weight only equals that of the object itself!).  Thus, you may find you've plated your van to 3,850Kg, but can only actually load it to 3,600Kg, because the rear axle becomes overloaded beyond this weight.

This needs knowledge of your proposed van, how and where you would load it, and what you'd propose taking.  If you don't yet know that, I think I'd be inclined to miss out on this one.

I think I'd try elsewhere for a 3,850Kg MTPLM van without any meddling!  Dont know which one you were after, but I found this http://tinyurl.com/28cvab at Becks.  It's a Delfin Performance 710 on a Master, which they say has an MTPLM of 3,850Kg.  I assume this is an enginered upgrade to the chassis and not just a re-plate.

Hope this helps.

[Mel B]

If the MIRO is greater than the brochure figure then I'm inclined to decline to proceed with the purchase, and risk losing my deposit. But, if replating to a higher MTPLM is possible through a paper exercise then this may solve the problem. Advice greatly appreciated.

 

Why would you risk loosing your deposit? They can't deliver the van you ordered in the timescale you were led to believe you would get it, that's not your fault. Why not insist that they get the replating done as part of the 'new' deal, lay it on really thick after all you're the one who's having to wait whilst they get a nice bit of interest on your money. If you don't try you don't win, then let everyone know the outcome please.

[Uncle Bulgaria]

Brian Kirby - 2007-06-20 6:54 PM

Not sure what SV Tech mean by a "paper exercise".  If they mean they can issue and attach new vehicle plates, with the documentation to modify your V5C registration document without further inspection of the vehicle, fine.  If they mean they'll just look at it and give you a piece of paper saying it's OK for 3,850Kg, I wouldn't pursue it further with them!

Do be aware that the manufacturer's original plate has built in tolerances, hence the sum of the two maximum axle loads exceeds the plated MTPLM.  In practice, once the actual laden weight gets much above the original MTPLM, it is very difficult to avoid overloading one, or other axle.  It is usually the rear axle that is under threat, but this depends on the layout of the van and especially the rear overhang.  Loads placed between the axles are distributed proportionately to their position.  However, loads placed outside the wheelbase, quite common with longer rear overhangs and spacious underbed "boots", place a higher load onto the rear axle than their self- weight (the difference is subtracted from the load on the front axle, so the overall added weight only equals that of the object itself!).  Thus, you may find you've plated your van to 3,850Kg, but can only actually load it to 3,600Kg, because the rear axle becomes overloaded beyond this weight.

This needs knowledge of your proposed van, how and where you would load it, and what you'd propose taking.  If you don't yet know that, I think I'd be inclined to miss out on this one.

I think I'd try elsewhere for a 3,850Kg MTPLM van without any meddling!  Dont know which one you were after, but I found this http://tinyurl.com/28cvab at Becks.  It's a Delfin Performance 710 on a Master, which they say has an MTPLM of 3,850Kg.  I assume this is an enginered upgrade to the chassis and not just a re-plate.

Hope this helps.

SvTech seem saying that they can isue a new plate and documentation to support modification of the V5 registration document, but I will check this out thoroghly before going along that route.The vehicle is the Sun TI 650MF. 6.86 Metre long with longitudinal fixed bed, bathroom along side , L-shaped kitchen and half-dinette and swivel cab lounge. Water tank in dinette seatbox, waste tank underfloor ahead of the rear axle. Underbed storage will hold loungers, table, odds and sods etc. No garage, so no scooter, no bikes. One of my objectives when I inspect the vehicle tomorrow is to find out how much load capacity there is available at the rear axle. I know that plating to 3850 Kg probably means in practice a lower figure will apply as the loading on either axle approches its pemitted maximum, but an extra 100 - 200 Kg will provide a more comfortable margin on payload.

[Uncle Bulgaria]

Mel B - 2007-06-20 8:22 PM

 

,

Why would you risk loosing your deposit? They can't deliver the van you ordered in the timescale you were led to believe you would get it, that's not your fault. Why not insist that they get the replating done as part of the 'new' deal, lay it on really thick after all you're the one who's having to wait whilst they get a nice bit of interest on your money. If you don't try you don't win, then let everyone know the outcome please.

 

Sorry if the original post confused. The original planned supplier of the Burstner is returning my deposit recognising that they can't deliver as contracted. The potential financial loss might be if I reject the Knaus (from another dealer than the Burstner, and which is sitting at the dealers) if the payload is so limited that its use as a motorhome based on its belted seating capacity is significantly compromised and risks regular overloading. The dealer might not be happy, but I'll press the dealer for my relatively small deposit and walk away rather than have a van that is going to be a pain to live with. If the MIRO is at or below the figure quoted in the Knaus spec sheet, it should be OK, but if it is 5% higher, the payload is down to only 231 Kg, which I think is an impractical figure. Keep you posted.

 

 

[colin]

I do wonder what will happen if the *** hits the fan with these uprated platings, Renault have a max weight of 3500kg for the Master they do not make a heavyer version, for this you have to buy a Mascot which is rear wheel drive, I bet if you have any mechanical problem and if Renault or whoever notice the replating they will wash there hands of it.

[Mel E]

I'm afraid Colin is absolutely correct. The maximum Renault specify for any model of Master is 3500Kgs - as Colin says, you have to go for the rear wheel drive Mascot to get a higher figure. If someone is replating it to 3850Kgs then they are exceeding Renault's design criteria and, in law, it is the manufacturer who specifies the Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM) of the vehicle.

 

However, I have repeatedly recommended SVTech in the past. They are basically saying that 3850 is within the sum of the two axle loadings so is OK. But there seem to me to be two problems with this:

 

1. The extra capacity has only limited value: the reason for the higher sum of axle weights is to provide some loading flexibility and you lose this as Brian points out. It is most unlikely you will be able to make use of the whole of the extra 350Kgs. You also reduce the maximum you can tow because the Train Weight does not change.

 

2. 3850 exceeds tha manufacturer's stated design limit. Renault has already been asked and refused absolutely to agree to anything above 3500Kgs.

 

The only way to increase MAM with Renault is to chop off the back and fit an Alko chassis which changes the MAM. The reason your original purchase is not available is that there is no 3850 Renault chassis as specified for the model.

 

Mel E

====

 

 

[Guest JudgeMental]

 

Well that’s it then - I would look elsewhere

 

My new Ford based EuraMobil high top is 3500kg. And 4 up & fully loaded to max behaves impeccably - and powers along.

 

loaded At 3500kg rear axle still has over 200kg capacity - so some may think room here for re plating.

 

BUT on recent trip back from France, overloaded with Mrs Mental's wine and champagne prescription. I did not like the handling up the M20 at all.

 

Don’t trust paper upgrades - buy the correct chassis for your needs

 

[Mike Chapman]

Mel E - 2007-06-21 12:15 PM

 

I'm afraid Colin is absolutely correct. The maximum Renault specify for any model of Master is 3500Kgs - as Colin says, you have to go for the rear wheel drive Mascot to get a higher figure. If someone is replating it to 3850Kgs then they are exceeding Renault's design criteria and, in law, it is the manufacturer who specifies the Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM) of the vehicle.

 

However, I have repeatedly recommended SVTech in the past. They are basically saying that 3850 is within the sum of the two axle loadings so is OK. But there seem to me to be two problems with this:

 

1. The extra capacity has only limited value: the reason for the higher sum of axle weights is to provide some loading flexibility and you lose this as Brian points out. It is most unlikely you will be able to make use of the whole of the extra 350Kgs. You also reduce the maximum you can tow because the Train Weight does not change.

 

2. 3850 exceeds tha manufacturer's stated design limit. Renault has already been asked and refused absolutely to agree to anything above 3500Kgs.

 

The only way to increase MAM with Renault is to chop off the back and fit an Alko chassis which changes the MAM. The reason your original purchase is not available is that there is no 3850 Renault chassis as specified for the model.

 

Mel E

====

 

 

Hello Mel,

 

As far as the Uncle Bulgaria original question relating to existing Renault Master based Motor Caravans at a maximum GVW of 3500 kgs, your statements above are absolutely correct. The Master Chassis Cab, Van or Platform Cab are rated at a maximum of 3500 kgs.

 

As a matter of technical interest there are two special build factory built Master base vehicles Ambulance and Mini-bus models where the GVW can be up to 3900 Kgs GVW. The 3900 version 16 seat mini-bus is in the Renault Master Technical Specification document. The Master Ambulance that I sometimes drive is FWD LWB 2.5 DCI 120 and plated at 3900 kgs.

 

Having spoken to a contact at Renault I have been informed that they are considering a model for Motor Caravan with a GVW up to 3900 kgs and this is not the Mascott RWD. I will follow this up with a Technical Manager to establish what is required to uprate the Master from 3500 to 3900. It may just be a suspension modification but could also include uprating of the brakes and transmission. It may of course be that SVtech have already been through this exercise and established the upgrade requirements.

 

The Delfin Performance has four models based on the ALKO chassis and rated at 3850 kg and 4500 kg. Are both of these models being dropped/superseded?

 

Regards,

 

Mike.

[Pilgrimphil]

We went through the weighbridge scenario with our ME ( almost same payload as MF I think) last year when we first took delivery.

 

We had half a tank of diesel, half fresh water, two bikes on the back; garage with beers etc. for a weekend and deck chairs etc.

 

The overall weight was 3220kg. Front axle reading was 1520; rear 1720.

 

The only thing missing was my partner, Kim, and she doesn't 280kg's!!

 

Hopefully any fears that you have about payload will be allayed by Lowdhams.

 

The Sun Ti is a great motorhome - yes, it's not cheap but the quality is "there". No rattles or bits falling off. I just need to be a bit more careful when driving it as I have some damaged fairings as a result of driving too close to a grass verge & backing over some tree roots, but that's another story!!

 

PilgrimPhil

 

 

[colin]

Mike Chapman - 2007-06-21 2:07 PM

 

Mel E - 2007-06-21 12:15 PM

 

I'm afraid Colin is absolutely correct. The maximum Renault specify for any model of Master is 3500Kgs - as Colin says, you have to go for the rear wheel drive Mascot to get a higher figure. If someone is replating it to 3850Kgs then they are exceeding Renault's design criteria and, in law, it is the manufacturer who specifies the Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM) of the vehicle.

 

However, I have repeatedly recommended SVTech in the past. They are basically saying that 3850 is within the sum of the two axle loadings so is OK. But there seem to me to be two problems with this:

 

1. The extra capacity has only limited value: the reason for the higher sum of axle weights is to provide some loading flexibility and you lose this as Brian points out. It is most unlikely you will be able to make use of the whole of the extra 350Kgs. You also reduce the maximum you can tow because the Train Weight does not change.

 

2. 3850 exceeds tha manufacturer's stated design limit. Renault has already been asked and refused absolutely to agree to anything above 3500Kgs.

 

The only way to increase MAM with Renault is to chop off the back and fit an Alko chassis which changes the MAM. The reason your original purchase is not available is that there is no 3850 Renault chassis as specified for the model.

 

Mel E

====

 

 

Hello Mel,

 

As far as the Uncle Bulgaria original question relating to existing Renault Master based Motor Caravans at a maximum GVW of 3500 kgs, your statements above are absolutely correct. The Master Chassis Cab, Van or Platform Cab are rated at a maximum of 3500 kgs.

 

As a matter of technical interest there are two special build factory built Master base vehicles Ambulance and Mini-bus models where the GVW can be up to 3900 Kgs GVW. The 3900 version 16 seat mini-bus is in the Renault Master Technical Specification document. The Master Ambulance that I sometimes drive is FWD LWB 2.5 DCI 120 and plated at 3900 kgs.

 

Having spoken to a contact at Renault I have been informed that they are considering a model for Motor Caravan with a GVW up to 3900 kgs and this is not the Mascott RWD. I will follow this up with a Technical Manager to establish what is required to uprate the Master from 3500 to 3900. It may just be a suspension modification but could also include uprating of the brakes and transmission. It may of course be that SVtech have already been through this exercise and established the upgrade requirements.

 

The Delfin Performance has four models based on the ALKO chassis and rated at 3850 kg and 4500 kg. Are both of these models being dropped/superseded?

 

Regards,

 

Mike.

In the case of panel vans there was a 3.9GVW 'paperwork upgrade' to standard van availible for Minibus's up to a year ago, they where withdrawn, but are to be replaced by two special models, once again only for minibus's for some reason, I don't know if they will be approved for motorhome use.

Be interesting to see if your abulance has other upgrades, I remember a health authority buying 'cheap' Canadian abulances only to find they where unsuitable for high speed use! They had to be speed limited until an expensive upgrade was completed.

[Mike Chapman]

Hello Colin,

 

The Renault Master ambulance is a DPV of the mini-bus type with rear wheelchair lift and access. To the best of my knowledge it is a standard Renault (Special Factory Build?) Master. I mostly drive voluntarily and normally use the Fiat Ducato DPV so seldom drive the Renault.

 

Will have a chat with the Ambulance Fleet Manager about the specification and let you know the result.

 

Regards,

 

Mike.

[Uncle Bulgaria]

Here is the latest as I continue the steep learning curve of motorhome payload.

 

The dealer put the vehicle (Knaus Sun TI 650 MF) on his loadcells. The vehicle was empty but with half a tank of diesel. The front axle weight was 1473 Kg and the rear axle weight was 1405 Kg, giving a total of 2878 Kg. Add in the mythical 75 Kg driver, and the other half tank of fuel, and it all comes to 2883 Kg, which is some 30 Kg more than the brochure figure, roughly 1% of the unladen weight. I even made the dealer show me the loadcell calibration certificate, and was pleased to see that they had been checked by Trading Standards Weights & Measure with the past 6 months. So the big worry of the vehicle being possibly up to 5% over the brochure weight is resolved. I have 517 Kg to cover all habitation equipment, people and effects which, whilst not enormous, should be more than enough for two people, so replating to a higher MAM is not required - even if it is possible.

 

For general information the plate figures for maximum axle loads is 1850 Kg front and 2060 Kg. From the loadcell figures, the maximum that can be added on each axle is 377 Kg front and 655Kg rear. Mel has kindly sent me his loading template and I have a floor plan for the vehicle so I can determine the distances of loads from the rear axle and work out the loading as I add people and equipment.

 

Can I thank everyone who has contributed to this thread and helped me work my way through the payload issue. I note comments from various members on whether it is possible to replate a Renault Master beyond 3500 Kg. Certainly, Dethleffs offer their Esprit RT vans (on the Renault Master) with a MAM at 3900 as standard, and Knaus offer some of the Sun Traveller and and Sport Traveller range at a MAM of 3850. Whether these chassis are "specials" or have uprated rear springs and shock absorbers I don't know, but it might be of interest to find out how it is done.

 

The next thing to do is to approach Michelin for advice on tyre pressures, and I'll find the contact through the threads on this topic that appear regularly.

 

The schedule is to pick the van up on 18 July. Only pity is its at the start of the school summer holidays, so traffic will be a nightmare.

 

Richard.

[Guest JudgeMental]

 

you should be fine with this...

 

better to manage within restrictions of 3500kg if possible - this should be relatively straightforward to achieve with two people.

 

 

here for a good time - not a long time

==========================

[Dave Newell]

Congratulations and well done Richard. If only all prospective motorhome buyers were as aware and could be bothered to check such details out the world would be a happier place.

 

D.

[Brian Kirby]

Richard

Just one point re the weights.  If you look in your brochure, you should see somewhere a statement about how these are arrived at.  There should be something approximating to a Mass in Running Order (MIRO) figure.  Assuming this is being quoted to EN 1646-2, that figure shuld be the weight of the vehicle with all standard tools, oils and coolant etc, plus driver at 75Kg, a full tank of fuel, full fresh water tank and full gas cylinders.  Water = 1Kg per litre, so that is easy enough to calculate.  If the gas locker takes 13Kg cylinders, these weigh around 28Kg each full, if made of steel. 

As you have weighed the van, you'll have to deduct these weights from your 517Kg payload, but I think your MIRO will be well into 5% over territory!  Also, is there an awning on the van yet?  Somewhere around 25Kg comes to mind, again to come off your payload if you want one and it isn't yet there.  I still think, personally, this is a bit of a borderline van for longer term use, though fine for 2/3 weeks at a time, but I wouldn't contemplate the chassis upgrade.  Hope this helps.

[david lloyd]

Congratulations on your purchase Richard - 18 July will soon come round!

 

As I said previously we manage quite well with the 3.5t chassis even with some 'extras' - awning, 2 x 11kg gaslow refillables, Caro satellite dish, towbar (knaus fitment) and 2nd leisure battery.

 

We have had trips in France of four weeks at a time and I wouldn't be afraid to plan a longer trip - although we don't take too much more for three months away.

 

Getting a new van is a great opportunity to review the things you do pack and remove things you always thought you might need - but never did. I have little doubt though that the ride and handling of your new Sun Ti will put a smile on your face and all thoughts of 'too little' payload will soon disappear.

 

Best regards, David