vr46 Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 Hi all, last year we purchased a 2015 Autosleepers Symbol from our local dealer, when I got home I had trouble getting water from the taps. Having had motorhomes and caravans for many years I was confident I knew how to prime the system. I called the dealer and arranged take the motorhome back so they could have a look. The very capable and helpful Technician informed me that the 'Symbol' was a particularly difficult motorhome to prime and after a lot of effort filling the water tank to capacity, opening and closing various taps, tinkering with valves and a host of other measures he finally got water running by repeatedly switching the pump on and off. We then went on holiday for a week and were still having problems, then we notice a water leak under the sink. On return I took the motorhome back to the dealers were a faulty tap was diagnosed. I asked the dealer if he would check out the System when he replaced the tap and if any problems found would he fix it, to which he agreed. On collection the tap was replaced and once again everything appeared ok. We then used the Van for day trips and a weekend away with mixed results, sometimes the water was ok sometimes difficult to get water out. Now after winter storage and lockdown we are now ready to use to van again, only we still have the same problem of difficulty getting the water out of the system. My Question is could the pump in the tank be faulty (sounds as if it is running, but is it pumping?) dealer was reluctant to look at this as it is as he says its very time consuming. Or am I missing something, any thoughts would be helpful, thanks Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevec176 Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 Sounds like a pump problem to me. Are you able to disconnect the pipe coming from the pump to see if any thing is coming out. Make sure yoh have a bucket handy tho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 VR46 The difficulty with trying to answer your enquiry is that it really requires intimate knowledge of the technical specification of a 2015 Auto-Sleepers Symbol to be able to attempt a realistic diagnosis. I would expect your motorhome’s fresh-water tank to be external and (from what you’ve said) it would appear that Auto-Sleepers chose to fit a ‘submersible’ water-pump housed inside the fresh-water tank. This is OK if the pump can be (relatively) easily accessed (say through a large hatch in the motorhome’s floor and then through a large hatch in the tank’s top, but if that’s not the case and any problem with the water-pump develops, rectification may well be challenging and time consuming. (I THINK there may be an access hatch in the underside of your Symbol’s water-tank, but even if there is, that doesn’t mean the pump could be reached.) It’s certainly possible that, even if the pump can be heard running (Are you 100% sure the pump is inside the fresh-water tank?) that is is not actually pumping water. As Steve has suggested, you should be able to test this by disconnecting inside your motorhome the water hose that must lead from the pump and then turning the pump on. That should confirm whether or not the pump can deliver water and, if so, at what flow-rate and pressure. If the pump proves to be OK, then the priming problem is elsewhere - perhaps your Symbol’s water system has a tendency to ‘air lock’, or there’s an optimum method of priming that needs to be established. (It does need saying that water systems that include a submersible pump can be trickier to prime than systems that have the pump outside the water tank.) You might also try asking about this on the Auto-Sleeper Motorhome Owners Forum (ASOF) https://www.autosleeper-ownersforum.com/ just in case it’s a known issue with Symbols (or other Auto-Sleeprs panel-van conversions) and there’s a ‘best method’ of priming. You’d need to register on the ASOF to post there, but that’s easy enough and, if you have Symbol-specific questions in future, that’s where you are most likely to obtain expert advice from other A-S owners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 It could be a duff pump, I had to change ours last year, but having the van for years knew it didn't sound right, something a new owner might not know. You are sure you have shut the Truma drain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vr46 Posted July 18, 2020 Author Share Posted July 18, 2020 Hi again, many thanks for the very helpful replies. I had made a previous attempt to test the pump by disconnecting the pipe from from the pump and had water squirt out. I have now connected a 10 mm Tube directly from the pump entry , this time no water. As suggested there is a distinct sound change When the pump is pushing water and when not delivering water. Also I am pretty confident that the pump is Housed within the tank, and from the information I received from the dealer it is a Labour intensive job, to replace. Probably why they did not want to pursue a new pump fit under warranty. I will keep trying the pump Over the next day or two because my guess is the pump will work again and so prove an intermittent fault. Next problem will be to convince the dealer that this fault has been a fault since purchase. Many thanks again, Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 This ASOF discussion may be of interest https://www.autosleeper-ownersforum.com/t8645-wheres-my-water-pump Just to repeat, you need to be absolutely certain about where your Symbol's water-pump is as - if it is not in the water-tank - it's a completely different ball-game. You'll note that the work-around eventually chosen on the ASOF forum was to install a pressure-sensitive pump within the motorhome itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vr46 Posted July 18, 2020 Author Share Posted July 18, 2020 Thanks Derek, I will check out the link you provided. Just an update after several attempts pump Started working again. I have now reconnected hoses back up and all working fine again. I suspect That the problem will return, so it's pump or something I have disconnected/reconnected. Thanks once again, Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vr46 Posted July 18, 2020 Author Share Posted July 18, 2020 Sorry Derek, for spelling your name wrong. (Already corrected - Keithl) PS And you can edit a post for 30 minutes after posting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 vr46 - 2020-07-18 1:44 PM Hi again, many thanks for the very helpful replies. I had made a previous attempt to test the pump by disconnecting the pipe from from the pump and had water squirt out. I have now connected a 10 mm Tube directly from the pump entry , this time no water. As suggested there is a distinct sound change When the pump is pushing water and when not delivering water. Also I am pretty confident that the pump is Housed within the tank, and from the information I received from the dealer it is a Labour intensive job, to replace. Probably why they did not want to pursue a new pump fit under warranty. I will keep trying the pump Over the next day or two because my guess is the pump will work again and so prove an intermittent fault. Next problem will be to convince the dealer that this fault has been a fault since purchase. Many thanks again, Keith. Coincidentally, all our vans have had submersible pumps. The only problems I have encountered were an air locking pump, and one on which the non-return valve had jammed. All vans had accessible, internal, fresh water tanks. The air locking problem was a bit hit and miss, in that it did not always arise, and was only a problem following the first fill before a trip, but was easily resolved by jiggling the pump around to release the air bubble. This was easy enough via an access trap on the top of the internal tank, albeit not always convenient! The non-return valve is intended to prevent water draining back from the water system into the fresh water tank when the taps are turned off. These are usually, but not always, incorporated into the submersible pumps themselves. If they jam open the water does what the valve is intended to prevent, and drains back into the tank, when the system has to be re-primed and purged at each use before a reliable water flow is gained. In the first case the pump could be heard running, but at higher pitch than when pumping water. In the second case the pump sounded normal, but mostly air emerged from the taps accompanied by a lot of spitting and spluttering. The problem with the air locking pump seems to have been that the pump was on an overly long tube in the tank, so that it sat at an angle in contact with the floor of the tank, instead of hanging vertically. That was cured by shortening the pump tube, after which all was well. The non-return valve problem required a replacement pump with a valve that worked properly. From your description, your problem sounds like an air-locked pump, possibly for the same reason as I discovered. Since investigation and resolution would, in your case, appear to require removal of the tank, and as installing a submersible pump in an inaccessible location is nuts, I think I'd look for a location where a fixed pump could be installed inside the van, leaving only a scavenge pipe into the tank. Ideally, I think I'd look for a pump with a built in non-return function, so that the only other potential cause of problems would also be accessible from within the van. I believe diaphragm pumps may provide this function as normal, but have no experience of these. You should then permanently eliminate all problems associated with maintainable parts an inaccessible underfloor tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vr46 Posted July 18, 2020 Author Share Posted July 18, 2020 Thanks Brian, very interesting and a lot of food for thought. Really impressed with the quality of the Feedback received and now feel like I am making good progress towards a solution. Thanks all. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-07-18 5:25 PM ... Ideally, I think I'd look for a pump with a built in non-return function, so that the only other potential cause of problems would also be accessible from within the van. I believe diaphragm pumps may provide this function as normal, but have no experience of these. You should then permanently eliminate all problems associated with maintainable parts an inaccessible underfloor tank. Usually a motorhome water system that has a diaphragm water-pump should not need a non-return valve (NRV) as the water-pump (even when not operating) will prevent water from flowing through it in a reverse direction. The general principles of a system with a SHURflo pump are shown in this elderly link http://autohomes.vwt4camper.info/SHURfloWaterPumpInstallationAndOperationManualT4WM.pdf However, although a diaphragm pump can raise water a significant height, if a motorhome has an external fresh-water tank and the distance between the water-pump located inside the motorhome and the water-pick-up in the tank is long, it may be worth adding a NRV to minimise any delay in water reaching the pump when the latter starts to run. The attached drawing indicates where a NRV might be positioned - though it should be completely unnecessary for the system shown there. This 2012 forum discussion https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Pipe-fittings/29351/ related to problems with a 2005 Auto-Sleepers Nuevo coachbuilt motorhome, and it eventually became evident that Auto-Sleepers had fitted a diaphragm water-pump and a NRV. All three of my motorhomes have had an inboard fresh-water tank and a SHURflo diaphragm water-pump, and none had a NRV as standard. When I rejigged my Rapido’s water-system in late-2018 to address a serious vibration problem, I inserted a NRV near the end of the new water-pick-up hose I had inserted into the Rapido’s fresh-water tank. As the water-pump is mounted on the tank’s top and the pick-up hose is quite short this was undoubtedly overkill, but as it was a simple task, cheap enough and might have some potential benefit, I decided I might as well do it. The ASOF link I provided above suggests that, even if the submersible pump can be reached through a hatch in the water tank's bottom, it may well not be practicable to replace the pump without the fresh-water tank being removed first. The link suggests that fitting a diaphragm pump inside the motorhome may be possible with the tank remaining in situ, but who knows in Keith’s Symbol’s case... (Just to add further complication, the ASOF link appears to suggest that Auto-Sleepers may also have used an arrangement comprising a submersible pump and a (presumably Whale-made) pressure-sensitive switch that sidesteps having taps with micro-switches.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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