Bailey Autograph v Auto Trail Frontier Scout

[Bullet]

Morning all, first time buyer and following up on a previous post but more specific so on a new thread.

 

We’re looking at the Bailey Autograph 81-6 but the missus has thrown a curve ball towards the Auto Trail Frontier Scout. Primarily based on space - although the length is the same the AT offers a larger over cab bed and doesn’t eat into the main cabin when used - we have younger kids so the argument is slightly relevant. You also lose the side ‘sofa’ but gain a little space in the bathrooms - again slightly more important to the other half.

 

Personally I don’t think it’s worth the extra £12k new - £13.5k is you upgrade the engine to the 160 BHP (bear in mind it’s a 4000kg van). It also makes it a bigger stretch financially, although the missus is the one who is still 95% there to getting a motorhome.

 

Anyone got any experience with either of the above - good or bad!

 

How much difference would the Fiat 140BHP vs the 160BHP make (if we went for the AT would £1.5k be worth upgrading) - accept in a camper (or indeed a car) you don’t need to be first away at the lights but equally don’t want it to feel overly sluggish or when it’s fully laden struggle should we go the the Alps etc?

 

Any idea of the MPG difference - I’m guessing the overcab bubble would knock off a good 5-10 MPG?

[buddy]

I believe that the Bailey is wider than the Autotrail (and others) in case that matters to you, also check actual payloads for both as it may be less with the larger engine and you need as much as possible with a family.

[Bop]

I would avoid Autotrail at all costs. Lots of newbies buy them because they are great looking vans but behind the scenes they often suffer from huge quality and water ingress problems.

 

Autotrail is the only brand with its own 'Unhappy Owners Club' which speaks volumes for its poor construction quality.

 

We'll undoubtedly get some come along soon who say "well, we've had no problems with ours" but tell that to the many hundreds of Autotrail owners who have had damp and/or huge numbers of serious problems.

 

I would love another Autotrail because they look great and have practical interiors but I will not take the risk with my hard earned cash!

 

[Ninian]

Hi, I totally agree with BOP, my last Autotrail was a far superior built van than my current one, I've had all sorts of problems with various things. I feel now that the workmanship has gone downhill badly. They advertise that they go through a rigorous final check before leaving the factory, but they must be wearing dark glasses when they can't see the faults.

 

Steer clear as has been said. I definitely wouldn't buy another one.

[Derek Uzzell]

Bullet - 2020-08-14 10:05 AM

 

...How much difference would the Fiat 140BHP vs the 160BHP make (if we went for the AT would £1.5k be worth upgrading) - accept in a camper (or indeed a car) you don’t need to be first away at the lights but equally don’t want it to feel overly sluggish or when it’s fully laden struggle should we go the the Alps etc?

 

Any idea of the MPG difference - I’m guessing the overcab bubble would knock off a good 5-10 MPG?

 

For the size and weight of motorhome you are considering, you’d be ill-advised to opt for a low output powerplant. The Bailey Autograph has Peugeot's 2.0litre 165bhp motor as standard and the Auto-Trail Frontier Scout has Fiat’s 2.3litre 160bhp motor as an option. It’s likely that the Peugeot motor will weigh more than the Fiat one, but probably not enough to matter. If you opted for the Scout’s standard 140, you’d undoubtedly regret it.

 

(A dozen or so years ago Auto-Trail marketed some of their large tandem-axle models with Fiat’s 2.3litre 130bhp motor as standard - it was a hare-brained policy clearly intended to bring the advertised base-price down and the vehicles were horribly sluggish to drive. The standard specification was soon upgraded to include Fiat’s 3.0litre engine, which is what those models had always needed.)

 

For a motorhome with this size/weight, you should expect an average fuel mpg consumption in the very low-20s. Motorhome aerodynamics are a joke and, although it might be anticipated that a ‘hi-line’ Frontier Scout should be less economical fuel-wise than a Bailey Autograph 81-6, it’s more realistic just to view the 81-6’s consumption as “high” and the Scount’s as “higher still”. If fuel-consumption REALLY concerns you, you should revisit your intention to buy motorhomes like these.

[Sydney1]

I had an AT Scout for 6 years from new in 2013.

 

Loved the look and layout. With 3 of us and a dog we never got anywhere near filling it up.Inside the quality of the fixtures and fittings was good. It's very easy to see why people are attracted to them.We had the 150bhp? engine and would not have wanted less power.We got low 20's often doing 70-75mph. It improved to mid 20's if you dropped to 60mph.

 

However, every year of ownership we had water ingress issues and the last time, it was so bad it had to go back to AT themselves for over 2 months to be stripped down .Ended up losing confidence in the vehicle and the brand which it a shame as it was such an aspirational brand.

 

To be fair, both the dealer and AT undertook all repairs without quibble but I'm aware many others have not been so fortunate.

I wouldn't buy another one with so much choice

[Brian Kirby]

If you really want a lot of space, and are not overly concerned at the physical size of the van, but are concerned about quality and reliability, I think you need to start looking at vans on heavier bases, up to 7.5 tonnes. Some use IVECO, some MAN, some Mercedes, platforms. Vans at the heavier ends of their ranges by the likes of Concorde, Neismann+Bischoff, RS, and maybe Carthago, Le Voyageur, Hymer, Burstner, Dethleffs, and Laika.

 

If the budget doesn't match the van, look at used versions. Most seem to be well cared for and maintained by their owners, at least when new, as the expense is not such a significant factor at that level. Fuel consumption will of course rise accordingly.

 

The price will increase accordingly, but as a generalisation, so will the quality.

 

Those you are looking at are mainly middle market front wheel drive vans, with bolted on stretched third party chassis, which are running at the upper limits of their engineering tolerances. Either of the ones you have selected would, in my opinion, benefit from the 180PS engine if you might contemplate crossing the Alps or Pyrenees. Just driving up a mountain pass is so much easier than rowing a vehicle up on its gearbox! :-)

 

Broadly, you get what you pay for. One van is very similar to the next, in terms of its materials costs. The equipment installed all tends to come from the same small group of manufacturers, so there will be little difference between a Bloggs toilet and a Jones toilet, when only Bloggs and Jones make toilets. Ditto fridges, cookers, batteries, electrics, heaters, etc. etc. The base platforms are generally very similar, give or take a manufacturer's optional gizmo here of there.

 

They are all styled internally to appeal to varying markets, but will all look $1,000,000 dollars because that is what sells them.

 

The price differences from one to the next come from the market sector the converter is aiming at, the efficiency of their operation, and the profit the manufacturer (or their backer/owner) and the dealer seeks. Where the quality (not to be confused with surface gloss!) goes is out of sight under the skin, and is only revealed with time.

 

Nearly all the manufacturers end up in "groups", sometimes venture capital owned, but the market dictates the price that can be demanded. "Entry level" models are usually stripped down versions of mid range models, which in turn are stripped down version of top of the range models. Often all will be produced by the same group but under differing brand names. If two vans are sold as "Hymers" but at widely differing prices, people wonder why one "Hymer" can be cheaper than the other. So the cheaper one is branded, for example, as Sunlight, to avoid the direct comparison - and to guard the respected name from reputational damage should the cost cutting be found to have gone too far!

 

If it's cheap, something (probably quite a few things) will have suffered to put price as the highest priority, but if its expensive, either quality or profit will have become the highest priority for the group manufacturer. So, if you want real, in depth, quality - albeit at a price - you have to move out of the overcrowded mass market. That is the reason I suggest the above brands as alternatives for comparison. You don't need to buy one, but careful inspection should be educational. I also happen to think that the old adage of "buy in haste and repent at leisure" is especially true with motorhomes! Just an opinion - of course. :-D

[Derek Uzzell]

Brian Kirby - 2020-08-14 1:39 PM

 

...Those you are looking at are mainly middle market front wheel drive vans, with bolted on stretched third party chassis, which are running at the upper limits of their engineering tolerances. Either of the ones you have selected would, in my opinion, benefit from the 180PS engine if you might contemplate crossing the Alps or Pyrenees. Just driving up a mountain pass is so much easier than rowing a vehicle up on its gearbox! :-) ...

 

I believe that Bailey’s website wrongly defines an Autograph 81-6 model as having a powerplanr with a capacity of 1997cc and 165bhp. The power output is correct, but the motor’s capacity was increased to 2.2litres in mid-2019.

 

https://www.parkers.co.uk/vans-pickups/news/2019/peugeot-boxer-update/

 

165bhp is the maximum available output for a current Peugeot Boxer motor, whereas the maximum output of a Ducato’s 2.3litre motor is 180bhp (at an eye-watering extra charge).

 

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Derek Uzzell - 2020-08-14 2:21 PM

………………………...

I believe that Bailey’s website wrongly defines an Autograph 81-6 model as having a powerplanr with a capacity of 1997cc and 165bhp. The power output is correct, but the motor’s capacity was increased to 2.2litres in mid-2019.

 

https://www.parkers.co.uk/vans-pickups/news/2019/peugeot-boxer-update/

 

165bhp is the maximum available output for a current Peugeot Boxer motor, whereas the maximum output of a Ducato’s 2.3litre motor is 180bhp (at an eye-watering extra charge).

Yes, apologies, I forgot the Bailey is on the Boxer. It'll just have to be the 165 then! :-D

[arthur49]

Bullet - 2020-08-14 10:05 AM

 

Any idea of the MPG difference - I’m guessing the overcab bubble would knock off a good 5-10 MPG?

 

Big mohos tend to have the aerodynamics of a house brick. And mpg will be poor - low 20s or under

[Solwaybuggier]

A couple of thoughts - OP has younger kids. So is presumably at the younger end of the membership of this forum? If so do he and his wife have licences to drive a van over 3500 kg ?

And as much as I agree with the comments about Autotrail quality (we had a 52 plate AT Cheyenne, so probably at a time when standards were better - still had issues with it) our experience of Bailey quality was far worse. A new 13 plate Autograph had major damp issues, went back to the factory - we made sure to trade it in before the water ingress warranty expired.

 

I would agree with Brian Kirby’s suggestion it might be worth looking as well at used vans from more expensive makes. We traded the Bailey in for a used Carthago (not A class) and the difference in quality is evident. But it may be the typical floor plans aren’t what the OP is looking for?

[longtemps]

I have had 3 brand new Autotrail’s, each one worse than the last. I lived in hope that I would be third time lucky. More fool me. When my latest purchase from them (plated 18), had damp reported under the driver side bench area at the first habitation service and then water dripping through a skylight, two months later, I decided enough was enough and ordered foreign at the NEC last year. So I advise you to avoid Autotrail, what I have related is but a tiny fraction of the troubles I have had!

As to Bailey my principal concern with this brand would be the width. You mention in your post, going to the Alps. I have travelled Europe for 20 years or so. Many, many towns and villages have narrow, medieval streets where an extra few inches either side, is crucial. Also you will find that many Aires that have marked out pitches are quite narrow and indeed short, so length also should be considered, if you intend staying off the grid of normal campsites.

On the bright side, if you are new to motorhoming you will love it. Over the year’s the adventures you will have will live with you forever. But, do go into it with your eye’s open. It is not hassle free, it is expensive and it is frustrating at time, but it is great to do.

Ps: Regarding engines. So far I have found the new Fiat Euro 6, 140bhp engine very good with plenty of power and pull, even with less than a thousand on the clock. The Euro 5, 150bhp I had on my last van, felt very sluggish in comparison.

[arthur49]

longtemps - 2020-08-15 10:22 AM

 

I have had 3 brand new Autotrail’s, each one worse than the last..

 

Our experience not as bad as yours but in Feb 2018 we bought a new Autotrail PVC. We traded it in 6 months later as we were fed up of the dreadful build quality the worst fault being detaching push fit plumbing joints. Came back once to find 60 litres of water on the floor as joint had split and pump ran until tank emptied. Which is why we nicknamed ours Aquatrail.

 

It was without doubt by far the worst build quality van we've had. So I would advise against Autotrail

 

This thread was our worst water leak experience https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Push-Fit-Connector-12mm-piping-temp-repair-/49131/