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teflon2

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Evidence seems to be showing that the French makers of Celotex Rs 5000 used in the cladding ot Grenfelll tower deliberately altered the test panels in order to gain certification for high rise buildings. More information is on the Grenfell inquiry website look at what we learned today to see the level they were willing to go to to obtain the contract for Grenfell Tower.
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From Grenfell to PPE, absolute power still corrupts in high places

 

A cladding manufacturer allegedly fakes results to win a contract for material it knows is a deathtrap. The government sets up a system to reward companies with whom ministers have links. Almost 90% of Windrush victims making compensation claims have yet to receive payment, while the home secretary responsible for that scheme is found guilty of bullying.

 

Just another week in 2020 Britain. And, this being 2020 Britain, the people facing the consequences of abuse of power, malfeasance and incompetence are not those responsible but those who suffer.

 

Last Monday, the inquiry into the Grenfell Tower fire heard how, after its cladding had failed the first safety test, the manufacturer, Celotex, simply set up a second test, apparently rigged the results and won the contract to wrap the block with flammable cladding. It was an astonishing revelation, but barely reported in the press.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/nov/22/from-grenfell-to-ppe-absolute-power-still-corrupts-in-high-places

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Bulletguy - 2020-11-22 5:39 PM

 

 

From Grenfell to PPE, absolute power still corrupts in high places

 

A cladding manufacturer allegedly fakes results to win a contract for material it knows is a deathtrap. The government sets up a system to reward companies with whom ministers have links. Almost 90% of Windrush victims making compensation claims have yet to receive payment, while the home secretary responsible for that scheme is found guilty of bullying.

 

Just another week in 2020 Britain. And, this being 2020 Britain, the people facing the consequences of abuse of power, malfeasance and incompetence are not those responsible but those who suffer.

 

Last Monday, the inquiry into the Grenfell Tower fire heard how, after its cladding had failed the first safety test, the manufacturer, Celotex, simply set up a second test, apparently rigged the results and won the contract to wrap the block with flammable cladding. It was an astonishing revelation, but barely reported in the press.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/nov/22/from-grenfell-to-ppe-absolute-power-still-corrupts-in-high-places

 

 

 

Perhaps you Guardian reporter should read the EU procurement rules.

 

The EU procurement rules requires public bodies to open up higher value contract opportunities to bids across the EU for fair and transparent competition to select the winning bid.

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teflon2 - 2020-11-22 6:05 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2020-11-22 5:39 PM

 

 

From Grenfell to PPE, absolute power still corrupts in high places

 

A cladding manufacturer allegedly fakes results to win a contract for material it knows is a deathtrap. The government sets up a system to reward companies with whom ministers have links. Almost 90% of Windrush victims making compensation claims have yet to receive payment, while the home secretary responsible for that scheme is found guilty of bullying.

 

Just another week in 2020 Britain. And, this being 2020 Britain, the people facing the consequences of abuse of power, malfeasance and incompetence are not those responsible but those who suffer.

 

Last Monday, the inquiry into the Grenfell Tower fire heard how, after its cladding had failed the first safety test, the manufacturer, Celotex, simply set up a second test, apparently rigged the results and won the contract to wrap the block with flammable cladding. It was an astonishing revelation, but barely reported in the press.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/nov/22/from-grenfell-to-ppe-absolute-power-still-corrupts-in-high-places

Perhaps you Guardian reporter should read the EU procurement rules.

 

The EU procurement rules requires public bodies to open up higher value contract opportunities to bids across the EU for fair and transparent competition to select the winning bid.

Since when have EU rules bothered us? We've always ignored those we don't like. :-|

 

However the information about the company rigging the fire test results has come from one of their former production managers which if found to be proven, is a very serious offence. It's a shame he didn't have the courage to speak out at the time he first knew though as he explains here he was young and in his first job so obviously inexperienced.

 

Inquiry lead counsel Richard Millett QC asked Roper whether Celotex’s behaviour in seeking to manipulate the BRE test had struck him as dishonest. “Yes, it did,” he replied.

 

Asked by Millett why he had gone along with the deception, Roper replied: “I went along with a lot of actions at Celotex that, looking back on reflection, were completely unethical and one that I probably potentially didn’t consider the impact of at the time.”

 

He added: “I was 22-23, first job, I thought this was standard practice although it did sit very uncomfortably with me.”

 

Roper said Celotex had keen to exploit market-ignorance and had its eyes on revenue worth £10m to rival insulation firm Kingspan.

 

https://outline.com/FBzLct

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teflon2 - 2020-11-22 5:15 PM

 

Evidence seems to be showing that the French makers of Celotex Rs 5000 used in the cladding ot Grenfelll tower deliberately altered the test panels in order to gain certification for high rise buildings. More information is on the Grenfell inquiry website look at what we learned today to see the level they were willing to go to to obtain the contract for Grenfell Tower.

 

Ooooh ... Thats not what the haters wanted to hear ... Awful ... For them

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Birdbrain - 2020-11-22 7:32 PM

 

teflon2 - 2020-11-22 5:15 PM

 

Evidence seems to be showing that the French makers of Celotex Rs 5000 used in the cladding ot Grenfelll tower deliberately altered the test panels in order to gain certification for high rise buildings. More information is on the Grenfell inquiry website look at what we learned today to see the level they were willing to go to to obtain the contract for Grenfell Tower.

 

Ooooh ... Thats not what the haters wanted to hear ... Awful ... For them

 

I wonder if Bullet Liar and Co will start slagging the French off? ;-) ..........

 

Fancy a bet? :D ..........

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pelmetman - 2020-11-23 8:33 AM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-11-22 7:32 PM

 

teflon2 - 2020-11-22 5:15 PM

 

Evidence seems to be showing that the French makers of Celotex Rs 5000 used in the cladding ot Grenfelll tower deliberately altered the test panels in order to gain certification for high rise buildings. More information is on the Grenfell inquiry website look at what we learned today to see the level they were willing to go to to obtain the contract for Grenfell Tower.

 

Ooooh ... Thats not what the haters wanted to hear ... Awful ... For them

 

I wonder if Bullet Liar and Co will start slagging the French off? ;-) ..........

 

Fancy a bet? :D ..........

 

The certificate for the cladding was signed off 4 years before the brittish firm Celotex was taken over by a french company.

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colin - 2020-11-23 9:57 AM

 

pelmetman - 2020-11-23 8:33 AM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-11-22 7:32 PM

 

teflon2 - 2020-11-22 5:15 PM

 

Evidence seems to be showing that the French makers of Celotex Rs 5000 used in the cladding ot Grenfelll tower deliberately altered the test panels in order to gain certification for high rise buildings. More information is on the Grenfell inquiry website look at what we learned today to see the level they were willing to go to to obtain the contract for Grenfell Tower.

 

Ooooh ... Thats not what the haters wanted to hear ... Awful ... For them

 

I wonder if Bullet Liar and Co will start slagging the French off? ;-) ..........

 

Fancy a bet? :D ..........

 

The certificate for the cladding was signed off 4 years before the brittish firm Celotex was taken over by a french company.

 

So it's those brittish folk who are guilty ;-) ........

 

Not Boris or the Tories B-) .......

 

 

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pelmetman - 2020-11-23 3:10 PM

 

colin - 2020-11-23 9:57 AM

 

pelmetman - 2020-11-23 8:33 AM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-11-22 7:32 PM

 

teflon2 - 2020-11-22 5:15 PM

 

Evidence seems to be showing that the French makers of Celotex Rs 5000 used in the cladding ot Grenfelll tower deliberately altered the test panels in order to gain certification for high rise buildings. More information is on the Grenfell inquiry website look at what we learned today to see the level they were willing to go to to obtain the contract for Grenfell Tower.

 

Ooooh ... Thats not what the haters wanted to hear ... Awful ... For them

 

I wonder if Bullet Liar and Co will start slagging the French off? ;-) ..........

 

Fancy a bet? :D ..........

 

The certificate for the cladding was signed off 4 years before the brittish firm Celotex was taken over by a french company.

 

So it's those brittish folk who are guilty ;-) ........

 

Not Boris or the Tories B-) .......

Bit hypocritical when you readily accuse others that mention the Tory council, gov, MP's or PM's of 'weaponising' Grenfell, yet here you are doing exactly that. *-)

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Bulletguy - 2020-11-23 4:30 PM

 

pelmetman - 2020-11-23 3:10 PM

 

colin - 2020-11-23 9:57 AM

 

pelmetman - 2020-11-23 8:33 AM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-11-22 7:32 PM

 

teflon2 - 2020-11-22 5:15 PM

 

Evidence seems to be showing that the French makers of Celotex Rs 5000 used in the cladding ot Grenfelll tower deliberately altered the test panels in order to gain certification for high rise buildings. More information is on the Grenfell inquiry website look at what we learned today to see the level they were willing to go to to obtain the contract for Grenfell Tower.

 

Ooooh ... Thats not what the haters wanted to hear ... Awful ... For them

 

I wonder if Bullet Liar and Co will start slagging the French off? ;-) ..........

 

Fancy a bet? :D ..........

 

The certificate for the cladding was signed off 4 years before the brittish firm Celotex was taken over by a french company.

 

So it's those brittish folk who are guilty ;-) ........

 

Not Boris or the Tories B-) .......

Bit hypocritical when you readily accuse others that mention the Tory council, gov, MP's or PM's of 'weaponising' Grenfell, yet here you are doing exactly that. *-)

 

Did you not weaponise Grenfell? *-) .......

 

Just as you have the Chinky Flu? :-| ......

 

You Losers really are the most contemptible bunch of W*nkers (lol) (lol) (lol) ........

 

 

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colin - 2020-11-23 5:00 PM

 

pelmetman - 2020-11-23 3:10 PM

 

 

So it's those brittish folk who are guilty ;-) ........

 

Not Boris or the Tories B-) .......

 

 

The Tory led council have already admitted to a string of failures which contributed to the fire.

 

Seems to me they didn't have much choice given our current Hate a Tory climate *-) ......

 

In my view the worst culprit is "Elf & Safety" in our emergency services that caused the most deaths :-| .......

 

 

 

 

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pelmetman - 2020-11-23 5:00 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2020-11-23 4:30 PM

 

pelmetman - 2020-11-23 3:10 PM

 

colin - 2020-11-23 9:57 AM

 

pelmetman - 2020-11-23 8:33 AM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-11-22 7:32 PM

 

teflon2 - 2020-11-22 5:15 PM

 

Evidence seems to be showing that the French makers of Celotex Rs 5000 used in the cladding ot Grenfelll tower deliberately altered the test panels in order to gain certification for high rise buildings. More information is on the Grenfell inquiry website look at what we learned today to see the level they were willing to go to to obtain the contract for Grenfell Tower.

 

Ooooh ... Thats not what the haters wanted to hear ... Awful ... For them

 

I wonder if Bullet Liar and Co will start slagging the French off? ;-) ..........

 

Fancy a bet? :D ..........

 

The certificate for the cladding was signed off 4 years before the brittish firm Celotex was taken over by a french company.

 

So it's those brittish folk who are guilty ;-) ........

 

Not Boris or the Tories B-) .......

Bit hypocritical when you readily accuse others that mention the Tory council, gov, MP's or PM's of 'weaponising' Grenfell, yet here you are doing exactly that. *-)

 

Did you not weaponise Grenfell? *-) .......

No.....it's what you accused others of doing purely because they stated irrefutable fact that the council is Tory. And please don't start your usual disrupting bringing Covid into it as thats discussed in other threads relating to that matter.

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pelmetman - 2020-11-23 5:06 PM

 

Seems to me they didn't have much choice given our current Hate a Tory climate *-) ......

 

In my view the worst culprit is "Elf & Safety" in our emergency services that caused the most deaths :-| .......

 

 

The fire service had no idea a bunch of numpties in the council had allowed a corrupt private company to turn a safe building into a death trap. Not long after, we had a fire in a multi story building near me, no deaths, the standard fire response worked fine and the fire was contained within one flat.

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Bulletguy - 2020-11-23 5:11 PM

 

pelmetman - 2020-11-23 5:00 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2020-11-23 4:30 PM

 

pelmetman - 2020-11-23 3:10 PM

 

colin - 2020-11-23 9:57 AM

 

pelmetman - 2020-11-23 8:33 AM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-11-22 7:32 PM

 

teflon2 - 2020-11-22 5:15 PM

 

Evidence seems to be showing that the French makers of Celotex Rs 5000 used in the cladding ot Grenfelll tower deliberately altered the test panels in order to gain certification for high rise buildings. More information is on the Grenfell inquiry website look at what we learned today to see the level they were willing to go to to obtain the contract for Grenfell Tower.

 

Ooooh ... Thats not what the haters wanted to hear ... Awful ... For them

 

I wonder if Bullet Liar and Co will start slagging the French off? ;-) ..........

 

Fancy a bet? :D ..........

 

The certificate for the cladding was signed off 4 years before the brittish firm Celotex was taken over by a french company.

 

So it's those brittish folk who are guilty ;-) ........

 

Not Boris or the Tories B-) .......

Bit hypocritical when you readily accuse others that mention the Tory council, gov, MP's or PM's of 'weaponising' Grenfell, yet here you are doing exactly that. *-)

 

Did you not weaponise Grenfell? *-) .......

No.....it's what you accused others of doing purely because they stated irrefutable fact that the council is Tory. And please don't start your usual disrupting bringing Covid into it as thats discussed in other threads relating to that matter.

 

More Bullet Lies *-) ......

 

1........Did the Tory council make the cladding?......

 

2........Did the Tory council tell the contractors to use it?...

 

3........Did the Tory council tell the fire brigade to tell folk to stay inside a burning building? 8-) ......

 

 

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pelmetman - 2020-11-23 5:22 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2020-11-23 5:11 PM

 

pelmetman - 2020-11-23 5:00 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2020-11-23 4:30 PM

 

pelmetman - 2020-11-23 3:10 PM

 

colin - 2020-11-23 9:57 AM

 

pelmetman - 2020-11-23 8:33 AM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-11-22 7:32 PM

 

teflon2 - 2020-11-22 5:15 PM

 

Evidence seems to be showing that the French makers of Celotex Rs 5000 used in the cladding ot Grenfelll tower deliberately altered the test panels in order to gain certification for high rise buildings. More information is on the Grenfell inquiry website look at what we learned today to see the level they were willing to go to to obtain the contract for Grenfell Tower.

 

Ooooh ... Thats not what the haters wanted to hear ... Awful ... For them

 

I wonder if Bullet Liar and Co will start slagging the French off? ;-) ..........

 

Fancy a bet? :D ..........

 

The certificate for the cladding was signed off 4 years before the brittish firm Celotex was taken over by a french company.

 

So it's those brittish folk who are guilty ;-) ........

 

Not Boris or the Tories B-) .......

Bit hypocritical when you readily accuse others that mention the Tory council, gov, MP's or PM's of 'weaponising' Grenfell, yet here you are doing exactly that. *-)

 

Did you not weaponise Grenfell? *-) .......

No.....it's what you accused others of doing purely because they stated irrefutable fact that the council is Tory. And please don't start your usual disrupting bringing Covid into it as thats discussed in other threads relating to that matter.

 

More Bullet Lies *-) ......

 

1........Did the Tory council make the cladding?......

 

2........Did the Tory council tell the contractors to use it?...

 

3........Did the Tory council tell the fire brigade to tell folk to stay inside a burning building? 8-) ......

1) Please show my post where I said they did. Post it up please.

2) It would need to be approved by them.

3) Read the testimony Cotton gave to the inquiry.

 

You're getting all worked up into a frenzy and need to wind your neck back in. 72 people died in this horrific fire yet you're more concerned about your precious Tory party and government.

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Bulletguy - 2020-11-23 6:00 PM

 

pelmetman - 2020-11-23 5:22 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2020-11-23 5:11 PM

 

pelmetman - 2020-11-23 5:00 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2020-11-23 4:30 PM

 

pelmetman - 2020-11-23 3:10 PM

 

colin - 2020-11-23 9:57 AM

 

pelmetman - 2020-11-23 8:33 AM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-11-22 7:32 PM

 

teflon2 - 2020-11-22 5:15 PM

 

Evidence seems to be showing that the French makers of Celotex Rs 5000 used in the cladding ot Grenfelll tower deliberately altered the test panels in order to gain certification for high rise buildings. More information is on the Grenfell inquiry website look at what we learned today to see the level they were willing to go to to obtain the contract for Grenfell Tower.

 

Ooooh ... Thats not what the haters wanted to hear ... Awful ... For them

 

I wonder if Bullet Liar and Co will start slagging the French off? ;-) ..........

 

Fancy a bet? :D ..........

 

The certificate for the cladding was signed off 4 years before the brittish firm Celotex was taken over by a french company.

 

So it's those brittish folk who are guilty ;-) ........

 

Not Boris or the Tories B-) .......

Bit hypocritical when you readily accuse others that mention the Tory council, gov, MP's or PM's of 'weaponising' Grenfell, yet here you are doing exactly that. *-)

 

Did you not weaponise Grenfell? *-) .......

No.....it's what you accused others of doing purely because they stated irrefutable fact that the council is Tory. And please don't start your usual disrupting bringing Covid into it as thats discussed in other threads relating to that matter.

 

More Bullet Lies *-) ......

 

1........Did the Tory council make the cladding?......

 

2........Did the Tory council tell the contractors to use it?...

 

3........Did the Tory council tell the fire brigade to tell folk to stay inside a burning building? 8-) ......

1) Please show my post where I said they did. Post it up please.

2) It would need to be approved by them.

3) Read the testimony Cotton gave to the inquiry.

 

You're getting all worked up into a frenzy and need to wind your neck back in. 72 people died in this horrific fire yet you're more concerned about your precious Tory party and government.

 

I'm not the NASTY bloke who has spent years trying to blame the Tories ;-) ......

 

Do yourself a favour and buy a mirror .....HATER (lol) (lol) (lol) ........

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colin - 2020-11-23 9:57 AM

 

pelmetman - 2020-11-23 8:33 AM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-11-22 7:32 PM

 

teflon2 - 2020-11-22 5:15 PM

 

Evidence seems to be showing that the French makers of Celotex Rs 5000 used in the cladding ot Grenfelll tower deliberately altered the test panels in order to gain certification for high rise buildings. More information is on the Grenfell inquiry website look at what we learned today to see the level they were willing to go to to obtain the contract for Grenfell Tower.

 

Ooooh ... Thats not what the haters wanted to hear ... Awful ... For them

 

I wonder if Bullet Liar and Co will start slagging the French off? ;-) ..........

 

Fancy a bet? :D ..........

 

The certificate for the cladding was signed off 4 years before the brittish firm Celotex was taken over by a french company.

 

 

 

Not according to my information . 2012 the Saint Gorban group obtained celotex, cladding signed off 2016.

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teflon2 - 2020-11-23 6:24 PM

 

colin - 2020-11-23 9:57 AM

 

pelmetman - 2020-11-23 8:33 AM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-11-22 7:32 PM

 

teflon2 - 2020-11-22 5:15 PM

 

Evidence seems to be showing that the French makers of Celotex Rs 5000 used in the cladding ot Grenfelll tower deliberately altered the test panels in order to gain certification for high rise buildings. More information is on the Grenfell inquiry website look at what we learned today to see the level they were willing to go to to obtain the contract for Grenfell Tower.

 

Ooooh ... Thats not what the haters wanted to hear ... Awful ... For them

 

I wonder if Bullet Liar and Co will start slagging the French off? ;-) ..........

 

Fancy a bet? :D ..........

 

The certificate for the cladding was signed off 4 years before the brittish firm Celotex was taken over by a french company.

 

 

 

Not according to my information . 2012 the Saint Gorban group obtained celotex, cladding signed off 2016.

 

Ooops.......Due diligence is a bitch ;-) ......

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colin - 2020-11-23 5:20 PM

pelmetman - 2020-11-23 5:06 PM

Seems to me they didn't have much choice given our current Hate a Tory climate *-) ......

In my view the worst culprit is "Elf & Safety" in our emergency services that caused the most deaths :-| .......

The fire service had no idea a bunch of numpties in the council had allowed a corrupt private company to turn a safe building into a death trap. Not long after, we had a fire in a multi story building near me, no deaths, the standard fire response worked fine and the fire was contained within one flat.

But..................... I have a suspicion young Mr Roper may have spoken out of turn, and may have his knickers in a but of a twist. I'm not convinced he has understood what was done. I have a copy of a technical Compliance Guide published by Celotex in 2015, specifically dealing with the use of Celotex RS5000 in buildings exceeding 18 metres in height. It illustrates exactly the way in which flammable cladding can promote external fire spread in tall buildings, and illustrates the form of construction used for the fire test. The test rig was assembled under supervision at the BRE (ex Building Research Establishment) fire test site (ex Fire Research Station). The description of the product test includes the following:

 

"Celotex RS5000

 

Celotex RS5000 is a premium performance solution and is the first PIR board to successfully test to BS 8414-2:2005 for

rainscreen cladding systems meeting the performance criteria set out in BR 135.

 

The system tested was as follows:

? 12mm Fibre Cement Panels

? Supporting aluminium brackets and vertical rails

? 100mm Celotex RS5000

? 12mm Non-combustible sheathing board

? 100mm SFS System

? 2 x 12.5mm plasterboard

 

Fire stopping was provided by ventilated horizontal fire breaks positioned at each floor slab edge and above the hearth opening. Vertical non-ventilated fire breaks were provided at the edges of both the main face and the return wing and around the hearth opening.

 

The fire performance and classification report issued only relates to the components detailed and constructed in figure 4. Any changes to the components listed and construction method set out in figure 4 will need to be considered by the building designer.

 

Ventilated fire barriers comprised of stonewool insulation with Class O aluminium foil facings and a

continuous bonded intumescent strip. Non-ventilated fire barriers comprised of stonewool insulation

with Class O aluminium foil facings specifically intended to fully fill the void."

 

My bold and italics above.

 

The attached .jpg picture was taken from this guide. There is no secrecy regarding the inclusion of the magnesium oxide board in the test rig. The above waring in bold regarding the validity of the test and its reliance on cladding as installed following exactly the construction of the test rig is quite clear. The clear implication is that if the "designer" wishes to substitute alternative materials for those used by Celotex in their test, a new test must be carried out to verify performance of the new materials. It is abundantly clear this was not done. Usually any such claims to fire resistance/incombustibility would be examined during the Building Regulations Procedure. On present evidence, no-one seems to have been responsible for giving that approval. There is still more to this than meets the eye, IMO!

128044218_Constructiondetail.jpg.e0c0656caa7a690ecf676666bb88febf.jpg

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pelmetman - 2020-11-23 6:04 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2020-11-23 6:00 PM

 

pelmetman - 2020-11-23 5:22 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2020-11-23 5:11 PM

 

pelmetman - 2020-11-23 5:00 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2020-11-23 4:30 PM

 

pelmetman - 2020-11-23 3:10 PM

 

colin - 2020-11-23 9:57 AM

 

pelmetman - 2020-11-23 8:33 AM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-11-22 7:32 PM

 

teflon2 - 2020-11-22 5:15 PM

 

Evidence seems to be showing that the French makers of Celotex Rs 5000 used in the cladding ot Grenfelll tower deliberately altered the test panels in order to gain certification for high rise buildings. More information is on the Grenfell inquiry website look at what we learned today to see the level they were willing to go to to obtain the contract for Grenfell Tower.

 

Ooooh ... Thats not what the haters wanted to hear ... Awful ... For them

 

I wonder if Bullet Liar and Co will start slagging the French off? ;-) ..........

 

Fancy a bet? :D ..........

 

The certificate for the cladding was signed off 4 years before the brittish firm Celotex was taken over by a french company.

 

So it's those brittish folk who are guilty ;-) ........

 

Not Boris or the Tories B-) .......

Bit hypocritical when you readily accuse others that mention the Tory council, gov, MP's or PM's of 'weaponising' Grenfell, yet here you are doing exactly that. *-)

 

Did you not weaponise Grenfell? *-) .......

No.....it's what you accused others of doing purely because they stated irrefutable fact that the council is Tory. And please don't start your usual disrupting bringing Covid into it as thats discussed in other threads relating to that matter.

 

More Bullet Lies *-) ......

 

1........Did the Tory council make the cladding?......

 

2........Did the Tory council tell the contractors to use it?...

 

3........Did the Tory council tell the fire brigade to tell folk to stay inside a burning building? 8-) ......

1) Please show my post where I said they did. Post it up please.

2) It would need to be approved by them.

3) Read the testimony Cotton gave to the inquiry.

 

You're getting all worked up into a frenzy and need to wind your neck back in. 72 people died in this horrific fire yet you're more concerned about your precious Tory party and government.

 

I'm not the NASTY bloke who has spent years trying to blame the Tories ;-) ......

I answered your questions but you haven't shown anything suggesting i've said the cladding was made by a Tory council. So you were just lying.

 

Do yourself a favour and buy a mirror .....HATER (lol) (lol) (lol) ........

Bookmark this link; https://www.debate.org/opinions/is-haters-a-stupid-word

 

"This is a totally retarded expression and used by total retards only. It sounds like something a little crybaby would say just because they can’t get their way."

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Bulletguy - 2020-11-23 4:30 PM

 

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colin - 2020-11-23 9:57 AM

 

pelmetman - 2020-11-23 8:33 AM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-11-22 7:32 PM

 

teflon2 - 2020-11-22 5:15 PM

 

Evidence seems to be showing that the French makers of Celotex Rs 5000 used in the cladding ot Grenfelll tower deliberately altered the test panels in order to gain certification for high rise buildings. More information is on the Grenfell inquiry website look at what we learned today to see the level they were willing to go to to obtain the contract for Grenfell Tower.

 

Ooooh ... Thats not what the haters wanted to hear ... Awful ... For them

 

I wonder if Bullet Liar and Co will start slagging the French off? ;-) ..........

 

Fancy a bet? :D ..........

 

The certificate for the cladding was signed off 4 years before the brittish firm Celotex was taken over by a french company.

 

So it's those brittish folk who are guilty ;-) ........

 

Not Boris or the Tories B-) .......

Bit hypocritical when you readily accuse others that mention the Tory council, gov, MP's or PM's of 'weaponising' Grenfell, yet here you are doing exactly that. *-)

 

Did you not weaponise Grenfell? *-) .......

No.....it's what you accused others of doing purely because they stated irrefutable fact that the council is Tory. And please don't start your usual disrupting bringing Covid into it as thats discussed in other threads relating to that matter.

 

More Bullet Lies *-) ......

 

1........Did the Tory council make the cladding?......

 

2........Did the Tory council tell the contractors to use it?...

 

3........Did the Tory council tell the fire brigade to tell folk to stay inside a burning building? 8-) ......

1) Please show my post where I said they did. Post it up please.

2) It would need to be approved by them.

3) Read the testimony Cotton gave to the inquiry.

 

You're getting all worked up into a frenzy and need to wind your neck back in. 72 people died in this horrific fire yet you're more concerned about your precious Tory party and government.

 

I'm not the NASTY bloke who has spent years trying to blame the Tories ;-) ......

I answered your questions but you haven't shown anything suggesting i've said the cladding was made by a Tory council. So you were just lying.

 

Do yourself a favour and buy a mirror .....HATER (lol) (lol) (lol) ........

Bookmark this link; https://www.debate.org/opinions/is-haters-a-stupid-word

 

"This is a totally retarded expression and used by total retards only. It sounds like something a little crybaby would say just because they can’t get their way."

 

Snigger >:-) .......

 

 

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Guest pelmetman
Brian Kirby - 2020-11-23 6:38 PM

 

colin - 2020-11-23 5:20 PM

pelmetman - 2020-11-23 5:06 PM

Seems to me they didn't have much choice given our current Hate a Tory climate *-) ......

In my view the worst culprit is "Elf & Safety" in our emergency services that caused the most deaths :-| .......

The fire service had no idea a bunch of numpties in the council had allowed a corrupt private company to turn a safe building into a death trap. Not long after, we had a fire in a multi story building near me, no deaths, the standard fire response worked fine and the fire was contained within one flat.

But..................... I have a suspicion young Mr Roper may have spoken out of turn, and may have his knickers in a but of a twist. I'm not convinced he has understood what was done. I have a copy of a technical Compliance Guide published by Celotex in 2015, specifically dealing with the use of Celotex RS5000 in buildings exceeding 18 metres in height. It illustrates exactly the way in which flammable cladding can promote external fire spread in tall buildings, and illustrates the form of construction used for the fire test. The test rig was assembled under supervision at the BRE (ex Building Research Establishment) fire test site (ex Fire Research Station). The description of the product test includes the following:

 

"Celotex RS5000

 

Celotex RS5000 is a premium performance solution and is the first PIR board to successfully test to BS 8414-2:2005 for

rainscreen cladding systems meeting the performance criteria set out in BR 135.

 

The system tested was as follows:

? 12mm Fibre Cement Panels

? Supporting aluminium brackets and vertical rails

? 100mm Celotex RS5000

? 12mm Non-combustible sheathing board

? 100mm SFS System

? 2 x 12.5mm plasterboard

 

Fire stopping was provided by ventilated horizontal fire breaks positioned at each floor slab edge and above the hearth opening. Vertical non-ventilated fire breaks were provided at the edges of both the main face and the return wing and around the hearth opening.

 

The fire performance and classification report issued only relates to the components detailed and constructed in figure 4. Any changes to the components listed and construction method set out in figure 4 will need to be considered by the building designer.

 

Ventilated fire barriers comprised of stonewool insulation with Class O aluminium foil facings and a

continuous bonded intumescent strip. Non-ventilated fire barriers comprised of stonewool insulation

with Class O aluminium foil facings specifically intended to fully fill the void."

 

My bold and italics above.

 

The attached .jpg picture was taken from this guide. There is no secrecy regarding the inclusion of the magnesium oxide board in the test rig. The above waring in bold regarding the validity of the test and its reliance on cladding as installed following exactly the construction of the test rig is quite clear. The clear implication is that if the "designer" wishes to substitute alternative materials for those used by Celotex in their test, a new test must be carried out to verify performance of the new materials. It is abundantly clear this was not done. Usually any such claims to fire resistance/incombustibility would be examined during the Building Regulations Procedure. On present evidence, no-one seems to have been responsible for giving that approval. There is still more to this than meets the eye, IMO!

 

Thanks for the update Brian ;-) .......

 

Although it appears to be the folk that were involved your industry that were at fault 8-) .......

 

 

 

 

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pelmetman - 2020-11-23 7:22 PM.........................Thanks for the update Brian ;-) .......

Although it appears to be the folk that were involved your industry that were at fault 8-) .......

Bit inevitable Dave, it was a construction project, so the construction industry was inevitable involved!

 

The problem is that the construction industry involves all kinds of people from blokes with brooms and shovels to surveyors engineers, architects, and cost consultants, including all the various tradespeople between. It also involves central and local government.

 

But, the issue is this. Where a building is over 18 metres in height the Building Regulations say that the "external walls of the building shall adequately resist the spread of fire over the walls".

 

There is a system of approvals designed to ensure that the designs comply with the Regulations (approval), and the execution of the work complies with the designs (site inspection). The approvals can only be granted by either the Building Control department of the appropriate Local Authority, or by an Approved Inspector (usually an authorised private firm of surveyors).

 

Work carried out without approval, or work that does not comply with the approved designs, can legally be demolished at the building owner's expense by the Local Authority, though it is usual to first serve an enforcement notice - usually on the builder - requiring rectification of the defective work.

 

If the contravention is not then remedied the building owner or the builder become liable to prosecution, with no limit on the fine that can be imposed. Where the approval was given by an approved inspector the inspector is legally responsible for advising builder and building owner of the contravention, but where remedial action is not taken, the approved inspector has no power to enforce. In that case the inspector is obliged to cancel their approval and hand the non-compliance to the local authority to enforce as required.

 

Now, RBKC has its own Building Control department, whose inspectors made repeated visits to the site during execution of the cladding work. Those people are supposed to be sufficiently expert in building work to spot non-compliance with both the regulations and the approved designs. It seems they did neither, which implies they did not notice the non-compliance (which seems incredible), or were instructed "not to make waves". It also seems that RBKC did not approve the plans for the cladding work, but it is presently unclear who actually did approve them, and if no-one, why not.

 

Few, if any, builders will touch work that requires approval before they are shown the approval documents. Rydon are a largish firm of builders who had been employed on a "design and construct" basis, so that obtaining approval to their design became their primary responsibility. As such, they will have their own legal advisors. The RBKC Tenant Management Organisation seems to have been hopelessly out of their depth with this project, and have now effectively sacked themselves and handed their responsibilities back to RBKC.

 

I am profoundly suspicious that the Grenfell enquiry is a device to park the Grenfell enquiry in the long grass for as long as possible. That suspicion was reinforced by the decision to conduct the "political" part of the enquiry before the technical phase. The fire itself, despite repeated attempts to politicise it, is not a political issue. It is a purely technical issue to be settled by investigation of who granted approval - and if none was obtained - why not, and why people commenced work in the absence of an approval. That is all that needs to be understood, because everything that followed flows from those decisions. Whoever made those decisions bears responsibility for the fire.

 

The way in which a fire might spread up the outside of a building was well known and understood before the Grenfell cladding project was designed, leave alone before cladding work began. So, the central question remains how flammable cladding and insulation could, possibly, have been installed on that scale, with no-one apparently able to answer those four questions. The whole thing absolutely reeks of blind eyes being turned, from RBKC down!

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