Fiat wheel bearings

[ROND]

I have just had my motorhome serviced and the garage informed me that both my front wheel bearings are shot, the van is a Autotrail Appache 700 on a Fiat ducato 2.8 base, the fitter also informed me that motorhomes are prone to it because of the extra weight.

The van is just coming up to 3 years old and has done 32,000 miles and the gaurantee doesnt cover the wheel bearings so i am informed !!!!!!!

I would expect a commercial based vehicle or a car even to at least double that before needing wheel bearings.

Has anybody else had problems with the bearings on thier vehicles.

RD

[Guest starspirit]

Can't quite see how a motorhome is heavier on front wheel bearings than a commercial vehicle when the axle weights are within manufacturers allowance (assuming they are?) as most of the weight and weight transfer on corners is surely on the rear wheel bearings?

 

I would be inclined to politely (you want their help!) contact Fiat PDQ, dealer and/or company direct, if it were me to ascertain the true position.

[Brian Kirby]

I agree with Richard.  However, since both sides are shot, have you weighed the front axle at a weighbridge when fully laden?  It does seem unusual, and I'd have thought MMM and this forum would be full of similar gripes if it were that common.

[Terrytraveller]

Hi Ron,

 

I would be inclined to get a second opinion. Most wheel bearings are adjustable to take up any free side to side movement.

 

The bearings are conical in shape and the bearing is adjusted by a turning the castellated nut to tighten the wheel bearing until no play is evident, then backing the nut off one or two castellations. The wheel should spin freely with no side or up and down movement.

 

When spinning the wheel there should be no bearing noise at all, noise from the bearing would indicate a broken cage or bearing or damaged/pitted ball race track.

 

I have changed wheel bearings on numerous cars including front wheel drive and its a simple job to carry out. Sometimes you might want a universal bearing puller but not always.

 

Regards Terry

[ROND]

Hello all,

Thanks for the replies, I have not weighed the van at al but it certainly is not loaded on the front so shouldnt be too heavy but you never know. As for changing the bearings from what i have been told you need a press to get the bearings off a fiat and the garage have a 20 ton press and at times they have needed more, so it sounds a bit more than the usual conical bearing you could change easily. The quote is £408 which to me is very steep and i shall certainly be asking Fiat questions.

RD

[Guest starspirit]

I don't think adjustable taper roller bearings are used on Sevel van front wheel bearings because the hubs contain the driveshafts and, if memory serves, tapered rollers don't work so well on driven wheels due to the engine torque?

 

I think they employ a pair of ball, or maybe fixed taper roller, races which are torqued up to quite a high pressure and might well need a decent puller to get them off the axle?

 

Be aware that if you have a go yourself and get one of the races jammed you will then be up a certain creek 'moins pagaie' and if you do get the old 'uns off you might then need a hydraulic press to push the new 'uns on?

 

A simple and quick enough job if you have the kit and it should not be anything like that silly price I would have thought?

[Brambles]

Hi, I agree with Terry and you should get a second opinion. Also the price seems very steep. Needing a press to get the old bearings off and refitting is standard and should not be a reason to bump the price up...its a straight forward job with standard garage tools, but at your mileage any wear is extremely premature.

J.

 

 

[terry1956]

Hi, you are being taken for a ride, take the motorhome out of the place, jack up one wheel at a time, and like terry as already stated have a look yourself. check with the wheel on for any play on the hub. try rocking the wheel from side to side (have someone holding the steering wheel when doing this) look and feel for play. roll the wheel round and check to see if you can hear any noice, you will know the sound when you hear it. If you are unsure take the wheel off and turn the hub fast and check for play and noice, removing bearings is an easy job but you will need a good puller.

DEPENDING ON YOUR SKILL LEVELS AND the tools you have,(remember you can always hire a puller)DIY. Or just ring round over £400 pounds is very high for this job.

terry

[Basil]

Whilst I believe the price quoted to be too high, it will take more than a simple puller to fit the new bearings. They are not taper bearings but parellel and are pressed into the hub with a ten tonne press not an easy DIY job unless you have such equipment at your disposal. You can normally remove them by destroying the old ones but it is nigh impossible to fit the new ones without damage unless you use the proper equipment. If you can remove the hub and carrier then it is possible that a local machine shop would be able to remove and refit the new ones for you.

But I am sure you can get them done less costly than you have been quoted.

 

Bas

[Brambles]

Follow link (hope it works) and about 6th post down....

J.

 

http://www.practicalmotorhome.com/chatforum/index.asp?option=reply&replyto=4

 

EDIT - have copied the post and reply below.

 

22 Mar, 2007 09:28 GMT

 

I have just had my 2002 camper in for its MOT. It failed on front wheel bearing excessive play at ONLY "13,000 miles". Peugeot customer service dont want to know ( out of warranty) but this is surely premature failure on what is after all a commercial spec vehicle. The bearings should have a life of at least 50.000 miles. More bad news is that the local dealer wants around £1200 to do the job as they say it will need stub axles and hubs as well as bearings on both sides !!! if anybody has a boxer out there check your bearings asap. Mine do not seem to have any trace of grease in them at all although this is difficult to confirm till strip down. Any help in solving this catastrophe much appreciated or am I to fork out £1200.

 

22 Mar, 2007 09:28 GMT

 

I had the same problem atan MOT station when they said the front wheel bearing had excessive play. I inspected them and could find any so i took it to another test station and they said they were ok and passed them. Some testers have pet things Ive used test stations over the years and found one is keen on brake pipes the other on shock absorbers. Have them checked out before you part with your money the mileage is very low for wheel bearing to go 50k onwards then i would agree. Pete

 

 

 

 

[sax]

Hello All,

I have an A/S Peugeot Boxer Symbol with a 1.9 Diesel Turbo engine.

 

Not so long ago, after reading that the Peugeot was suspect, regarding disc pads crumbling I took the vehicle to my local tyre/brake dealer to investigate an ominous noise from up front. It was suggested that a wheel bearing was at fault.

 

I am aware of the connection between brands.

 

Three miles away, on the way to my local dealer for repairs ( when only another mile further to go) the thing seized and the the poor vehicle threw itself into a 90o/o stop and nearly had me on my side or into the retaining wall of the cut through of a bypass that used to be an old railway line

 

It was a seized, sealed, wheelbearing (nearside). Well under 20,000 miles.

I was extremely miffed because with taxi fares and costs it was towards £300 (for one sealed unit). I fondly remember for the the days of jacking up, dismantling, repacking with grease etc and being on ones way.

 

I am rather dissolusioned with modern practice.

Mike

[Don Madge]

Ron,

 

As you know I had a front nearside wheel bearing go in Portugal a couple of weeks ago. It had done 46,000 miles and that's the first time I've had a bearing go in 25 years of motorhoming.

 

What I don't understand is why you did not hear the bearing, ours made a hell of a noise. When the van was jacked up and they spun the wheel you could hear the bearing was on it's way out.

 

The bearing is like a large collar.

 

Our bearing was replaced in 48 hours at a lot better price than you were quoted.

Don

[terry1956]

Hi all, As Don states one can hear the bearing, AS TO IT being a DIY, I did state if one had the skill and the tools, which lucky for me I have, But it got be that the wheel bearings have been set up wrong in the first place, ie no free play. This will lead to them failing after a very short time. ALL it could be like someone stated above the dealers making money from this. Sometime back it was ford disc brakes that always needed replacing, and they failed transits all the time on this, on the most part people just pay up. Maybe dealers see motorhomes as cash cows, try ringing up a place that just servicers vans and see what they price the bearing job at.

Don you may of been lucky to have had your bearing done outside of the UK, hope you had both sides done, if not get the other side done next time you are out there.

terry

[Don Madge]

terry1956 - 2007-03-25 10:17 AM

 

Hi all, As Don states one can hear the bearing, AS TO IT being a DIY, I did state if one had the skill and the tools, which lucky for me I have, But it got be that the wheel bearings have been set up wrong in the first place, ie no free play. This will lead to them failing after a very short time. ALL it could be like someone stated above the dealers making money from this. Sometime back it was ford disc brakes that always needed replacing, and they failed transits all the time on this, on the most part people just pay up. Maybe dealers see motorhomes as cash cows, try ringing up a place that just servicers vans and see what they price the bearing job at.

Don you may of been lucky to have had your bearing done outside of the UK, hope you had both sides done, if not get the other side done next time you are out there.

terry

 

Terry,

 

Thanks for the input.

 

I'm not all that mechanically minded these days so.

 

Why do I need to get the other bearing changed?

 

I was shown the old bearing and there was no way of adjusting it. It was just a collar nothing like the old tapered roller bearings.

 

Don

[Guest starspirit]

Parallel bearings do not have any free play and must be torqued up to the correct tension to prevent wear - any movement is wear - and will soon lead to failure.

 

Taper roller bearings do have free play which is usually, but not always, identifiable and adjustable by a finely castellated nut and split pin or similar variable position tab lock washer.

 

It is good safety practice to always use a new washer and / or split pin after adjustment.

 

Without a very powerful extractor and press this is not really a DIY home job, however if you are brave and have enough time you can usually eventually get the old bearings off the axle with a combination of heat and brute force - but there is always the risk of collateral damage.

 

Similarly if you warm (not too hot) the new bearings they might just slip onto the axle - but get it wrong and the bearing will cool and jam solid leaving you well and truly stuffed.

[Brambles]

WHY?

Why get the other bearing replaced? Why, should it also be suspect just because the other side went?

J.

[Brambles]

There is a lot of misinfomation here regarding hub bearings. Its not so much wrong but just misleading.

Incidently, for the ducato 2002 on, the hub bearing is very unlikely to be a parallel bearing, it will be a double taper roller bearing sealed unit.

J.

 

[Brian Kirby]

ROND - 2007-03-24 5:05 PM I have just had my motorhome serviced and the garage informed me that both my front wheel bearings are shot, the van is a Autotrail Appache 700 on a Fiat ducato 2.8 base, the fitter also informed me that motorhomes are prone to it because of the extra weight. The van is just coming up to 3 years old and has done 32,000 miles and the gaurantee doesnt cover the wheel bearings so i am informed !!!!!!! I would expect a commercial based vehicle or a car even to at least double that before needing wheel bearings. Has anybody else had problems with the bearings on thier vehicles. RD

Ron

Re the last bit about what the guarantee covers, have you checked what it actually says for yourself - it's just that I note you say "doesnt cover the wheel bearings so i am informed".  Could the informant have a bit of an interest in the outcome?  May pay to check.

Also, if the van is still legally usable, why not try another dealership?  The bearing is, I assume, the same for Fiat, Peugeot and Citroen badged versions, so any competent dealership, or independent specialist, could do it if it is confirmed outside the scope of the warranty. 

It might also be worth checking on the cost of parts just to see how much of the bill is labour.  You shouldn't have to hawk the van around all of them.  Just ring/visit, and ask how much to change the front hub bearings for the vehicle year/model you have.  The charge does seem very high for what should be involved.

[Don Madge]

Brian,

 

The bearing they fitted to my Fiat came in a Citroen packaging.

 

Don

[Guest starspirit]

Brambles - 2007-03-25 11:03 AM

 

There is a lot of misinfomation here regarding hub bearings. Its not so much wrong but just misleading.

Incidently, for the ducato 2002 on, the hub bearing is very unlikely to be a parallel bearing, it will be a double taper roller bearing sealed unit.

J.

 

My understanding is that all the Boxer / Ducato front wheel bearings are indeed double taper roller bearings with a spacer in between.

They must be set up to the correct clearance using a dial gauge and shims which will give a very small predetermined amount of end float following which they are not designed to be adjustable.

[Brambles]

Starspirit, on the 2002 on ducato it is a sealed unit and pressed into the hub housing using a press and retrained for safety with a circlip. The axle part off hub assembly is then pressed into the bearing centre. The Drive shaft then goes through the hub axle from inside and fixed with a nut which is torqued to a specific setting and staked. The bearing is really held in place by being an interference fit, hence why a 10 ton press is needed. The clearance /preload in the bearing is set by manufacturing tolerances.

 

Jon.

[ROND]

Hello All

Yes i can now hear the bearings rumbling away, as the fitter said it has probably been a gradual build up and i havent realised the change of noise over a long period. The price quoted was worked on the worst case scenario of having to use a bigger press as sometimes happens with them and was priced individualy but he did say that there might be some labour overlap and it might be a bit less, It is a Fiat main dealer and they have been pretty good for the past 3 years.

As for the gaurantee, no i havenet read it myself yet as the paperwork is in the motorhome and i havent been out to get it yet but i will do and will certainly be making noises.

Many thanks for all the replies and i hope that this is not a common problem as i was told by the fitter.

[Brambles]

It is possible the bearing centre part is consructed from two parts and a softer ring where the two halves mate in the center. This ring is compresed when the axle nut is torqued up setting the preload. If you detect freeplay in the bearing, it is possible all that is required is for the axle nut to be replaced (because of the staking) and re torqued. Some mechanics may be failing bearings for excessive free play when initially the tightening was not done correctly during manufacture. The problem is he does not know if that is the case or the bearing is wearing, so to be on the safe side he will say you need new bearings. It is no skin off his nose as he is not paying. On high mileage, say above 50K I would possibly agree with replacing, but on low mileage it is more likely the nut was not tightened correctly, say for example some debri or swarf on mating surfaces which later gets compessed into the mating surfaces through use and causes slight free play.

J.

 

My post is out of sync and is a follow up to previous post with extra info.

 

Ron, sorry to hear diagnoses is correct...both sides at same time is unusual and I would take up with Fiat. Hopefully covered under your guaranatee but f not, I would really fight it out with them as being prematuire failure and parts should be expected to last longer. Good Luck.

[terry1956]

Hi brambles, is there a better way of checking these bearings ??? I see where you are coming from, and its a bit like the old days of repacking the bearings. But if there is play in the bearing runs and the bearing run is breaking up resetting the nut is just not going to do the job. What I don,t understand is why the bearing is failing in the 1st place, is it both sides ??

is it just bad luck. bad material, citroen,s etc have been obtainiong parts from china for a few years fiat the same, and I know when my last company when that way, the finish was rubbish, and most went in the bin at £900 a shot.

Don in answer, if one bearing as gone the other is sure to follow, having the same load etc placed on it,

Maybe best to just get the job done, fiat labour costs out at around £50 to £55 pounds in exeter, so with that and parts etc maybe £400 is on the ball.

terry

[colin]

We seem to be heading to the usual 'a little knowledge is a dangerous thing'.

Having inspected and/or replaced anynumber of this type of bearing or similiar over the years I would like to say the following. Any competant mechanic should be able to tell if it's the bearing shot or problems with the preload, but thats not to say some will not cover thier back by recomending changing bearing even if preload is suspected.

As to the price, at main dealer labour rates I would think thats a 'normal' price (just wish I could get paid that much!)

As to how long they should last, I would hope for 100,000miles but anything over 50,000would be acceptable, the milages posted above are not acceptable IMHO.