Fiat wheel bearings

[Guest peter]

Hi Rond.

I can't see how you can spin the front wheel fast enough to detect a worn bearing because of the drag on the dick from the brakes. What you can probably hear is the pads scraping on the disk. Have you had it MOT'ed recently? as they will certainly find it. If you can't hear it as you are driving it probably has not gone. If its that bad you would be able to move the wheel by gripping it at top and bottom, jacked up of course. These vans are designed to do 40K miles per year so the likelihood of them failing is extremely remote and I would suggest you are being spun a yarn. If you want to find out if they've gone get it MOT'ed or take it for a spin to get the grease warmed up, then take it round a few bends not too slowly and you will hear them. If it's noisy on a lefhander it's the R/H one as the load comes off and gives it play, and the opposite for a righthander.

I agree with Starspirit that the bearings are parralel with no free play at all and are torqued to a very high rate well over 200FtLbs, so if you are going to do them you must have a big torque wrench. I would not advise doing it unless you have some substantial kit as this is one b*stard of a job. If you do manage to get the old ones out the new ones will drop in if you put them in the freezer for a few hours and put the hub in an oven to warm it up.

But my money is on a certain rip off attempt.

[Don Madge]

peter - 2007-03-25 9:10 PM

 

Hi Rond.

I can't see how you can spin the front wheel fast enough to detect a worn bearing because of the drag on the dick from the brakes. What you can probably hear is the pads scraping on the disk. Have you had it MOT'ed recently? as they will certainly find it. If you can't hear it as you are driving it probably has not gone. If its that bad you would be able to move the wheel by gripping it at top and bottom, jacked up of course. These vans are designed to do 40K miles per year so the likelihood of them failing is extremely remote and I would suggest you are being spun a yarn. If you want to find out if they've gone get it MOT'ed or take it for a spin to get the grease warmed up, then take it round a few bends not too slowly and you will hear them. If it's noisy on a lefhander it's the R/H one as the load comes off and gives it play, and the opposite for a righthander.

I agree with Starspirit that the bearings are parralel with no free play at all and are torqued to a very high rate well over 200FtLbs, so if you are going to do them you must have a big torque wrench. I would not advise doing it unless you have some substantial kit as this is one b*stard of a job. If you do manage to get the old ones out the new ones will drop in if you put them in the freezer for a few hours and put the hub in an oven to warm it up.

But my money is on a certain rip off attempt.

 

Peter,

 

I'm no mechanic but I can assure you when they spun the left hand wheel by hand you could hear the bearing rumbling, loudly. When they spun the right hand wheel no rumbling at all.

 

So that's your theory up the creek.

 

Don

[Guest starspirit]

peter - 2007-03-25 9:10 PM

 

Hi Rond.

I can't see how you can spin the front wheel fast enough to detect a worn bearing because of the drag on the dick from the brakes. What you can probably hear is the pads scraping on the disk. Have you had it MOT'ed recently? as they will certainly find it. If you can't hear it as you are driving it probably has not gone. If its that bad you would be able to move the wheel by gripping it at top and bottom, jacked up of course. These vans are designed to do 40K miles per year so the likelihood of them failing is extremely remote and I would suggest you are being spun a yarn. If you want to find out if they've gone get it MOT'ed or take it for a spin to get the grease warmed up, then take it round a few bends not too slowly and you will hear them. If it's noisy on a lefhander it's the R/H one as the load comes off and gives it play, and the opposite for a righthander.

I agree with Starspirit that the bearings are parralel with no free play at all and are torqued to a very high rate well over 200FtLbs, so if you are going to do them you must have a big torque wrench. I would not advise doing it unless you have some substantial kit as this is one b*stard of a job. If you do manage to get the old ones out the new ones will drop in if you put them in the freezer for a few hours and put the hub in an oven to warm it up.

But my money is on a certain rip off attempt.

 

Have to agree with Don. You can generally hear a rough bearing when spinning a front wheel drive wheel by hand and if you can 'feel' it too it is really bad.

 

Wrong way round Peter. Metal expands with heat and shrinks with cold and you need the axle shrunk and the bearing expanded to get them on.

 

Nevertheless not a job I would try these days without a bl##dy great hydraulic press to hand.

[colin]

If the bearings well gone you will proboly be able to hear it rumble when spinning jacked up wheel, last one I changed about a month ago did just that, but one I did early janurary didn't.

[Brambles]

ARRRRRRGH, here we go again with miss-information.

 

Peter is right about the heat. The bearings are pressed into the housing that is attached to the suspension (The pillar). It is an interference fit, and the axle is not such a tight fit into center bore of bearing and can be pressed in (or removed) with a suitable threaded puller.

However I do not entirely agree with rest of post hearing them while driving....only if really bad. Incidently torque for nut is just over 300 Ft lbs.

[Guest peter]

starspirit - 2007-03-25 9:34 PM

 

peter - 2007-03-25 9:10 PM

 

Hi Rond.

I can't see how you can spin the front wheel fast enough to detect a worn bearing because of the drag on the dick from the brakes. What you can probably hear is the pads scraping on the disk. Have you had it MOT'ed recently? as they will certainly find it. If you can't hear it as you are driving it probably has not gone. If its that bad you would be able to move the wheel by gripping it at top and bottom, jacked up of course. These vans are designed to do 40K miles per year so the likelihood of them failing is extremely remote and I would suggest you are being spun a yarn. If you want to find out if they've gone get it MOT'ed or take it for a spin to get the grease warmed up, then take it round a few bends not too slowly and you will hear them. If it's noisy on a lefhander it's the R/H one as the load comes off and gives it play, and the opposite for a righthander.

I agree with Starspirit that the bearings are parralel with no free play at all and are torqued to a very high rate well over 200FtLbs, so if you are going to do them you must have a big torque wrench. I would not advise doing it unless you have some substantial kit as this is one b*stard of a job. If you do manage to get the old ones out the new ones will drop in if you put them in the freezer for a few hours and put the hub in an oven to warm it up.

But my money is on a certain rip off attempt.

 

Have to agree with Don. You can generally hear a rough bearing when spinning a front wheel drive wheel by hand and if you can 'feel' it too it is really bad.

 

Wrong way round Peter. Metal expands with heat and shrinks with cold and you need the axle shrunk and the bearing expanded to get them on.

 

Nevertheless not a job I would try these days without a bl##dy great hydraulic press to hand.

Wrong Richard.....the bearing goes inside the hub so if it's cold and therefore smaller, it will drop in more easilly. I'm not going to get into an arguement over this. So I will defer to your greater wisdom. I can't believe that you guy's can accept that "both" wheelbearings can go at about 23K miles. Incredible.

[Brambles]

It surely does seem strange to have both go at such a low mileage. Ron, are you sure the rumbling was not something else, and may have just been the CV joints rumbling a bit being at an acute angle with the suspension hanging down?

 

 

P.S, it is easy to get confused between hub and axle. The bit that is attached to the suspension holds the bearing. ( the outer sleeve of bearing). The axle with teh flange that goes through center is the bit the wheel bolts on. Confusion seems to be arising because some are refferringto the axle as the Hub and others the other bit as the hub.

[Guest starspirit]

Wrong Richard.....the bearing goes inside the hub so if it's cold and therefore smaller, it will drop in more easilly. I'm not going to get into an arguement over this. So I will defer to your greater wisdom. I can't believe that you guy's can accept that "both" wheelbearings can go at about 23K miles. Incredible.

 

Whilst it is unusual, bearings can go at any mileage specially if they are faulty or lacked grease from new. That's why we have a guarantee.

The hub needs expanding to take the bearing whilst the axle needs shrinking to accept the bearing and I suppose it all depends whether the bearing kit is a one piece unit to be pressed in complete or whether the races can be pressed on first and the bearing cages slipped in on final assembly. It's so long since I wrestled with wheel bearings I can't really remember exactly.

[Brian Kirby]

Ron

If you get this done by the Fiat agent, remember the parts removed remain your property.  You may have to insist, but get the garage to set the bearings aside and, if possible, identify left and right bearings.

Simple inspection may tell the story, and the garage may be prepared to take this up with Fiat on your behalf.  If not, if you are a member of AA or RAC, contact them to see if they can suggest anyone who could carry out an investigation.  I've no idea what the cost of this might be, so it may be worth finding out before you go too far!!

In the meantime contact Fiat technical (make sure you get the commercial vehicle tech, not cars), and see if they'd be willing to send one of their area technical troubleshooters (they have a name for them, can't remember the proper title) to the garage in question.  Tell them you've been in contact with a motorhome internet forum, and there are now a lot of people around very worried about Fiat bearings! 

Ideally, you want the Fiat teccho at the garage while the bearings are extracted (which may take some arranging, but the garage should also know who to contact), and certainly you need to be there to meet him, just so you can make sure he doesn't disappear with them!  Since both bearings seem to have failed very prematurely, Fiat should be prepared to make a contribution to the repar cost, but they may want the evidence.  If he wants to take them away for examination, try to get him to take just one, leaving you with the other.  If Fiat quibble, ask if they'll accept an independent report on the bearings as evidence of defective manufacture, and agree to pay for the repair, and the report, if it proves their part is defective.  If you've been able to hang onto one bearing, at least you'll still have something to get tested.

Needless to say, this will all take time, but my understanding (from my local Fiat service centre) is they are not unreasonable over accepting liability if they can see that what went wrong was their fault.  I think you'll have to pay the intial bill at the garage, though!  Good luck.

[ROND]

Thanks to everybody for some usefull info.

I havent tried spinning the wheel by hand i can ear it whilst driving. I shant be trying to do the job myself far too complicated for my unlimited skills and tools but i shall be chasing Fiat.

RD

[Guest peter]

This may sound stupid at first, but have you checked that your wheel nuts are tight. As loose wheel nuts will give a similar noise.

[ericlesley]

I have the same problem, my motorhome is a Trigano which is a panel van conversion on a 2.3 diesel Ducato less than 3 years old with 35000 miles on the clock. It has always been serviced to Fiat specifications by a local Renault main dealer as the nearest Fiat dealer is 20 miles away. I had been told by the Renault garage that at least one wheel bearing had gone but they could not repair it as they didnt have the necessary press.

On taking it to the Fiat dealership I was told they couldnt accept a Renault diagnosisand that I had to pay £44.00 for a half hour diagnosis.

They told me both sides had bearings gone and it would cost around £1100.00 to fix them. Fiat dont give a specific guarantee on bearings and only 2 years on commercial vehicles. They couldnt tell me an average life on bearings but that they had very few Ducatos with this problem. I am having it done this week and am asking for all the removed parts and I have every intention of taking it up via the AA as I cannot believe that a commercial vehicles wheel bearings would fail with such a low mielaege. I cant see especially with a panel van conversion that it can be overloaded at the front end as it only has 2 OAPs in the cab plus the engine , gearbox etc which it should have been designed to take.

Eric

[Guest peter]

£1100.00 to replace wheel bearings. As victor would say "I don't believe it". Looks like someone has smelt money. You've been had my friend.

Especially as these vans are designed to do 40K miles per year.

[Brian Kirby]

Eric

Assuming the date had nothing to do with your post, you should perhaps get the quote broken down into parts and labour. 

There will be standard Fiat timings for replacing the wheel bearings, and your cost appears to be way more than twice Ron's quote for the same job.  Why not speak to Fiat's commercial vehicle technical department and ask them for the timings?   

There is a bit of a pong of rodent somewhere in here.  Are they possibly charging you time and mileage for taking the hubs to a place that has the necessary press, instead of just directing you there?

It is also odd that Don, Ron and now you, have all had bearings go at around the same relatively low mileage.  Do we possibly have a batch problem here?

Good luck.

[Guest peter]

Brian Kirby - 2007-04-01 10:53 PM

Eric

Assuming the date had nothing to do with your post, you should perhaps get the quote broken down into parts and labour. 

There will be standard Fiat timings for replacing the wheel bearings, and your cost appears to be way more than twice Ron's quote for the same job.  Why not speak to Fiat's commercial vehicle technical department and ask them for the timings?   

There is a bit of a pong of rodent somewhere in here.  Are they possibly charging you time and mileage for taking the hubs to a place that has the necessary press, instead of just directing you there?

It is also odd that Don, Ron and now you, have all had bearings go at around the same relatively low mileage.  Do we possibly have a batch problem here?

Good luck.

That's mileage Brian. If it was age of vehicle then batch problem might be relevant. These bearings are not made by Fiat but are probably standard parts made by a dedicated bearing company who make thousands at a time. The chance of a bad batch are very slim and would have failures in thousands and not just a few. In all my years of owning many vehicles with very high mileages I have only ever twice had bearings go, and even then it was only one side. The quality control employed by car companies these days is so stringent you would not believe.

[Brian Kirby]

peter - 2007-04-02 12:13 AM That's mileage Brian. If it was age of vehicle then batch problem might be relevant. These bearings are not made by Fiat but are probably standard parts made by a dedicated bearing company who make thousands at a time. The chance of a bad batch are very slim and would have failures in thousands and not just a few. In all my years of owning many vehicles with very high mileages I have only ever twice had bearings go, and even then it was only one side. The quality control employed by car companies these days is so stringent you would not believe.

Peter

Both these vehicles are reported at just under 3 years old, and have covered, respectively, 32,000 and 35,000 miles.  Don's is, I think, possibly in the same time/mileage frame.  Perhaps he could say?

I know about SKF, Timken et al, but all bearing manufacture involves critical heat treatment of the balls/rollers and their races.  It is not unknown for these automated processes to malfunction at times.  I have read "forensic" reports on failed bearings, albeit not in an automotive context, where it had been faulty case hardening of the races that was the cause.  The bearings had lasted for, if I remember, a couple of years, but well short of their normal service life.  The case hardened race had begun breaking away from the unhardened bearing body, causing pitting of the ballrace.  The diagnosis was loss of temperature control during manufacture.  The manufacturer was, again as I remember, SKF.

Vehicle wheel bearings usually go to the scrap heap with the vehicle.  I've only ever experienced two failures: one that went within the first 6,000 miles, and another that failed at around 30,000, but in that case the cause was poor adjustment of a taper roller bearing before I got the vehicle.  In that time, I reckon I've driven around half a million miles.  Wheel bearing failure is very rare. 

Here we have three vehicles, all approximately three years old and approximately 35,000 miles.  May be co-incidence, but how many other reports of failed Ducato wheel bearings can you remember reading about?  If the actual ages of the vehicles since manufacture, rather than since registration, are compared, the answer may be revealing.

It is of course equally possible that the fault lies elsewhere, possibly in Sevel's assembly of the hubs.  Whatever may be the actual cause, the event is so unusual I'd be very surprised if an underlying defect in workmanship or materials hasn't led to these failures.  If such a cause can be identified, it would constitute a latent defect, because even an expert would have been unable to detect it when the vehicles were originally sold.

If I'm right, the Sale of Good (Implied Terms) Act would place the respective sellers in the frame for these latent defects.  Under these circumstances the manufacturer will usually step in, pick up the pieces, and agrees to make a contribution to the cost of repair based on the use that has been gained from the vehicle to date.  In these cases, possibly somewhere around around 50% of the labour cost with replacement bearings FoC.  The repair would be unlikely to carry more that the repairer's guarantee of his workmanship and Fiat's on the new materials. 

Both Eric and Ron should talk to the AA/RAC if they're members, and/or to their respective Trading Standards departments, to see what advice they get regarding liability for defective components.  This is not, in reality, a warranty issue; it is a fitness for purpose issue. 

There may well be additional factors to be taken into account, that perhaps neither Eric nor Ron have gone into on here, and the issues will be far less "black and white" than I've made them sound.  However, I still think they should persevere with their local Fiat service centres, and with Fiat (+AA/RAC, TS etc), to see where they can get to in terms of some cost reimbursement.

[Basil]

I totally agree with you and your sentiments Brian, in an ideal world everything you say is spot on. However going by the Fiat/ Peugeot response to the well documented 5th gear problem I wouldn't hold my breath if I was one of the unfortunate recipiants of this latest possible problem I'm just glad ours has so far not suffered with either! Thats probably put the mockers on it!!

 

Bas

[ROND]

Just to update

The wheel bearings have now been replaced and no they are not covered by gaurantee. The bearings were on solid and thier press wouldnt shift them so they were taken to Bristol where they have a 60 ton press and that shifted them.

The final bill was £488 but if they couldnt have got the bearings off then it would have ben up around £1200 so be warned.

Looking back when in Portugal last October i did my usual ex lorry drivers trick of feeling the centre of the hub caps and yes the drivers side was a bit hot but i was thinking more along the lines of a binding brake and not the bearings at that time.

I think the problem is that the Ducato chasis is just not man enough for the larger motorhome body and the extra weight is too much for the bearings etc.

RD

 

 

 

[Guest starspirit]

Possibly more a combination of weight and centre of gravity as a motor home sways a lot more than a panel van due to the over wide over high body which puts a lot of lateral pressure on bearings which maybe they are not man enough for? Maybe?

[Guest peter]

Rond,

Binding brakes isn't too far off the mark as a possible cause of bearing failure. As the hub heats up, all the grease runs out or evaporates and the end result is a failed bearing in a short time. It would certainly explain both going at same time.

[Brian Kirby]

ROND - 2007-04-02 7:11 PM Just to update The wheel bearings have now been replaced and no they are not covered by gaurantee. The bearings were on solid and thier press wouldnt shift them so they were taken to Bristol where they have a 60 ton press and that shifted them. The final bill was £488 but if they couldnt have got the bearings off then it would have ben up around £1200 so be warned. Looking back when in Portugal last October i did my usual ex lorry drivers trick of feeling the centre of the hub caps and yes the drivers side was a bit hot but i was thinking more along the lines of a binding brake and not the bearings at that time. I think the problem is that the Ducato chasis is just not man enough for the larger motorhome body and the extra weight is too much for the bearings etc. RD

Ron

Do you know what they would have done for the £1200?  That is much closer to what Eric was quoted for his bearing replacements.  Unless your front axle has been run quite substantially overloaded, I really don't buy the argument that the van bearings are not up to motorhome use.

There are literally thousands of Fiat based motorhomes around Europe and I don't remember hearing of another case of front (or rear for that matter) bearing failure before Don's.  Then along came yours, then Eric's.  Many of those motorhomes are run continually overloaded, yet they still seem to survive.  The fact your workshop couldn't replace the bearings themselves also tends to indicate a low general expectation of replacing them.

Conspiracy theorist or not, I still think this co-incidence of failures is odd.  How about writing to MMM, to see if there is an emerging problem?

[Steve OReilly]

I collected my motorhome from my 'garagiste' this afternoon and was talking to him about this thread. He had no knowledge of premature failure of front wheel bearings on Sevel vans. He did mention that Renault used to have such a problem which transpired to be arcing across the bearings. He said Renault solved it with an earth wire to ground the static electricity build-up.

 

On another subject, my front tyres were almost down to the wear bars after 42,000 miles - good enough for the MOT though - and since they are now five years old I took the opportunity to replace all five. I didn't want to replace with Michelin X Camping tyres because I want to see if there are noise and ride advantages in using more modern van tyres. The ability to overload Michelin X Camping tyres is not of interest to me as I don't overload the motorhome. The new tyres are Firestone Vanhawk about which I know nothing. Any suggestions for appropriate tyre pressures if different from Michelins recommendations for theirs?

 

Steve

[Brian Kirby]

Steve

I think the only safe advice is to contact Firestone and adopt their recommended tyre pressures as manufacturer.

You'll need to give them the exact tyre type, model, size and load rating, and then either: a) the maximum permissible axle loads, or b) the actual laden axle loads, for your van.

Anything else is liable to be incorrect, and may well upset ride, safety, or durability characteristics of the Firestones.

Hope this helps.

[ROND]

Brian,

The problem they have apparently is if they cant press the wheel bearings off the hub, the garage foreman told me he has done at least 6 motorhomes and out of that they have failed to get 2 bearings off the stubs damaging them in the process so the £1200 or so estimate is for new stubs or whatever they are on, sorry im not too up to speed on the technicalities of it.

RD

[Guest peter]

You just go through them with an angle grinder, no problem and then whack e'm off with a chisel. No need for new stub axles. I think you are being fed bovine excreta Rond.